Lisandro Martinez | Man Utd player - Contract till 2027, with the option to extend for a further year

A-man said:
It’s really hard to predict stats from one league to another. His aerial success stats from CL are:
2021/22: 63%
2020/21: 27%
2019/20: 50%

Most important in the end is not to win an aerial, but not to lose it.
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This is why I'm not completely sold on his domestic stats.

FBREF have last season's CL stats as 55.2% aerial duel success which is bottom 20th percentile for centre backs. Granted this is a smaller sample size of 8 games so it is possible it's not a fair reflection. The previous seasons CL stats are worse at 51.9% and 41.4% but again small sample size. Maybe he's not as aerially weak as the CL stats suggest however I'm almost certain he's not as aerially strong as people on here seem to think he is.

Logically I just can't see him coming into the premier league and being an aerially dominant centre back at his size. It would be a very rare exception. What we'd then have to hope is we're so dominant as a team that a weakness is rarely exposed to the point where it doesn't really matter. I think we're in for a surprise if we think our games will be so one-sided in our favour that teams won't be able to exploit a fundamental weakness.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Decent singing. Again strange in that we have signed 3 players and none are for sure starters.

Time will tell on that front.

Fee is crazy though
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Malacia will definitely dislodge Shaw in short order. Martinez and Eriksen will also start. Eriksen can play deeper.
FDJ is responsible for primarily linking up play from defenders (even though Eriksen also good in that aspect). Against weaker opponents a midfield of Eriksen And FDJ will do with Bruno at 10.
 
tjb said:
Eaxctly, the game is changing an tbh it has always been this way. It's more important that a team has a quality talent than a player who is simply good for his position. Look at our best teams and players, most of them were great and played in different roles. People always act like this is an Ajax thing, but its true for most top teams.
At United alone, we've had Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Ole, Irwin, Ole play in multiple roles. We have also had versatile squad players like Brown, O'shea, Park and Fletcher do the same. This feature allowed us to have teams littered with quality despite suffering injuries to some of our best players at different points.
In today's game, City, Liverpool and Bayern all have extremely versatile players starring in their teams.
City's entire frontline last season all had spells at the 9 role. Foden and Grealish could also play in one of the attacking midfield roles. Cancelo could play in either full back areas. DeBruyne and Bernardo Silva could also play on the flanks. Gundogan would come in at times and could play in anyone of the 3 midfield roles. What mattered the most was the fact that these players had the quality in different facets of their game to play different positions. Whereas for us, we couldn't even get Martial or Rashford to play on the right flank. Ronaldo did not play in any position outside of the 9 role.
Liverpool challenged City. They have three strong centre back choices. Milner and Oxlade can chip in in any position that is required. Henderson can comfortably take on the DM role when needed. Diaz, Salah, Jota and Mane could all play across the front line. Firmino could also come in an play as a 10 if required. Rather than simply have decent players for each position, they focused on attaining great quality players that were hard working and versatile enough to play in different roles whilst ensuring depth for the team. Whereas at United, our fans are already complaining about where Eriksen will play despite the versatility other teams have. Some are crying about VDB not playing his "ideal" role.

Bayern take this a step further. Lucas Hernandez can play LB and Centre back. Alonso Davies can play full back, wing back or left wing. They have Pavard who can play right back or centre back. Kimmich can play on either role in midfield or at right back. Gnabry Musiala and Muller can play right wing, AM or left wing. Sane can play on either flank as well.

What is important is that a team has good players, good players that can fulfill certain duties the manager wants. Not necessarily their role. Martinez brings a stopper who can cut out counter attacker, whilst having the ball playing ability to get the ball consistently into the midfield area. Currently, we don't have this type of player. Also add to this, Ten Haag builds up with 3 players at the back with either a CM, LB or RB coming in to support the two centre backs. Having 2 of Varane and Martinez always being in that position gives us a good amount of quality in the build up.
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Spot on
 
Not going to obsess over the fee like many. We got VDB for only 30 and he was rubbish. What matters is the quality of the player.
 
Todd said:
Guy is basically my exact size, and I can tell you all, I wouldn't make it in the EPL.
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He's also left footed like me, and I definitely wouldn't make it in the PL. That tells you everything you need to know about him.
 
Dominos said:
Is there any evidence of this?

I think the final straw with our scouting department was when they searched the globe for a centre back and right back, and they concluded Maguire and Wan Bisakka were our best options despite the fact they'd cost a fortune, £130m to be exact. Is it possible they reccomended several other options and Ole for some reason overuled everyone and insisted on AWB/Magure? Sure. I've not seen any evidence of that though.
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Funny story about this.

So, this was around the time Joel Glazer claimed we had an amazing database of players.

Wan Bissaka was chosen out of something like 800 full backs from a database.

That database was not data gathered by our scouts. It was outsourced work from a company that provide scouting databases known as Wyscout.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Dont think you can ever buy a truly finished product from the Dutch league. It's just different game here.

Apart from Luis Suarez I cant really name any recent instant premier league successes from the Dutch league.
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They all get bought then played in different system. Ziyech is doing well despite his small size though.
 
Dominos said:
This is why I'm not completely sold on his domestic stats.

FBREF have last season's CL stats as 55.2% aerial duel success which is bottom 20th percentile for centre backs. Granted this is a smaller sample size of 8 games so it is possible it's not a fair reflection. The previous seasons CL stats are worse at 51.9% and 41.4% but again small sample size. Maybe he's not as aerially weak as the CL stats suggest however I'm almost certain he's not as aerially strong as people on here seem to think he is.

Logically I just can't see him coming into the premier league and being an aerially dominant centre back at his size. It would be a very rare exception. What we'd then have to hope is we're so dominant as a team that a weakness is rarely exposed to the point where it doesn't really matter. I think we're in for a surprise if we think our games will be so one-sided in our favour that teams won't be able to exploit a fundamental weakness.
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I don't think that will be the case.

But I think we're trying to build the team to the point where that is the case. And in order to do so you have to sign players for the team you're trying to become rather than the team you currently are. Because you can't wait until the system works before signing the players who make the system work.

If it costs you goals in the short term then you have to live with that. It's part of why we'll only be aiming for a top four spot this season and not a title, there are inevitably going to be teething problems and flaws.

Though I think they're far more likely to come in the form of goals like the one we conceded against Melbourne or situations like the below against Liverpool, where our aggressive but inexact play puts us in tricky positions. Because regardless of how well Martinez' aerial ability translates to our team, some people are still massively overrating the importance of aerial ability relative to everything else a CB has to deal with.

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sullydnl said:
I don't think that will be the case.

But I think we're trying to build the team to the point where that is the case. And in order to do so you have to sign players for the team you're trying to become rather than the team you currently are. Because you can't wait until the system works before signing the players who make the system work.

If it costs you goals in the short term then you have to live with that. It's part of why we'll only be aiming for a top four spot this season and not a title, there are inevitably going to be teething problems and flaws.

Though I think they're far more likely to come in the form of goals like the one we conceded against Melbourne or situations like the below against Liverpool, where our aggressive but inexact play puts us in tricky positions. Because regardless of how well Martinez' aerial ability translates to our team, some people are still massively overrating the importance of aerial ability relative to everything else a CB has to deal with.
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The issue with this logic is I don't think you have to compromise. This isn't a video game where having strength in one attribute means you have to have weakness in another. This has shades of us trying to convince ourselves that Maguire's pace won't be an issue because it's all about the team's organisation or whatever the spiel is. Is Martinez the only centre back in the world that is good on the ball? Liverpool have managed to find themselves 3 centre backs who are aerially dominant, quick, good on the ball and can defend 1v1. They didn't opt to build their team around trying to compensate for fundamental weaknesses in their centre backs, they chose to recruit players who are good all round.
 
He's basically the same height as me so I'm a bit concerned about it but It seems like Ten Hag will be playing high line so ability to stop counters will be key and from what I've heard he's quite god at that side of the game.
 
Dominos said:
The issue with this logic is I don't think you have to compromise. This isn't a video game where having strength in one attribute means you have to have weakness in another. This has shades of us trying to convince ourselves that Maguire's pace won't be an issue because it's all about the team's organisation or whatever the spiel is. Is Martinez the only centre back in the world that is good on the ball? Liverpool have managed to find themselves 3 centre backs who are aerially dominant, quick, good on the ball and can defend 1v1. They didn't opt to build their team around trying to compensate for fundamental weaknesses in their centre backs, they chose to recruit players who are good all round.
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We're going in circles. This is a repeat of the Timber discussion.

As I responded back then, doesn't every player come with a compromise? Nobody is perfect. Somebody having height, doesn't mean the player is perfect. Now I know that isn't what you mean, but that is the implication when you state only a player that checks off every attribute as "not being a compromise."

I don't know why you view players as if there is a checklist to mark off. Is there not a compromise between the CB profile (that is available) you want United to sign, and Martinez? Because how many players are as good on the ball as him? However, you will only view Martinez as the compromise and not another CB simply because of height difference, and not because of Martinez's superior ball playing ability. I just can never agree with that viewpoint.

I would rather look at players as fits onto a system, and how they provide the team attributes so that the sum of the parts is complete. For example, it is entirely possible to have his height as a negative, but if the team has sufficient height relative to the competition, then him being short doesn't matter. We've had midfields of Pogba, Mctominay, and Matic. Even though we didn't have short CB's at that time, would it even hurt to have one considering the midfield comprises of giants? Similarly, Chelsea have had midfield consisting of Kante, Jorginho, and Kovacic. Because their CBs were of normal height for the position, does that all of a sudden give them an advantage over United if United had Martinez as a CB with that United midfield? I don't think so.

I think Maguire is more of a problem than Martinez considering the high line Ten Hag wants to play. We're far more likely to concede due to speedy counter attacks than goals off headers.
 
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Another one wrapped up. Hopefully comes in and justifies the fee. At the very least it is another player who we know understands how we are wanting to play.
 
In Rainbows said:
We're going in circles. This is a repeat of the Timber discussion.

As I responded back then, doesn't every player come with a compromise? Nobody is perfect. Somebody having height, doesn't mean the player is perfect. Now I know that isn't what you mean, but that is the implication when you state only a player that checks off every attribute as "not being a compromise."

I don't know why you view players as if there is a checklist to mark off. Is there not a compromise between the CB profile (that is available) you want United to sign, and Martinez? Because how many players are as good on the ball as him? However, you will only view Martinez as the compromise and not another CB simply because of height difference, and not because of Martinez's superior ball playing ability.
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It's not about being elite in every single attribute, it's about not having major weaknesses that are there to be targeted and exploited by the opposition. For example I don't think being lightning quick is absolutely necessary, but you certainly can't be as slow as Maguire. Maguire being unable to run certainly feels like a compromise because it's too far below the minimum standard.

If a player is poor on the ball then it's a compromise, sure. If, for example, they're good on the ball but not as good as Martinez, then I wouldn't consider that a compromise.

I think a certain level of aerial dominance is just a fundamental attribute a centre back should have if you're building an ideal team. I feel like a fair few managers would agree and it's possibly why there are no first choice 5ft 9 centre backs currently in the premier league. Now, he may be a freak exception to the rule and not have any problems at all, it's just an opinion on a discussion forum at the end of the day.
 
Great stuff, I think he'll do really well for us. Seems to have that touch of Argie fire about him.

I just hope he isn't too tall for the PL.
 
Happy with this signing. All top teams need at least 4 good rotatable CB in case of injuries. Also if we are playing a high line, a mobile CB is going to be crucial. Looking forward to see what ETH's masterplan is.
 
sglowrider said:
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Good video, he ends the video saying "no one knows where he is going to play", i think that's the right answer for now. Would lean heavily on CB position for now as that's where he played in last couple of seasons.
 
Not a fan of the high transfer fee but I like the signing, and the profile of the type of player he is. He seems like someone who can thrive in a back 3 at the very least.
 
roonster09 said:
Good video, he ends the video saying "no one knows where he is going to play", i think that's the right answer for now. Would lean heavily on CB position for now as that's where he played in last couple of seasons.
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As ETH says, his system is dependent on the players he has. But like the video says, the left CB make sense especially for passing out fast.
 
Wow is he fecking expensive..

Lets hope this one works out, although we've got so much competition in the CB spots right now it won't matter.

Hopefully he gets to play some in midfield as well. We need better players in that area.

If we add FDJ then nobody can say we haven't backed the manager this summer.

We've spent by far the most out of any club.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
That’s a lot of money for a center back only a season after spending on Varane and a fortune on Maguire prior to it. I seriously hope Ten Hag is right in this one.
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Varane, Bailly and Maguire are all average on the ball. Lindelof is better but Martinez? He’s a legitimate BALLER. We need press-resistant passers at back to form the backbone of ETH’s possession styled systems. What’s the point of training to be a possession team if all the opposition need to do to stifle you is hard press your defence?
 
He's shorter than me so. Just a bit of information you needed this morning.
 
Anyone think martinez will play as much in DM as he will CB? I can see us playing de gea, dalot, Maguire, Varane, Malacia, martinez, Bruno, eriksen, sancho, martial, rashford, in a 4-3-3. That team should dominate most of the premier league teams. Obviously if we get de Jong then he’ll have to fit somewhere in that midfielder and martinez might drop down into defence. I think ten Hag will change it quite a bit depending on the opponent.
 
DJ_21 said:
Anyone think martinez will play as much in DM as he will CB? I can see us playing de gea, dalot, Maguire, Varane, Malacia, martinez, Bruno, eriksen, sancho, martial, rashford, in a 4-3-3. That team should dominate most of the premier league teams. Obviously if we get de Jong then he’ll have to fit someone in that midfielder and martinez might drop down into defence. I think ten Hag will change it quite a bit depending on the opponent.
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Yes you are correct. He is certainly bought for his versatility, since his attributes span across a few positions. He basically can play anywhere across the defensive half of the pitch which gives ETH a lot of options.
 
Can someone explain to me why in such convincing fashion some of you are describing him as perfect for the "system" when others are claiming and from what I have seen of him also, he does not seem as pacey? Should pace be a relevant concern about him?

And another question, how good is he actually at CDM?
 
Kostov said:
Can someone explain to me why in such convincing fashion some of you are describing him as perfect for the "system" when others are claiming and from what I have seen of him also, he does not seem as pacey? Should pace be a relevant concern about him?

And another question, how good is he actually at CDM?
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He’s perfect for the system as his build up play is quality and will help us massively in possession which is why ten Hag brought him in, he wants players who are comfortable on the ball. I also don’t think he’s as slow as people are making out, he’s pretty quick from what I’ve seen, I highly doubt ten Hag would of brought in another slow defender like Maguire to play an high line which is what he prefers.
 
Overall I'm happy with this signing. I understand the reservations some fans have due to his height, transfer fee and coming from a less competitive league but I really think he will be a good player for us.

Although he isn't the tallest it seems like he is still strong in the air. He will also be our most aggressive defender alongside maybe Bailly. We also need a player who is comfortable with the ball at his feet to suit ETHs preferred style of play.

I think that CB is one of those areas that although we seem stacked with options it's really a false representation. Varane and Bailly have massive question marks over fitness, Maguire has question marks over ability and Lindelof although pretty good last season can suffer from lack of physicality and being too slow.

At the end of the day we have brought in ETH to transform the team based on how he performed at Ajax. There is always a risk with a manager raiding his old team and league to buy players but if we believe in ETH then we need to believe in his choice of transfers. I think Martinez will be an integral part of allowing us to build up play from the back and be a more possession based team.
 
DJ_21 said:
Anyone think martinez will play as much in DM as he will CB? I can see us playing de gea, dalot, Maguire, Varane, Malacia, martinez, Bruno, eriksen, sancho, martial, rashford, in a 4-3-3. That team should dominate most of the premier league teams. Obviously if we get de Jong then he’ll have to fit somewhere in that midfielder and martinez might drop down into defence. I think ten Hag will change it quite a bit depending on the opponent.
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I was thinking the same, paying 50 mil on a player to keep him on the bench would be strange.
The rumours were that Maguire will still be the captain and if Varane is not injured than we already have the CB pairing. Would be interesting to see where will Martinez be used and how will he perform in front of the defence.
 
Kostov said:
Can someone explain to me why in such convincing fashion some of you are describing him as perfect for the "system" when others are claiming and from what I have seen of him also, he does not seem as pacey? Should pace be a relevant concern about him?

And another question, how good is he actually at CDM?
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Pace depends on the position. You need pace if you are playing on the wings due to the need of tracking back and attacking forward. For a CB or a CDM, the key attribute is not pace but positioning and reading of the game.

For Martinez, he is misunderstood to be slow because he rarely runs around. In reality, he is a player who is very intelligent in reading the game which means that he is always one step ahead of the opponent in his positioning. When the opponent is attacking, he will quickly move into positions which narrows down their attacking channels and then tackles the moment they hesitate on their decision making. He is also good at tracking the player who has the ball without jumping into challenges.

He is also a very good CDM as he possesses all the required attributes, which are reading of the game, positioning, tackling/interceptions and ball retention. In addition he can make very good passes, which gives us more options during possession.
 
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