Lisandro Martinez | Signs for United

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redcucumber said:
Thiago Silva is 1.81cm, Ricardo Carvalho 1.83cm. Does Lisandro Martinez being 6-8cm shorter render him useless?
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In terms of being a central defender in the Premier League, not useless but won't improve our team enough and will be a liability.

evil_geko said:
I guess you are still living in the 90s.
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Really? So lesser teams don't uses crosses to try to create a threat in the opposition box. Tell my did Guardiola admit that he underestimated the physicality of this League, quite sure he came to this league in the mid 10's

Andycoleno9 said:
Wood is one of the last big and tall no9s. He scored 2 goals last year. Era of big and tall defenders and strikers are over
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Well Erling Braut Haalands height was meassured to 1.95 m when he did his City medical, quoted 1.94 at other sources. And even if not being in the 1.90s m. Nunez and Calvert-Lewin is 12 cm taller than Martinez with a great leaps. Kane is 13 cm taller.

cyberman said:
Teams play with inside forwards and 9s who drop deep. Teams try to play the ball on the ground these days, the days of teams getting it wide to lump it in are gone. If you think about it, playing a midfield 3 with a lone striker up top lessens the bodies in the box so a big man knocking it down or getting 2v1 against a CB just isn’t optimal in todays game.
If you remember our period of conceding from crosses most of them were from not tracking back post runs. That’s the threat from wide these days, those byline crosses that are cut back across rather than big brave CBs getting their head on long balls
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How many teams in the Premier League do really play with a false nine? City did last season they bought Haaland, Liverpool had a striker dropping now they bought Nunes.

The physicality is there in this league and teams will of course target Martinez in the air because his height makes it an opportunity to try exploit.

I do understand that you all want to be optimistic when it comes to a new signing. But then as I've said before how many central defenders are under 1.80 in this league, even if we're not in the 90's anymore, even if there are fewer big no 9s around, even if more teams using false 9s? I don't know about any, might be that I've overlooked some, and the reason is that it will be a weaknes.

Someone might uses his aerial stats from last season was good, but that was in the dutch league and that league don't match the physicaliy of the Premier League.
 
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EtH said:
Of course he will contribute. I am just saying that his height will likely cost us goals from crosses and set pieces. I would much prefer Gvardiol for this reason amongst others. But unfortunately our scouting department still hasn’t a scooby and we seem to be relying on EtH to identify targets which is far from optimal to say the very least.
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His aerial stats are very good. ten Hag knows him extremely well - both his abilities and deficiencies. The only risk is that ten Hag has misjudged Martinez' ability to transition to PL football. That's the nature of most transfers. I'm choosing to trust ten Hag.

Besides, this time next year we might be looking at the likes of Gvardiol to come in and partner him. None of our current CBs have proven that they are good enough for United, but we aren't able to do everything at once. Martinez is just one piece of the puzzle.
 
redcucumber said:
His aerial stats are very good. ten Hag knows him extremely well - both his abilities and deficiencies. The only risk is that ten Hag has misjudged Martinez' ability to transition to PL football. That's the nature of most transfers. I'm choosing to trust ten Hag.

Besides, this time next year we might be looking at the likes of Gvardiol to come in and partner him. None of our current CBs have proven that they are good enough for United, but we aren't able to do everything at once. Martinez is just one piece of the puzzle.
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Well obviously if we get him I hope he smashes it. But it would be mad not to acknowledge his height as a concern.

And to be clear it’s not really about trusting Ten Hag. It’s about a lack of trust in our scouting department as EtH has obviously been handpicking our targets this summer. He shouldn’t be tasked with such responsibilities.
 
EtH said:
Well obviously if we get him I hope he smashes it. But it would be mad not to acknowledge his height as a concern.

And to be clear it’s not really about trusting Ten Hag. It’s about a lack of trust in our scouting department as EtH has obviously been handpicking our targets this summer. He shouldn’t be tasked with such responsibilities.
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Honestly think he wants to build a unit of players he already trusts then fully expect next window he will have a more open mind on things
 
Why are Arsenal still in for him?


Surely they must know we match any offers and wages and he going to want to play for Hag
 
croadyman said:
Honestly think he wants to build a unit of players he already trusts then fully expect next window he will have a more open mind on things
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Makes total sense him to buy players he knows, out his stamp on the team, and they know his tactics and coaching inside out. Not sure why folk are getting annoyed he raiding the dutch league. Every player we are going in for at the moment will improve us massively, on pitch and off it I'd imagine, strong characters too
 
Flexdegea said:
Why are Arsenal still in for him?


Surely they must know we match any offers and wages and he going to want to play for Hag
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Probably because Martinez has signaled to them he would be willing to go there. News was that he wants PL, it doesn't say which club.

Ya we might be in for him but he isn't gonna tell Arsenal to jog on just because we show interest. Because say we can't complete the deal and he has already turned down Arsenal, means he's playing in the Dutch league another year and maybe never gets his move as us & Arsenal move on to a different target next year.
 
Flexdegea said:
Why are Arsenal still in for him?


Surely they must know we match any offers and wages and he going to want to play for Hag
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I asked this a few pages back too, seems weird

Maybe Arsenal feel they might have an advantage in that he is their #1 choice at CB, whereas United seemed to want Timber first.
 
EtH said:
City and Liverpool have Dias and VVD as well as class holding midfielders shielding their back fours.



Of course he will contribute. I am just saying that his height will likely cost us goals from crosses and set pieces. I would much prefer Gvardiol for this reason amongst others. But unfortunately our scouting department still hasn’t a scooby and we seem to be relying on EtH to identify targets which is far from optimal to say the very least.
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You mention Ruben Dias but he won just 59.6% of his aerial duels last season, leaving him in the bottom 29% of CBs in Europe in terms of the percentage of aerial duels won.

And yet Man City conceded the joint-fewest goals in all of Europe's big 5 leagues.

If anything he's proof of what people mean when they talk about setting up in such a way that aerial dominance from your CB is less important. Because if it matters as much in the PL as some people seem to think, he would have been a crippling weakness in that title-winning defence.

But in reality football is such that a CB like Dias will contest roughly 3-4 aerial duels per game, as opposed to say passing the ball 83-84 times per game. That's how much more central what he does on the ball is to what's required of him as a CB, to name just one aspect of play.

And most people raising the issue with Martinez aren't even talking about his aerial ability. They're talking about his height, which is a worse way of trying to measure the same thing.
 
Flexdegea said:
Makes total sense him to buy players he knows, out his stamp on the team, and they know his tactics and coaching inside out. Not sure why folk are getting annoyed he raiding the dutch league. Every player we are going in for at the moment will improve us massively, on pitch and off it I'd imagine, strong characters too
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I had this 'discussion' (argument) with a fan on Twitter.

He knows their ability, he knows how they'd fit his plans and he knows their temperament... after all the negativity he's undoubtedly heard of, he'd understandably want players he can trust, as well as ability.

T'other guy on Twitter said "yeah but Dutch league is sh!te". 1, it's not, 2, they play CL too which is a good indicator and 3, players earmarked play for their countries. Maybe not 60+ caps but then we'd likely be looking at older players ... at least these have chance of a second contract OR some resale value.

At the end of the day, got to trust the manager knows what he's doing. The job he did at Ajax (different league, nowhere near the pressure admittedly) gives me more confidence than any of the last 4 managers.
 
2 man midfield said:
Not us solely but they’re probably going to lose half of their first team to various clubs. Makes sense we’d have to offer a sum they couldn’t refuse.
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Ajax this season will loose Onana, Mazraoui, Tagliafico, Martinez, Gravenberch, Haller, maybe Antony plus Blind and Tadic are getting older. I dont think we recover from this easily knowing half of the signings will fail. Imagine the team if Ajax kept their players from 2018/19 and added the best of these
 
EtH said:
Not useless but it is definitely a concern in the PL if we are indeed looking at him as a CB longterm.
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Where were all these concerns for the past 5-6 years when I’ve been banging the drum about Lindelof? Everyone said he was ok and Martinez stacks up positively versus him so not sure why the change of mood just because he’s small? He’s more aggressive and front foot so that will take him far in this league
 
Number TwentyFive said:
In terms of being a central defender in the Premier League, not useless but won't improve our team enough and will be a liability.



Really? So lesser teams don't uses crosses to try to create a threat in the opposition box. Tell my did Guardiola admit that he underestimated the physicality of this League, quite sure he came to this league in the mid 10's



Well Erling Braut Haalands height was meassured to 1.95 m when he did his City medical, quoted 1.94 at other sources. And even if not being in the 1.90s m. Nunez and Calvert-Lewin is 12 cm taller than Martinez with a great leaps. Kane is 13 cm taller.



How many teams in the Premier League do really play with a false nine? City did last season they bought Haaland, Liverpool had a striker dropping now they bought Nunes.

The physicality is there in this league and teams will of course target Martinez in the air because his height makes it an opportunity to try exploit.

I do understand that you all want to be optimistic when it comes to a new signing. But then as I've said before how many central defenders are under 1.80 in this league, even if we're not in the 90's anymore, even if there are fewer big no 9s around, even if more teams using false 9s? I don't know about any, might be that I've overlooked some, and the reason is that it will be a weaknes.

Someone might uses his aerial stats from last season was good, but that was in the dutch league and that league don't match the physicaliy of the Premier League.
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Look at how poorly number 9s scored last season. The top scorer list was mainly coinages by non number 9s. Modern football is creating space at the back post for inside forwards to latch onto or low balls back across the defenders for midfielders to slot home.
 
cyberman said:
Look at how poorly number 9s scored last season. The top scorer list was mainly coinages by non number 9s. Modern football is creating space at the back post for inside forwards to latch onto or low balls back across the defenders for midfielders to slot home.
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You have a point about scoring, but out of the 10 highest scorers in the league last year 7 came from the top 4 teams. But it's not as easy just to look at the top scorer table and say it won't be a problem. The top four has the ability to outplay most of the other teams, they don't need to turn to physical play that often. Still two of those teams have already signed a classic number 9. Also it doesn't have to be a number 9 who scores directly from the cross, but another player because of the havoc that is created when we are loosing arial duels in the box. Last season showed that we really weren't really good at winning second balls or loose balls in the box. So why create another weaknes in the team by signing a central defender that will because of his height end up loosing aerial duels that could end up in a chaos in our own box. Why not sign someone that will dominate these duels.

redcucumber said:
His aerial stats are very good.
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In the Eredivisie yes, but the Premier League is a totally different animal than the Eredivisie when it comes to physicality.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Serious question; season is long, you need depth and shit like that but regarding central defenders, you always have first pair who starts most of games. So are we buying him as backup or first choice?
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Jones is done, Bailly is done, Maguire was a disaster last season. Lindelof is pretty average. Varane is top class but had a shaky first season in the PL.

Of course this guy should be a starter.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Serious question; season is long, you need depth and shit like that but regarding central defenders, you always have first pair who starts most of games. So are we buying him as backup or first choice?
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With Bailly and Jones available to leave we would effectively have four CB options. Martinez, Maguire, Varane and Lindelof. Of those four there's zero reason to think Martinez wouldn't be our first choice LCB under ETH as he's obviously the most natural fit.

I would imagine it will be Martinez at LCB + one of Maguire/Varane at RCB, with Lindelof as back-up. With Maguire also providing cover for Martinez at LCB as despite being right-footed he has spent much of his career playing LCB.

Which seems like a relative amount of depth and balance but in reality if Varane and Lindelof's injury issues continue there's a good chance that we will have decent swathes of the season where we're really just picking two from three of those who are available.
 
Davie Moyes said:
Spot on mate. The nickname of Butcher of Amsterdam seems appropriate.

I'd never heard of or seen this guy play before he was linked with us but my word those highlight compilations and the passing/progressing play stats are impressive. Especially the vid done by Raees.

I for one am very excited about this potential transfer. He seems to be a combination of Heinze and Blind.
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Yeah, our build up play has been so abysmal that it will be great to have another player that can punch through the lines with his passing or step into midfield and draw the opposition in without losing possession.
 
Number TwentyFive said:
In the Eredivisie yes, but the Premier League is a totally different animal than the Eredivisie when it comes to physicality.
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You do know that the Dutch are the tallest people in the world right? So the average height of Eredivisie forwards is higher than the Premier League(183cm vs 181cm), with some teams that tend to play the long ball to their target man averaging 190cm for forwards. That makes his aerial stats even better.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Serious question; season is long, you need depth and shit like that but regarding central defenders, you always have first pair who starts most of games. So are we buying him as backup or first choice?
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Suspect there’ll be different lineups for top five games and for everyone else. Suspect he’ll start a lot vs the teams we should be beating.
sullydnl said:
You mention Ruben Dias but he won just 59.6% of his aerial duels last season, leaving him in the bottom 29% of CBs in Europe in terms of the percentage of aerial duels won.

And yet Man City conceded the joint-fewest goals in all of Europe's big 5 leagues.

If anything he's proof of what people mean when they talk about setting up in such a way that aerial dominance from your CB is less important. Because if it matters as much in the PL as some people seem to think, he would have been a crippling weakness in that title-winning defence.

But in reality football is such that a CB like Dias will contest roughly 3-4 aerial duels per game, as opposed to say passing the ball 83-84 times per game. That's how much more central what he does on the ball is to what's required of him as a CB, to name just one aspect of play.

And most people raising the issue with Martinez aren't even talking about his aerial ability. They're talking about his height, which is a worse way of trying to measure the same thing.
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Good post. Height is meaningless on its own, aerial prowess is more relevant but far less significant than having a guy who can defend space and create attacks from central defence.
 
Have a feeling this guy would be used as a DM, so far no link with a CDM we desperately need. He played there and certainly has the skillset to mop around in front of the actual CBs and start the attacks.. We would add steel and composure for starting the attacks. When some of our forgotten players rediscover the skill of making proper runs, we mgiht be a great attacking team to watch with solid defense.
 
Height is pretty clearly of some importance because if you have the positioning, the leap and the competitiveness but so does the striker there's a chance you can be beaten to the ball. There are a few danger men around that are good in the air and tall so it would be stupid to not at least question how this is going to transition to this league. It's something we'd find out pretty quickly because it will 100% get targeted until he proves it's a non issue.

But ultimately it's still possible to make it work. We sign centre backs with weaknesses all the time. So do most clubs, how many perfect ones are there? Some have dubious positioning, some are slow, some are only okay on the ball, some are good on the ball but prone to calamities. There's only a handful of fully rounded ones. Is height a big enough issue if he's great in everything else? Probably not, hopefully not - but it's worth discussing.
 
I’m glad Burnley have gone down… there the masters at pumping the ball up. Not just them though every single team will target a small defender… we hardly scored of set pieces last season and certainly won’t this season with a smaller defender. Teams are going to cross all day long against us.
 
Abraxas said:
Height is pretty clearly of some importance because if you have the positioning, the leap and the competitiveness but so does the striker there's a chance you can be beaten to the ball. There are a few danger men around that are good in the air and tall so it would be stupid to not at least question how this is going to transition to this league. It's something we'd find out pretty quickly because it will 100% get targeted until he proves it's a non issue.

But ultimately it's still possible to make it work. We sign centre backs with weaknesses all the time. So do most clubs, how many perfect ones are there? Some have dubious positioning, some are slow, some are only okay on the ball, some are good on the ball but prone to calamities. There's only a handful of fully rounded ones. Is height a big enough issue if he's great in everything else? Probably not, hopefully not - but it's worth discussing.
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You aren't wrong, but surely Dutch football has some big strikers too? and what about CL?

If his height is as much of a problem as people are trying to make out, why isn't there loads of footage of him being destroyed on crosses/corners etc?
 
golden_blunder said:
Where were all these concerns for the past 5-6 years when I’ve been banging the drum about Lindelof? Everyone said he was ok and Martinez stacks up positively versus him so not sure why the change of mood just because he’s small? He’s more aggressive and front foot so that will take him far in this league
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ffs....if he's half as mental as Rojo but better on the ball then fuking sign him up b/c Lindelof is about as soft as you can get for a CB
 
Martinez would be a part of a defensive unit that could play higher on the pitch like ETH sets his team up...him and Varane could form a strong duo
 
Poborsky's hair said:
Have a feeling this guy would be used as a DM, so far no link with a CDM we desperately need. He played there and certainly has the skillset to mop around in front of the actual CBs and start the attacks.. We would add steel and composure for starting the attacks. When some of our forgotten players rediscover the skill of making proper runs, we mgiht be a great attacking team to watch with solid defense.
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I think De jong would be the DM. It's been posted several times that de jong is usually the deepest midfielder.
Honest question, between Vidal and Pirlo, who was the DM?
 
johanovic said:
Martinez would be a part of a defensive unit that could play higher on the pitch like ETH sets his team up...him and Varane could form a strong duo
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No, no, no. He’s not 6’8” and so can’t stand on the 6 yard line and head long balls away all day like a proper defender. We don’t need any of those “ball playing defenders”, bunch of Jessies, we need a good strong English-style centre-half.
 
The Urban Goose said:
No, no, no. He’s not 6’8” and so can’t stand on the 6 yard line and head long balls away all day like a proper defender. We don’t need any of those “ball playing defenders”, bunch of Jessies, we need a good strong English-style centre-half.
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How many successful CBs did we have who were shorter then 6ft?
 
Flexdegea said:
Why are Arsenal still in for him?


Surely they must know we match any offers and wages and he going to want to play for Hag
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Arsenal must have got the signal from his camp that he is opened to the move. Anyway it seems like Edu is unwilling to meet Ajax's asking price.
 
golden_blunder said:
I don’t disagree but in fairness it’s hard to attack when you can’t get the ball back
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Hopefully we are similar in the near future. Revamping midfield imperative of course.

Right back too.
 
I’m excited to sign Martinez but I know a lot of people are downplaying his height, but we can’t abandon all physical aspects of the premier league. Even though tall strikers are fewer nowadays, don’t forget you still have very tall defenders who are a huge threat at set pieces and corners. Set pieces is a big part of the premier league.

We can’t start lining up every week with a team full of average heights.

If we look at our potential lineup for this season as it stands, we will have some games where it will be:

De Gea

Dalot
Varane
Martinez
Malacia

De jong
Eriksen
Bruno

Sancho
Rashford/Martial
Elanga

Defending set pieces will be a nightmare having only Varane with any significant height. We are already terrible at defending corners and set pieces when we have a GK who refuses to come for anything aerially. So that puts all the burden on the outfield players to win the physical battles.

I’m all for Martinez, but I’m still concerned how we deal with set pieces. Especially as we have potentially lost Pogba, Matic, Maguire, Ronaldo and McTominay from our primary starting line up.

Man City is not a good comparison. They could field a team full of small players and still be ok because they are a team that concedes the least shots and corners against them in the league because most teams can’t even get into their final 3rd.
 
House Mkhitaryan said:
This is well said. I agree with just about everything you say here except about De Ligt. I'd take Martinez over him as well. I've not been impressed with De Ligt whenever I've seen him. Looks like the Dutch Maguire to me. His performance against Villarreal this year in the Champions League was one of the worst I've ever seen from any defender.
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De Ligt is far better than Maguire and also better than Martinez. I've seen a lot of both and De Ligt is another level. De Ligt is better than Timber as well.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
Arsenal must have got the signal from his camp that he is opened to the move. Anyway it seems like Edu is unwilling to meet Ajax's asking price.
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Sounds like a perfect exit strategy, claim too much to get out of the move.

To be honest I think he be a top signing for both of us. Strong character with leadership qualities is exactly what we both need.
 
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