Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Which is in line with what I mean about the way Ajax play and how high up everything is, which means when it breaks down there’s more running to do to get the ball back, before the recovery/rest period in possession begins.

What my query is, is whether we will even be able to play like Ajax did in the first place to expose these flaws. I would think we’ll be more pragmatic because we aren’t close to being a dominant force in the league currently, but when/if we become so, things change dramatically and what was once necessary (conservative approach) can then be discarded as well as some of that personnel.
Are we sure added pragmatism is the approach he is going with? It's an interesting thought because I'm really not sure what ETH's idea is going to be. He's put this line out there about adapting to the players, but that could be a generic line for public consumption.

The signings of De Jong and Eriksen intrigue me because I don't get the impression Eriksen is a basic squad player. It gave me the idea that ETH might be a bit of an idealogue and is preparing to try something quite aggressive and experimental. Because rather than saying we have to be pragmatic due to the squad the other way to do it is to impress your vision upon a team no matter what with only very small compromises.

I think the rationale behind this is you immediately start building the foundations, and you find out who sinks and who swims. There is growing pain but maybe you get to the end destination quicker once you have a few transfer windows.
 
Aren't 40 million+ signings supposed to be pretty good in your project? I feel like that terminology has been used for every rumoured signing.
 
Are we sure added pragmatism is the approach he is going with? It's an interesting thought because I'm really not sure what ETH's idea is going to be. He's put this line out there about adapting to the players, but that could be a generic line for public consumption.

The signings of De Jong and Eriksen intrigue me because I don't get the impression Eriksen is a basic squad player. It gave me the idea that ETH might be a big of an idealogue and is preparing to try something quite aggressive and experimental. Because rather than saying we have to be pragmatic due to the squad the other way to do it is to impress your vision upon a team no matter what with only very small compromises.

I think the rationale behind this is you immediately start building the foundations, and you find out who sinks and who swims. There is growing pain but maybe you get to the end destination quicker once you have a few transfer windows.
I have absolutely no doubt he’ll find a roundabouts way to implement what he wants, but I think there’s a timeline and phases to it, and perhaps what we initially see won’t be what we look like a year or 18-months down the line. Consider how Klopp or Pep did it and reapply to us, incrementally altering parts of the team and becoming bolder within a timeframe.

This height issue for Martinez, for example, what if the plan is to initially get a footing in midfield and get the team up and running and then incrementally alter the whole central core, so that once we are a dominant side, Martinez then goes back into defence and we buy a proper midfielder? Martinez, by then, gets to play how he did at Ajax, and we acquire a considerably more mobile, prototypical midfield specialist with the legs to play the proper ten Hag system when we are considerably higher up the pitch, having earned that right?
 
According to some Ajax fans, this is the game that ended any thought of Lisandro as a full-time midfield option. He quickly moved back to CB and Ten Hag's quotes about him not having the legs to play midfield came out a couple of months after.

Watch Midtsjo - who isn't fast - absolutely smoke him here:


1:22 if the timestamp doesn't work

Bigger issue - again according to Ajax fans - was stamina. Also that he overcommited in midfield while having little recovery pace.

The highlights of this game show a little bit of all these issues.

If we get him, I'm sure he'll be a CB.

Thank you for the sharing. The game looks like some of our games under Ole.
 
if the Lisandro deal drags.....why not make the inquiry with Juve about de Ligt as it appears they are willing to let him leave for the right price
 
According to some Ajax fans, this is the game that ended any thought of Lisandro as a full-time midfield option. He quickly moved back to CB and Ten Hag's quotes about him not having the legs to play midfield came out a couple of months after.

Watch Midtsjo - who isn't fast - absolutely smoke him here:


1:22 if the timestamp doesn't work

Bigger issue - again according to Ajax fans - was stamina. Also that he overcommited in midfield while having little recovery pace.

The highlights of this game show a little bit of all these issues.

If we get him, I'm sure he'll be a CB.



Note to anyone who has not watched Martinez play, like myself, Don't watch this.

Sheesh, not much recovery pace on display there.
 
if the Lisandro deal drags.....why not make the inquiry with Juve about de Ligt as it appears they are willing to let him leave for the right price
Because he will cost almost twice as much and we need to replace Ronaldo on top of that.
 
Posted in the tweets thread but I think if we sign Martinez and let Ronaldo leave we'll see this:

Wouldn't be surprised to see us play a back 3 with Martinez stepping into midfield when FdJ pushes on.

I also think we'll play some sort of false 9 of either Bruno or Donny with Rashford and Sancho playing narrow outside forwards running into the space left as the false 9 pulls out.

----- Rashford - Bruno - Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Eriksen - Dalot
-- Martinez --- Maguire --- Varane

becoming

------------------ Rashford --- Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Bruno - Eriksen - Dalot
‐-------------------------- Martinez
----------‐-------- Maguire - Varane
 
Posted in the tweets thread but I think if we sign Martinez and let Ronaldo leave we'll see this:

Wouldn't be surprised to see us play a back 3 with Martinez stepping into midfield when FdJ pushes on.

I also think we'll play some sort of false 9 of either Bruno or Donny with Rashford and Sancho playing narrow outside forwards running into the space left as the false 9 pulls out.

----- Rashford - Bruno - Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Eriksen - Dalot
-- Martinez --- Maguire --- Varane

becoming

------------------ Rashford --- Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Bruno - Eriksen - Dalot
‐-------------------------- Martinez
----------‐-------- Maguire - Varane

that team will get absolutely hammered and we will never score goals
 
I have absolutely no doubt he’ll find a roundabouts way to implement what he wants, but I think there’s a timeline and phases to it, and perhaps what we initially see won’t be what we look like a year or 18-months down the line. Consider how Klopp or Pep did it and reapply to us, incrementally altering parts of the team and becoming bolder within a timeframe.

This height issue for Martinez, for example, what if the plan is to initially get a footing in midfield and get the team up and running and then incrementally alter the whole central core, so that once we are a dominant side, Martinez then goes back into defence and we buy a proper midfielder? Martinez, by then, gets to play how he did at Ajax, and we acquire a considerably more mobile, prototypical midfield specialist with the legs to play the proper ten Hag system when we are considerably higher up the pitch, having earned that right?
Pep and Klopp went full on attack from day 1 though, it caused toothing issues, I remember with Liverpool teams felt if you could survive their high intensity for 60 mins they'll tire out and you can have a go at them, and with Pep in his first season they conceded a lot on the counter till he got his 50m fullbacks to support the holding midfield.
I don't think compromising is the way to go, because I don't think you can switch from one way of playing to another just after you have the dream team. Ole tried it and it resulted in the mess last season.
 
Perpetual motion, sure, at a jogging pace - I am referring to traditional DM’s anchoring here - with very few sprints or fatiguing actions if positionally aware enough. It’s the one position on the pitch you can be a plodder and get away with it, even, so long as you’re reading of play is top notch.

But yeah, that quote has caveats when contrasting Ajax, and the Eredivisie, to us, and what we have been for a long time now, unless you believe we can push up 40 yards collectively and do what they did - with the same player briefs - straight out the gate?
We employed a young and progressive manager, don't think, he would make much use of a tradition DM's anchoring. Also as far as I understood, wouldn't it be FDJ who would be the anchor? DM and DLP are two roles that don't necessarily have to be combined with each other. Especially these days, you don't see that type very often in comparison to a few years ago with Busquets, Alonso, Carrick.

Are we sure added pragmatism is the approach he is going with? It's an interesting thought because I'm really not sure what ETH's idea is going to be. He's put this line out there about adapting to the players, but that could be a generic line for public consumption.

The signings of De Jong and Eriksen intrigue me because I don't get the impression Eriksen is a basic squad player. It gave me the idea that ETH might be a bit of an idealogue and is preparing to try something quite aggressive and experimental. Because rather than saying we have to be pragmatic due to the squad the other way to do it is to impress your vision upon a team no matter what with only very small compromises.

I think the rationale behind this is you immediately start building the foundations, and you find out who sinks and who swims. There is growing pain but maybe you get to the end destination quicker once you have a few transfer windows.
I hope, he doesn't try to outwit everybody with stuff like that... I get your thought, there might be a chance, but I don't think, we are ready for something like that. FDJ will be new to the league, has to adjust maybe. Eriksen played a pretty comfortable role at Brentford, not sure if he is ready for such an all-action approach.
I hope, we postpone the wilder experiments for next year. Stabilize the team, build confidence, maybe lay the groundwork for a new backbone for the team. Everything more ambitious should be reduced to secondary objectives in my eyes.

To close the bow to Martinez - Fortitude and you have a point - until we haven't seen anything of what ETH is going to do, it is impossible to predict anything. 3atb, Back4, Classic DM with two 8, DLP with two all action runners, Fullbacks who tuck into midfield, Wingbacks, Fullbacks needed to create chances (like at Liverpool) - there is so much possible. I still think, it would be good to add an actual DM (be just for the transition period to have one up the sleeve).

I'm happy to see Martinez join us, if he does. If not, I wouldn't be all too sad as well. 50 million is quite steep, but he is in his prime and he is a leader, we sure can do with a player like that.
 
Anyone hoping this falls through so we sign a taller faster centreback?

Or is it anyone other than Maguire required at this point.
 
Varane is tall and fast.

I like Varane, just need him fit and healthy and he'll show what he's about this season.

Issa Diop can't get a game at West Ham but I feel someone with his characteristics could be a solid player for us. Tall, fast and can use the ball well enough.
 
Why would that make them a bad comparison?

You've picked the team in the PL whose approach to defending is most similar to ETH's Ajax and said that only works for them because they do exactly what we're looking for our team to do now that we've hired ETH.
It’s a bad comparison because we were one of the teams that conceded the most chances, most corners and most errors leading to key chances in the league. Man City were the complete opposite. They were the best at all of these stats.

I can’t believe you’d even wondering why it’s a bad comparison. If we are to compare ourselves against any team in the league, Man City would be the last.

Ten Haag may well have a similar style but right now we haven’t seen anything yet. For us to go from the bottom of the table in all those key stats to top just isn’t going to happen.

We aren’t just suddenly going to stop conceding corners and set pieces because of Ten Haag. City don’t concede them because they are incredibly good at possession football and technical ability. Right now we have players who are nowhere near that level.
 
For once we're looking at a key position that will allow us to control the game from defensive areas of the pitch.
We'll be getting a defender that has an eye for defense splitting passes, is press resistant (praise the lord), can read the game well and can adequately handle large physical forwards (as has been shown in this very thread against the now leading forwards of City and Liverpool in Halaand and Nunez).

If we land this transfer (and I pray to God we do), a lot of people in here moaning about height are going to be made to look foolish.
 
Posted in the tweets thread but I think if we sign Martinez and let Ronaldo leave we'll see this:

Wouldn't be surprised to see us play a back 3 with Martinez stepping into midfield when FdJ pushes on.

I also think we'll play some sort of false 9 of either Bruno or Donny with Rashford and Sancho playing narrow outside forwards running into the space left as the false 9 pulls out.

----- Rashford - Bruno - Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Eriksen - Dalot
-- Martinez --- Maguire --- Varane

becoming

------------------ Rashford --- Sancho
Malacia - de Jong - Bruno - Eriksen - Dalot
‐-------------------------- Martinez
----------‐-------- Maguire - Varane
My goodness me. I don’t know what runs through the minds of posts like this.

We are going to go a whole season with Bruno/Donny as our false 9 striker.. :lol:
 
I like Varane, just need him fit and healthy and he'll show what he's about this season.

Issa Diop can't get a game at West Ham but I feel someone with his characteristics could be a solid player for us. Tall, fast and can use the ball well enough.

Are all the characteristics to be a solid player tall, fast and can use the ball well enough?
 
He’s most likely going to be regarded as a top player for the next few years as Argentinas starting LCB. He’s also the only defender we have really entering his prime years physically. I feel like Maguire and Varane may have already peaked but I still think they can all reach a much higher level than last season, especially if our attack and midfield actually put teams under the cosh and press them. Genuine competition across all positions is also essential towards keeping standards high as possible and Martinez is most like going to be a starter. If it doesn’t work out during the first contract just keep the talent moving until you strike gold again. Right player right club. When we learn how to sell players we should in theory have a lot of extra money coming back into the club to go towards important new signings as we rebuild the club.
 
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Erik will use him as a midfielder I feel sure.
We have enough CBs. Even with Bailly and Jones gone, we will have Varane, Lindeloff and Maguire (unfortunately).
And we have Mengi to come back.

Neither of whom are left footed
 
Are all the characteristics to be a solid player tall, fast and can use the ball well enough?

I'm not going to sit here and write an extensive list. But for me if we're replacing Maguire.... I'd want someone faster without losing ball playing or aerial ability.
 
Anyone hoping this falls through so we sign a taller faster centreback?

Or is it anyone other than Maguire required at this point.
Obviously that isn't going to happen. And we also don't know who the other targets would be if it did fall through.

But I have to say I have a bad feeling about this signing. I don't think we're obligated to be positive about every signing just because we're fans. I think it's very unlikely he has the physical attributes to be a long term first choice centre back for us.

I think the step up in competition from Dutch league to premier league will be a factor. And the fact as a team we won't be able to consistently dominate games to the extent Ajax have done in their domestic competition, which means he'll find himself more frequently in situations where his potential weaknesses could be exposed.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
Why are people so stressed about players signed before we fly on tour, can't they join the squad on their own later on.
 
According to some Ajax fans, this is the game that ended any thought of Lisandro as a full-time midfield option. He quickly moved back to CB and Ten Hag's quotes about him not having the legs to play midfield came out a couple of months after.

Watch Midtsjo - who isn't fast - absolutely smoke him here:


1:22 if the timestamp doesn't work

Bigger issue - again according to Ajax fans - was stamina. Also that he overcommited in midfield while having little recovery pace.

The highlights of this game show a little bit of all these issues.

If we get him, I'm sure he'll be a CB.

Dang. He looks like a kid chasing adult there.
 
It’s a bad comparison because we were one of the teams that conceded the most chances, most corners and most errors leading to key chances in the league. Man City were the complete opposite. They were the best at all of these stats.

I can’t believe you’d even wondering why it’s a bad comparison. If we are to compare ourselves against any team in the league, Man City would be the last.

Ten Haag may well have a similar style but right now we haven’t seen anything yet. For us to go from the bottom of the table in all those key stats to top just isn’t going to happen.

We aren’t just suddenly going to stop conceding corners and set pieces because of Ten Haag. City don’t concede them because they are incredibly good at possession football and technical ability. Right now we have players who are nowhere near that level.

Nobody said it's going to suddenly happen.

But in order for it to eventually happen you buy players who fit the team you want to become rather than the team you currently are, you start trying to play the way you want to play and you live with the inevitable growing pains and failures as you are develop in that direction.

So the fact that we aren't going to suddenly become a City-like side is irrelevant. That's still the way we're going to be trying to defend and that's still the plan that dictates the type of defender we're going to buy. So City remain the best comparison for that approach, not the worst.
 
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Nobody said it's going to suddenly happen.

But in order for it to eventually happen you buy players who fit the team you want to become rather than the team you currently are, you start trying to play the way you want to play and you live with the inevitable growing pains and failures as you are develop in that direction.

So the fact that we aren't going to suddenly become a City-like side is irrelevant. That's still the way we're going to be trying to defend and that's still the plan that dictates the type of defender we're going to buy. So City remain the best comparison for that approach, not the worst.
I understand your thinking. I hope though, that we will not forget to be a bit pragmatic about it. We don't have to make stuff more difficult than necessary. Even Pep adjusted his tiki-taka approach for the league, we shouldn't try to go from one extrem to the other one. Especially as current football isn't actually evolving this way. For me, the natural progress should go from hard to beat to dangerous when played into the cards to dominant. Don't think there are any shortcuts and we can't just skip levels only by adding a coach who play like we want to play. If we overdo the possession and turn into LvG-United, fans will be faster on the fence against ETH than by going pragmatic and maximizing what we have.

Might be also the point of the other poster, comparing us to City would only set us up for disappointment. Because not only are they using an approach that we expect ETH to employ as well, they also shaped their squad towards that idea. For years by now.
 
I'm sure it's been mentioned here already, but the De Ligt to Bayern talk reminded me about David Alaba. I remember him not being the tallest - he's 5'11". I'd class him as a pretty class defender of the modern age so just another one under 6ft to give some additional pause.
 
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