Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Fortitude said:
Would this thread be about 3 pages long without talk of his height?
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Maybe it wouldn't. But height is a factor for a CB. And we lost some aerial strength in Pogba and Matic, and lots of people want McTom and Maguire not to have such prominent roles in the team. Who will do the defending then? Varane is tall, Cristiano if he stays... Who else?

I'm a bit ambivalent towards Martinez. On one hand I really like that he is supposed to be a leader and a winner. Also he seems to be really good with the ball. But his height might require some balancing with other players. Plus I can't help myself but I'm a bit discouraged that our only scouting criteria seems to be "has played for ETH"... Especially when we were chasing his partners for quite some time...

And this "he can play DM" doesn't really cut it for me... At the point we are regarding club status, we should try to bring in specialists to improve the first team. If it is Martinez, then for CB.
 
TGod said:
I think De jong would be the DM. It's been posted several times that de jong is usually the deepest midfielder.
Honest question, between Vidal and Pirlo, who was the DM?
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Vidal quite clearly did much of the dirty work so he could be considered a DM next to pirlo while I'd argue he was more of a defensive no8, while Pirlo dropped deep to get the ball and played as a deep laying playmaker and slot in the defensive shape when off the ball..
 
Godfather said:
Incredible. The same content for every tweet in the last two weeks. Just like for FdJ.
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Find me them.

I think you'll find it hard. Very hard infact for Martinez considering the interest for Martinez really only got serious at the tail end of last week.

So I implore you to find them for me.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Find me them.

I think you'll find it hard. Very hard infact for Martinez considering the interest for Martinez really only got serious at the tail end of last week.

So I implore you to find them for me.
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Let it be a week who knows. Been the same for quite a bit and I'm getting all twitchy.
 
Chief123 said:
Man City is not a good comparison. They could field a team full of small players and still be ok because they are a team that concedes the least shots and corners against them in the league because most teams can’t even get into their final 3rd.
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Why would that make them a bad comparison?

You've picked the team in the PL whose approach to defending is most similar to ETH's Ajax and said that only works for them because they do exactly what we're looking for our team to do now that we've hired ETH.
 
Dutch press think we want him signed before the squad leaves for the pre season tour and that Ajax will sell for the right price. I suspect this one will happen, the Dutch press are usually very accurate with these things and Ajax.
 
Our first 2 potential signings are areas which weren’t in desperate need for improvement. I really hope we focus on midfield and RW after this.
 
El-Manos said:
Our first 2 potential signings are areas which weren’t in desperate need for improvement. I really hope we focus on midfield and RW after this.
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Eriksen is a midfielder comfortable on the ball and technically brilliant, that was definately an area that needed desperate improvement.

Telles is absolutely shite, so needed improvement
 
Daslogisch said:
Exactly. People like to think in boxes and don't understand there are no perfect players and if there are then everyone wants that player and the chances he'll play for your team are really small anyway. Sure you can sign big strong defenders that can cope with big strikers. But what if they are slow and panic when they are put under pressure in possession you're going to have other problems. But with Maguire and Lindelof in the team you should be aware of that. There are no defenders that check all the boxes. Fast, strong, tall, great tackling, great positioning, great passing, calm in possession, leadership. There are no defenders that tick all the boxes. You have to concede somewhere. Ten Hag needs players that are good in possession and pressing because he wants to play a high line. Even the consequence is that he'll have to concede height, than that's a better option for him than to play with a strong/tall defender that panics when he has the ball.

Sure you're going to be vulnerable in set pieces if your playing small defenders. Sure you might struggle in the last 10 minutes if you're 1-0 up and the opponents put it a big striker or put a big central defender forward and try to create chaos that way. But there is no perfect scenario in where there are no risks. There has been no team in history that had no weaknesses. Barca's tiki-taka team had 10 midgets and Pique. Even the goalkeeper was a midget. They were very vulnerable in set pieces or if they played a team that could actually get to their box. But this did not happen very often. Of course ideally you have everything, but in reality the perfect players don't exist. It's about gelling the team together and finding a match between all your players. In Ten Hags philosophy he wants to keep the opponent away from goal. Pressing, aggressiveness, positioning and being comfortable in possession of the ball is more important than pure physical strength or height. If a choice has to be made, therefore he'll choose to sacrifice height.
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Understand that there are no perfect players but the move for Martinez does come with some risks which need to be pointed out. You can't tell me that there are no young, progressive CBs that are fast and tall? Aside from the Ajax link, there is Pau Torres, David Carmo, Benoit Badiashile, Evan N'dicka and others. All fast, left footed, good passing ability and agile that don't come with the caveat of height that Martinez does. Yes, height is not everything and if the player has a good leap and is aggressive, lack of height can be overcome but in the PL, it goes a long way. He's not making a move to peak Barcelona in the Spanish league. If you view it even more in terms of the transfer fee, then it really does beg the question, is Martinez the best CB we can get for that money given the attributes mentioned above?
 
For those who are concerned with Martinez’s defending against big strong physical strikers, Google his performance against Haaland last season.
 
El-Manos said:
Our first 2 potential signings are areas which weren’t in desperate need for improvement. I really hope we focus on midfield and RW after this.
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We are going to be playing a completely different style of football under a new manager, maybe it's up for him to decide where we need improvement. Fullbacks are very important to his style, as is a #10 that can keep possession as is a CB that's good with the ball and can play out of from the back. These are key signings for Ten Hag.
 
Chief123 said:
The point still stands though. Even if you replace Eriksen with Fred. He’s even shorter. DVB isn’t tall or physical. Mctominay is, but is below Fred in the pecking order. We are still looking at a situation where Varane is our only height.
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Is that you Jose???
 
Godfather said:
Incredible. The same content for every tweet in the last two weeks. Just like for FdJ.
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This is the standard update when there is no update.
People want to see some news everyday so you cannot blame these muppets for posting this garbage when bizarrely enough there is a market for it.
 
roseguy64 said:
That's a personal problem. Request a forum ban if it bothers you that much. The rest of us are fine.
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Man that was tongue in cheek. I'm totally fine but can't wait for him to join. Some of you must be proper fun at parties.
 
Johan77 said:
Yes it's funny. Lisandro only played as a central defender last year in Ajax, not once at DM or LB.
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There is some logic behind it, he came to Ajax as an LB and played DM the first year.
But after that Ten Hag publicly stated that he wasn't good enough for DM.

This information has been posted here 20+ times now, but people don't read and keep asking the same questions
 
Terranova said:
There is some logic behind it, he came to Ajax as an LB and played DM the first year.
But after that Ten Hag publicly stated that he wasn't good enough for DM.

This information has been posted here 20+ times now, but people don't read and keep asking the same questions
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He didn’t explicitly say DM, did he? He said midfield, which if we’re talking being a mobile CM-like figure is a wholly different ball game.
 
Im kind of excited by this. I wonder are we looking at a back 3? With wing backs? Likes of Martinez to step up behind midfield when in possession?
 
NZT-One said:
Maybe it wouldn't. But height is a factor for a CB. And we lost some aerial strength in Pogba and Matic, and lots of people want McTom and Maguire not to have such prominent roles in the team. Who will do the defending then? Varane is tall, Cristiano if he stays... Who else?

I'm a bit ambivalent towards Martinez. On one hand I really like that he is supposed to be a leader and a winner. Also he seems to be really good with the ball. But his height might require some balancing with other players. Plus I can't help myself but I'm a bit discouraged that our only scouting criteria seems to be "has played for ETH"... Especially when we were chasing his partners for quite some time...

And this "he can play DM" doesn't really cut it for me... At the point we are regarding club status, we should try to bring in specialists to improve the first team. If it is Martinez, then for CB.
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His height should be a talking point, but this extensive? Perhaps. Every angle and counter has been put forth with examples of short CB’s who thrived (Ayala, Cordoba, Cannavaro and Heinze are perhaps the easier modern-day examples) that people don’t want to hear about, particularly in the big bad PL where Duncan Ferguson clones roam freely looking to let loose on tiny guys whenever they get the chance.

In all seriousness, we’ll see on multiple fronts, but the circular discussion is odd, as the guy is being reduced to practically nothing but his height. Barely any talk of what it means tactically or how much he brings the tabled. There’s a plethora of ways to utilise him, even with a supposed handicap; he’s a very interesting player, as far as I can see.
 
Fortitude said:
He didn’t explicitly say DM, did he? He said midfield, which if we’re talking being a mobile CM-like figure is a wholly different ball game.
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Quite sure DM is under the midfield umbrella term here.
Rams said:
For those who are concerned with Martinez’s defending against big strong physical strikers, Google his performance against Haaland last season.
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I watched it.
He was alright but lost a couple arial challenges, ironically.
 
VP89 said:
Quite sure DM is under the midfield umbrella term here.

I watched it.
He was alright but lost a couple arial challenges, ironically.
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You genuinely believe a player doesn’t have the legs to be a defensive midfielder? It’s literally the position wiley old pros go to eke out a few more years. Midfield, as in, an active two-way component, sure I can buy into that, but not having the legs to play DM means you should retire as your last retreat then is sweeper.
 
Fortitude said:
You genuinely believe a player doesn’t have the legs to be a defensive midfielder? It’s literally the position wiley old pros go to eke out a few more years. Midfield, as in, an active two-way component, sure I can buy into that, but not having the legs to play DM means you should retire as your last retreat then is sweeper.
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I think what Ten Hag said is that he doesn't see him as a midfielder. He said they don't have the running ability. For that reason hes obviously going to be a CB for us who presses high up when we have the ball.

 
VP89 said:
I think what Ten Hag said is that he doesn't see him as a midfielder. He said they don't have the running ability. For that reason hes obviously going to be a CB for us who presses high up when we have the ball.

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I know the quote, I just think it refers to something different than a ‘mere’ DM whose positioning is king and doesn’t have to break into barely any sprints if good enough. A runner, a CM etc, sure, it makes sense then. Even for a fully fledged ten Hag side it has merit, but we’re miles away from being that kind of oppressive force until proven otherwise, so it’ll be interesting to see how cavalier he tries to make us initially, and if we are going to have balance, then someone is going to sit in midfield, even if it isn’t this guy.
 
Fortitude said:
I know the quote, I just think it refers to something different than a ‘mere’ DM whose positioning is king and doesn’t have to break into barely any sprints if good enough. A runner, a CM etc, sure, it makes sense then. Even for a fully fledged ten Hag side it has merit, but we’re miles away from being that kind of oppressive force until proven otherwise, so it’ll be interesting to see how cavalier he tries to make us initially, and if we are going to have balance, then someone is going to sit in midfield, even if it isn’t this guy.
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I think DMs need to have very good running ability. Even if they're not going box to box, they need to be capable of getting about and plugging the gaps centrally. Don't think Ten Hag sees him as that player.

Worth noting off the ball, full backs take up really random positions under ETH and the likes of Martinez would plug the gaps high up. So although hes not a DM, he still ventures very far forward as a CB.
 
Fortitude said:
I know the quote, I just think it refers to something different than a ‘mere’ DM whose positioning is king and doesn’t have to break into barely any sprints if good enough. A runner, a CM etc, sure, it makes sense then. Even for a fully fledged ten Hag side it has merit, but we’re miles away from being that kind of oppressive force until proven otherwise, so it’ll be interesting to see how cavalier he tries to make us initially, and if we are going to have balance, then someone is going to sit in midfield, even if it isn’t this guy.
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I think he is probably referring to a DM style role though, right? Because I would guess that's the only type of midfield role he played so why would he be referring to an orthodox CM role? That wouldn't make a lot of sense. I could be wrong having not seen how they deployed him. For Ten Hag to say that in what I presume is a response to where the players best role is because he has played a few - I think that's pretty telling that he experimented with it and didn't like it.
 
Fortitude said:
I know the quote, I just think it refers to something different than a ‘mere’ DM whose positioning is king and doesn’t have to break into barely any sprints if good enough. A runner, a CM etc, sure, it makes sense then. Even for a fully fledged ten Hag side it has merit, but we’re miles away from being that kind of oppressive force until proven otherwise, so it’ll be interesting to see how cavalier he tries to make us initially, and if we are going to have balance, then someone is going to sit in midfield, even if it isn’t this guy.
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You think DMs don't cover much ground?
 
VP89 said:
I think DMs need to have very good running ability. Even if they're not going box to box, they need to be capable of getting about and plugging the gaps centrally. Don't think Ten Hag sees him as that player.

Worth noting off the ball, full backs take up really random positions under ETH and the likes of Martinez would plug the gaps high up. So although hes not a DM, he still ventures very far forward as a CB.
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Perpetual motion, sure, at a jogging pace - I am referring to traditional DM’s anchoring here - with very few sprints or fatiguing actions if positionally aware enough. It’s the one position on the pitch you can be a plodder and get away with it, even, so long as you’re reading of play is top notch.

But yeah, that quote has caveats when contrasting Ajax, and the Eredivisie, to us, and what we have been for a long time now, unless you believe we can push up 40 yards collectively and do what they did - with the same player briefs - straight out the gate?
 
Trex said:
You think DMs don't cover much ground?
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That’s not what I said. Particularly, the intensity of the running HIIT is wholly different between positions in midfield, even if a DM chugs out more distance over a game than your high octane grafters whose sprint rates are insane.
 
Abraxas said:
I think he is probably referring to a DM style role though, right? Because I would guess that's the only type of midfield role he played so why would he be referring to an orthodox CM role? That wouldn't make a lot of sense. I could be wrong having not seen how they deployed him. For Ten Hag to say that in what I presume is a response to where the players best role is because he has played a few - I think that's pretty telling that he experimented with it and didn't like it.
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Ajax squeezed the life out of opponents and played so much further up the pitch - when play broke down for them a high intensity action to win the ball back and recycle it gives the quote more logic from their perspective, but I don’t think we can have the same principles in ten Hag’s first season and will have to be more conservative, which ushers in a more staid midfield game with more basic principles we’ll have to establish before we can become as expansive as he’d like. That’s when I think he’ll want his specialist midfielder or when a sitter will be moved away from.
 
According to some Ajax fans, this is the game that ended any thought of Lisandro as a full-time midfield option. He quickly moved back to CB and Ten Hag's quotes about him not having the legs to play midfield came out a couple of months after.

Watch Midtsjo - who isn't fast - absolutely smoke him here:


1:22 if the timestamp doesn't work

Bigger issue - again according to Ajax fans - was stamina. Also that he overcommited in midfield while having little recovery pace.

The highlights of this game show a little bit of all these issues.

If we get him, I'm sure he'll be a CB.
 
Martial'sEmergingSmile said:
According to some Ajax fans, this is the game that ended any thought of Lisandro as a full-time midfield option. He quickly moved back to CB and Ten Hag's quotes about him not having the legs to play midfield came out a couple of months after.

Watch Midtsjo - who isn't fast - absolutely smoke him here:


1:22 if the timestamp doesn't work

Bigger issue - again according to Ajax fans - was stamina. Also that he overcommited in midfield while having little recovery pace.

The highlights of this game show a little bit of all these issues.

If we get him, I'm sure he'll be a CB.
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Which is in line with what I mean about the way Ajax play and how high up everything is, which means when it breaks down there’s more running to do to get the ball back, before the recovery/rest period in possession begins.

What my query is, is whether we will even be able to play like Ajax did in the first place to expose these flaws. I would think we’ll be more pragmatic because we aren’t close to being a dominant force in the league currently, but when/if we become so, things change dramatically and what was once necessary (conservative approach) can then be discarded as well as some of that personnel.
 
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