Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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Fortitude said:
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In time, we should be similar in driving opposing sides back and that's when he's an organic fit at the back, not to mention the requirements in midfield changing where he becomes more of an ill fit if we're not going to be under the cosh in the way I envision we initially will - De Jong and our whole midfield will face a full examination of their so-called credentials until determined as bona fide - so it, to me, is a dynamic, needs must situation. We need to establish midfield dominance and everything expands from there, I feel.
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That make sense. I'm on board of getting player that eventually can be more useful in the future, instead of instant success but may not be optimal for future use.
 
I feel like this thread would be over 100 pages by now if the De Jong saga wasn’t ongoing at the same time

Given that a few reliable journalists have said that his signing is our priority especially
 
Hopefully we’ll see some positive news over the next two days so he can meet the team in Asia.
 
Not sure why are we prioritising another centre back purchase here when we have a diabolical midfield and basically no RW or decent RB. I just hope this transfer doesn't eat away our budget for a RW/midfielder. Looks good on the ball though, i'll give him that. Hopefully we shift Bailly, Tuanzebe & Jones after this - Varane Maguire, Martinez & lindelof should be sufficient.
 
Fortitude said:
Somehow we have to unlock De Jong and allow him to do his thing with complete abandon and no fear. I feel that apart from France, De Jong will encounter more impedance to his gallivanting runs through midfield than he would anywhere else in the world (in Brazil and Argentina he'd just get systematically fouled) Europe, which in turn probably means more turnovers and loss of possession, at least initially and whilst he's adjusting to the athleticism and aggression of tracking runners. That means we need to cater for this as a contingency, which is where the other pivot has to always be in place ready for predictably unpredictable. If done right De Jong loses no confidence to keep doing his thing whilst the team also ticks over superfluously; De Jong is going to need this type of player next to him until we establish dominance is my feeling. If not Martinez, then someone else anchoring - and that person also has to be able to play: pass, combination football, 1-touch etc. have the ability to initialise attacks in his own right, preferably without ball carriage... essentially a more classical deep-lying playmaker in their own right... who ticks these boxes in our squad? Garner? It sure as shit ain't Fred or McTominay, so deductive reasoning states...?

I believe it's subject to change with the aforementioned establishing of dominance, but initially?


If we don't buy a specialist, I don't see how he isn't deployed in midfield initially, especially so when him being there gives immense flexibility to the backline in offensive phases. But most particularly maintaining our shape at all times, no matter what De Jong is doing.

This thing about collecting the ball off the backline, too... there is obviously a difference between a ball carrier doing so and a quick release to someone who can take, turn and hit a pass from deep all the way into the final third with precision and pace - for the most part the ball carrier gets deference, but on mix up, you hit the passer to instantaneously hit a cutting ball 60 yards. There's no crossed wires there, as far as I see, just alternations and an understanding of who does what and when.
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I get your point. I still get some Pogba vibes, a player that needs an other player to shine. And especially the other player that you are describing is missed for way longer than the creator from deep. Again, not against adding Martinez to the squad. But for me, that transfer window will have a huge dent as long as we didn't add a DM. (Not even has to be one from the top shelf, give me a Gueye or some 18 Million columbian guy with an iron lung and I'll be fine).

Ajaxsuarez said:
You'll play an extremely high line, and high balls then become a matter of having mobile centrebacks capable of tracking runs in behind, often to the flanks (Martinez and Timber at Ajax), and a player in the centre, around the kick-off spot capable of winning an aerial battle (Alvarez at Ajax). I think you should be thinking in terms of roles/function instead of positions actually.

Battling for headers around the centre circle was a big part of De Ligt's role, with Schöne (RCM) blocking passing lanes in the centre, and De Jong (LCM) tracking runners in behind (on the left side), particularly those towards the right wing.

Then in the later iteration, Alvarez performs the aerial role, and Martinez tracks runners in behind and towards that flank. Timber in this case performing similarly on the right.

Similarly there are roles/functionalities that are filled in by players from different positions in the different iterations of Ten Hag's Ajax.

So where "minimal" width up front was provided by Tagliafico (left back) and Mazraoui (right back) in the 18/19 Ajax, (this being the player that stands a yard or two wider than the widest defender, making either dragging them out slightly and creating space or being open to receive the ball and then put in a cross around the back)
In this season's Ajax, you would often instead see the midfielders Gravenberch and Berghuis be the players overlapping on the outsides to fill that role in attacks, with Blind and Mazraoui from fullback instead slotting in behind into more of the halfspaces. (picture this as being when the wingers Tadic/Antony have the ball respectively).

You would still need an aerially capable DM or RCB though.
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Good post, thanks for putting it together!
 
El-Manos said:
Not sure why are we prioritising another centre back purchase here when we have a diabolical midfield and basically no RW or decent RB. I just hope this transfer doesn't eat away our budget for a RW/midfielder. Looks good on the ball though, i'll give him that. Hopefully we shift Bailly, Tuanzebe & Jones after this - Varane Maguire, Martinez & lindelof should be sufficient.
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I get the feeling ETH thinks he can get more out of AWB and Dalot. Hence not a priority.

But it seems that Martinez is quite crucial to his system. Along with FDJ.

Also wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a proper rotational option if varane continues his injury proneness.

assume that bailly and Jones are also gone too
 
We should just do a swap with Ronnie.
I am sure Ronnie would take a drop in wages so he could play Champs League wouldn't he ?:wenger::wenger:
 
Reminds me a little bit of Rojo in how he plays.

I think what people forget with a lot of these Eeredevise players, is that the attacks and defences they play against are a whole other level to the PL. Just don't see a world where he's anything more than average, which makes us wanting to spend 40m on him baffling.
 
marktan said:
Reminds me a little bit of Rojo in how he plays.

I think what people forget with a lot of these Eeredevise players, is that the attacks and defences they play against are a whole other level to the PL. Just don't see a world where he's anything more than average, which makes us wanting to spend 40m on him baffling.
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Rojo was far more physically robust in his play. Seeing people explain how we'll play like Ajax, without really acknowledging that we're in the Premier League which is vastly different to Eredivisie, they make it sound good in theory, but I'd say when we play City, Liverpool and the rest it won't work the same. We shall see how it all pans out.
 
Red_toad said:
Rojo was far more physically robust in his play. Seeing people explain how we'll play like Ajax, without really acknowledging that we're in the Premier League which is vastly different to Eredivisie, they make it sound good in theory, but I'd say when we play City, Liverpool and the rest it won't work the same. We shall see how it all pans out.
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But Rojo was not good on the ball.. this guy can literally play DM and has good passing ..
 
Red_toad said:
Rojo was far more physically robust in his play. Seeing people explain how we'll play like Ajax, without really acknowledging that we're in the Premier League which is vastly different to Eredivisie, they make it sound good in theory, but I'd say when we play City, Liverpool and the rest it won't work the same. We shall see how it all pans out.
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See that's the thing, Ten Hag had Ajax playing and performing the same way against European heavyweights throughout his time at Ajax. Against Madrid, Juve, Bayern, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, Dortmund, etc. Played excellent football against all of them, and were never outclassed and hammered a few of them too. The losses were generally unlucky as well to add. Ten Hag had Ajax playing like one of the top teams in Europe, and went toe to toe with the best in Europe every year, despite constant turnover in their squad.
 
marktan said:
Reminds me a little bit of Rojo in how he plays.

I think what people forget with a lot of these Eeredevise players, is that the attacks and defences they play against are a whole other level to the PL. Just don't see a world where he's anything more than average, which makes us wanting to spend 40m on him baffling.
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Think it’s short sighted not to recognise he’s performed in the CL against forwards like Haaland and Nunez. He’s also an Argentina international.

Whilst the week in week out standard is not as high at the PL this Ajax team didn’t just deliver inside of the domestic league.
 
marktan said:
Reminds me a little bit of Rojo in how he plays.

I think what people forget with a lot of these Eeredevise players, is that the attacks and defences they play against are a whole other level to the PL. Just don't see a world where he's anything more than average, which makes us wanting to spend 40m on him baffling.
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Did you watch Rojo videos by mistake?
 
Totally different players, almost contrasting styles- though both Argies with a left peg.

Rojo just bulldozes and goes through forwards blindly; but Martinez kinds of strategically stretches out his leg/head to nudge ball away.

Rojo kinds of thumps ball forward and hope for the best; but Martinez is more alert to his forward players positioning.

But Rojo is definitely pacier than Martinez who seems slower on the turn
 
This is the type of thread that will have people quoting their own "predictions" and point fingers at others in a few months. Just hope the ones claiming Martinez will be great for us are right.
 
So did he not reporting for training, just to push the move? And we are ok with that? :lol:
 
The amount of money we've spent on CBs over the last 4-5 years is kinda mental

Bailly
Lindelof
Maguire
Varane

Each of our last 2 managers have been allowed to buy a brand new pair of them, and each of them have managed to end up with a worse defensive record than the last one :lol:
 
Is he much better than Blind for example? Who did very well for ajax recently, left footed with ability at cb and dm. 50m is a lot
 
ETH better be careful about the manner he spends cash, at the end of last summer window we only had midfield as an area of worry going into the season.
Since then we've lost only more midfielders and forwards, I know our defenders didn't impress last year but they played far below their usual level, that's something that should be addressed on the training pitch, is this signing really necessary at all?
 
El-Manos said:
Not sure why are we prioritising another centre back purchase here when we have a diabolical midfield and basically no RW or decent RB. I just hope this transfer doesn't eat away our budget for a RW/midfielder. Looks good on the ball though, i'll give him that. Hopefully we shift Bailly, Tuanzebe & Jones after this - Varane Maguire, Martinez & lindelof should be sufficient.
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I guess ETH wants a player who can carry the ball out from defence. But I agree with you. We have no RW, Ronaldo wants out so either one unhappy striker or none. And currently McFred starting every week.
 
Not worth the money, no pace and height, for the PL needed more than other leagues. Timber at least has pace.

40m take or leave.
 
Spending £35m+ on him but going into the season with Dalot starting right back would be a mistake.
 
El-Manos said:
Not sure why are we prioritising another centre back purchase here when we have a diabolical midfield and basically no RW or decent RB. I just hope this transfer doesn't eat away our budget for a RW/midfielder. Looks good on the ball though, i'll give him that. Hopefully we shift Bailly, Tuanzebe & Jones after this - Varane Maguire, Martinez & lindelof should be sufficient.
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It amazes me when people have said this, this summer. Didn’t you all watch last season at all? Bad form and injuries affected them all.
most goals conceded in a PL season. We need a CB as much as anything
 
golden_blunder said:
It amazes me when people have said this, this summer. Didn’t you all watch last season at all? Bad form and injuries affected them all.
most goals conceded in a PL season. We need a CB as much as anything
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Not to mention he can play as a defensive midfielder too.
 
El-Manos said:
Not sure why are we prioritising another centre back purchase here when we have a diabolical midfield and basically no RW or decent RB. I just hope this transfer doesn't eat away our budget for a RW/midfielder. Looks good on the ball though, i'll give him that. Hopefully we shift Bailly, Tuanzebe & Jones after this - Varane Maguire, Martinez & lindelof should be sufficient.
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Because none of these players suit the way Ten Hag wants to play. Why is this so difficult for you to understand :lol:
 
Isotope said:
So did he not reporting for training, just to push the move? And we are ok with that? :lol:
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Why not? We cry when players “don’t want to join us” and now it’s a problem when they’re trying their hardest to get the move?
 
golden_blunder said:
It amazes me when people have said this, this summer. Didn’t you all watch last season at all? Bad form and injuries affected them all.
most goals conceded in a PL season. We need a CB as much as anything
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Especially given two of our CBs in Bailly and Jones have been linked with moves away and are effectively non-options most of the time. We can't be left with just the injury and form troubled trio of Varane, Maguire and Lindelof.

And then on top of all that you have the fact that ETH's style of play demands a lot from his CBs in areas Martinez would upgrade us. It would hardly be surprising if even with form and fitness put aside ETH looked at that trio and thought he needed improvement there anyway. But all those other factors make it a priority.
 
golden_blunder said:
It amazes me when people have said this, this summer. Didn’t you all watch last season at all? Bad form and injuries affected them all.
most goals conceded in a PL season. We need a CB as much as anything
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Think it comes from the train of thought that its not the personel at CB though, and more the poor fullbacks, lack of a DM and GK that isn't commanding.

I think that theory carries water tbf, and that Maguire and Varane should be a good pairing. That being said though, everyone beneath them aren't good enough so I'd agree we need another.
 
Carl said:
Think it comes from the train of thought that its not the personel at CB though, and more the poor fullbacks, lack of a DM and GK that isn't commanding.

I think that theory carries water tbf, and that Maguire and Varane should be a good pairing. That being said though, everyone beneath them aren't good enough so I'd agree we need another.
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We bought one full back, and a ball playing left footed CB capable of pushing up in a high press is quite imperative.

We need to stop looking and players we have and think "xyz should be enough at the back" and rather question whether they suit the system.
 
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