Is he even that slow? Lack of pace is always an issue, but is it even true here?
Lisandro Martinez | Man Utd player - Contract till 2027, with the option to extend for a further year
- Thread starter roonster09
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Yeah that picture will not go away. It looked like he had used a flamethrower instead of a toaster.
I think the best option would be to play him as the DM against teams that play more direct and cross a lot, that way we will still have Maguire and Varane to deal with the aerial threat. Against the top teams he might be used as a cb as he is very comfortable on the ball and will help our build up play against teams that like to press high up like city/Liverpool. Maguire cracks under pressure so he’s useless when we get pressed on, I think martinez will change this.
I don’t think he’s that slow. Definitely not like Maguire slow. I know a lot of people are saying he’s got a lack of pace but I just can’t see Ten Hag signing a slow defender if he’s going to be playing an high line. Unless he’s been bought to just play DM, still need a bit of pace for that position though but his reading of the game and tackling should make up for it.
Most of our CBs are comfortable on the ball imo, how much better is he compared to them? And not as slow as Maguire is definitely not something that inspires confidence.
Ziyech is an attacker though, bit of a difference. He's also not doing that well, he's never been a started and isn't Tuchel offloading him?
With Ziyech I was actually convinced he would be a massive success at Chelsea. Shows how much I know
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In terms of being perfect for the system, first there's his ball playing ability as a left-footed centre-back which is central to how we will play under this system. I think I'm right in saying Martinez played a greater proprotion of passes in that Ajax defence than any of our current CBs play in ours. He's going to be very dominant on the ball in that area
Defensively his ability in 1v1 situations has also been cited, which is vital in this system as our CBs will quite often find themselves in such positions.
There's also his tactical profile. See the below piece of analysis on the slightly unusual way ETH uses his centre-backs, to which Martinez is central. As the piece argues, not every CB has the capacity to play that way. In Martinez we're signing someone we know can, which isn't the case with alternatives like the scouting department's choice Pau Torres.
When pressed from goal-kicks, Ajax utilised vertical decoy runs from their centrebacks to open passing lanes directly from the keeper. Ajax could play out – or at least play to areas of lower risk despite sticking to their principles. The degree of tactical complexity that the centrebacks must be aware of is rare – centrebacks do not usually move ahead of play in this regard, as they’re typically the most important constituents of rest defence (rest defence = predictive defending in possession).
Even from a throw in, we can see how aggressive Martinez is at occupying vacated space, making himself an option. This occurred despite causing him and Timber (the centreback pair) to stagger to quite a severe degree. It *appears* high risk.
Furthermore, in settled build-up, Martinez was often found vacating his post in centreback entirely. It may be a stretch to call him a centreback in this regard, because of how much conviction he’d stagger the lines with.
Alvarez, one of the deep midfielders actually dis-marked to receive deep in this scenario. Martinez is still seen staggering the lines. This is a vertical rotation as such: the CB advancing and the CM dropping in. Blind (out of shot) has dropped narrow to aid rest defence.
These vertical counter-movements are typically seen further up the pitch, when looking to progress (and sometimes force) play. Seeing it executed with such regularity in deep positions in build-up is unconventional.
Even from a throw in, we can see how aggressive Martinez is at occupying vacated space, making himself an option. This occurred despite causing him and Timber (the centreback pair) to stagger to quite a severe degree. It *appears* high risk.
Furthermore, in settled build-up, Martinez was often found vacating his post in centreback entirely. It may be a stretch to call him a centreback in this regard, because of how much conviction he’d stagger the lines with.
Alvarez, one of the deep midfielders actually dis-marked to receive deep in this scenario. Martinez is still seen staggering the lines. This is a vertical rotation as such: the CB advancing and the CM dropping in. Blind (out of shot) has dropped narrow to aid rest defence.
These vertical counter-movements are typically seen further up the pitch, when looking to progress (and sometimes force) play. Seeing it executed with such regularity in deep positions in build-up is unconventional.
Can't say I've watched loads of him but from clips and Youtube videos I'd say he looks above average pace so I'm not sure how this is a conversation........ Especially when players like Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Pique etc weren't the quickest either.
I like the look of him from what I've seen. If Varane can sort his shit out then it could be a very good partnership.
I like the look of him from what I've seen. If Varane can sort his shit out then it could be a very good partnership.
Hope this Argentinian will finally work at United, we dont have luck with Argies.
To be honest Maguire made horrible mistakes in build-up even against smaller teams that pressed us, so if ETH will rely too much in playing from the back then hopefully he would ditch Maguire, but considering Varane's injury record we will still end up with him in the starting line up.
You mean someone who will have a longer than them, as we did have success with Heinze and Tevez. However they only stayed a while.
I think that is not a relevant comparation, one of them played in a well drilled team under a much much better manager, our players played in a team in which every one struggles to pass and our CMs are Fulham quality level. However I do hope all this hype about his playing ability is warranted and he does look levels above our current CBs, which I struggle to see how, since I think Maguire, Varane and Lindelof are quite good and comfortable with the ball in their feet and solid passers under a manager who will now how to make it work. So in short Martinez imo needs to be really really good to warrant the hype.
This might be interesting, and hopefully true. By most reason, his small build should help him in 1v1? How is his pace compared to Varane?
This looks interesting, however it does look like something well coached and I am not saying that it is all down to coaching, but do you think our CBs can adapt to it?There's also his tactical profile. See the below piece of analysis on the slightly unusual way ETH uses his centre-backs, to which Martinez is central. As the piece argues, not every CB has the capacity to play that way. In Martinez we're signing someone we know can, which isn't the case with alternatives like the scouting department's choice Pau Torres.
When pressed from goal-kicks, Ajax utilised vertical decoy runs from their centrebacks to open passing lanes directly from the keeper. Ajax could play out – or at least play to areas of lower risk despite sticking to their principles. The degree of tactical complexity that the centrebacks must be aware of is rare – centrebacks do not usually move ahead of play in this regard, as they’re typically the most important constituents of rest defence (rest defence = predictive defending in possession).
Even from a throw in, we can see how aggressive Martinez is at occupying vacated space, making himself an option. This occurred despite causing him and Timber (the centreback pair) to stagger to quite a severe degree. It *appears* high risk.
Furthermore, in settled build-up, Martinez was often found vacating his post in centreback entirely. It may be a stretch to call him a centreback in this regard, because of how much conviction he’d stagger the lines with.
Alvarez, one of the deep midfielders actually dis-marked to receive deep in this scenario. Martinez is still seen staggering the lines. This is a vertical rotation as such: the CB advancing and the CM dropping in. Blind (out of shot) has dropped narrow to aid rest defence.
These vertical counter-movements are typically seen further up the pitch, when looking to progress (and sometimes force) play. Seeing it executed with such regularity in deep positions in build-up is unconventional.
And how good as Martinez as a CDM? Can he play there for us in the PL?
Pace has never been the problem for Maguire. His biggest issue is general mobility and agility on the turn. I don’t know for sure but I’d expect that being a smaller nimble player Martinez will be very fast on the turn even if his straight line sprint speed is nothing to write home about.
Not really, his acceleration is rather good, might not have the greatest top speed. But he'll do
Seeing as one of our biggest ongoing problems is the players' attitude I for one am delighted Ten Hag is picking his own men and I'll happily overpay if it means forming a strong core that will run through brickwalls for him.
There’s a vid knocking round of his performance vs Haaland/Dortmund where he seems to play a blinder. In one incident he comfortably outpaces Haaland (admittedly over a fairly short distance) Worth digging out and having a look if you’re worried.
Thanks I had a look and found this:
1:45 if anyone is interested. Haaland is interrupted in his sprint but Martinez still looks rather quick off the mark. Looks good enough in my opinion.
Lisandro Martinez: Why Manchester United pushed hard to beat Arsenal to £55m deal
Laurie Whitwell, Art de Roché and more
Jul 18, 2022
Manchester United have reached an agreement to sign Lisandro Martinez, beating Arsenal to the Argentina centre-back. Arsenal hit first but United struck harder and agreed a deal with Ajax that the player readily accepted.
United have agreed to pay about £47million (€55m) for Martinez, plus another £8.5m (€10m) in potential add-ons, with the 24-year-old signing a five-year contract with the option of an additional year.
United’s chief executive Richard Arnold and football director John Murtough travelled to Amsterdam last week to finalise talks, with Ajax chief executive Edwin van der Sar instrumental on the Dutch side.
United view Martinez primarily as a centre-back to provide a different profile of competition to Harry Maguire, Raphael Varane and Victor Lindelof, with the club open to offers for Eric Bailly and Phil Jones.
Erik ten Hag brought Martinez to Ajax in the summer of 2019 as a possible successor to left-back and countryman Nicolas Tagliafico, who is 30 next month, but he instead operated centrally and though not tall at 5ft 9in (175cm), he proved himself one of the best on the ball in the team.
Ten Hag likes players he knows well and can trust. At one stage during a tough period, he benched Martinez for a while but the player responded and regained his place. In Martinez, Ten Hag recognised the mentality he requires.
In terms of playing style, Martinez has brought an edge that Ajax lacked. They are often not as aggressive without him. One game stands out: Ajax’s Champions League game at home to Borussia Dortmund last October. Martinez bettered Erling Haaland in all their duels and Ten Hag made a point of congratulating him in the dressing room after his team’s 4-0 win.
A major draw for Mikel Arteta at Arsenal, meanwhile, was Martinez’s versatility. His ability to play as a left-sided centre-back, at left-back and as a defensive midfielder added to the appeal.
His utility was not the sole reason for the pursuits of United and Arsenal, however. Here, The Athletic assesses the trends of Martinez’s play in respective positions, where he excels, and where there is room for improvement.
For a starting point, here is a general look at his statistics from the 2021-22 campaign.
For these metrics, context is key. Smarterscout’s 0-99 rating relates to how often a player does a given stylistic action compared with others playing in that position. Rather than just totals per 90, these actions are measured per attacking or defensive touch of the ball, which gives a clearer indication of a player’s inclination to play a certain way.
With Martinez, it is clear that he is an aggressive, front-foot defender, shown by his high defending intensity rating (98 out of 99). He is comfortable on the ball, regularly playing short and sharp passes to a nearby team-mate (link-up play volume 74 out of 99), and keeping possession at a high rate (ball retention 80 out of 99) and can create from deep, advancing the ball into dangerous areas (xG from ball progression 95 out of 99). Now for a more detailed look at how he approaches these aspects of play.
How he defends on the ground
He is proactive when defending in ground duels. His smarterscout ratings of 97 out 99 for disrupting opposition moves and 99 out of 99 for ball recoveries and interceptions paint a picture of this — showing that he will frequently look to make tackles and block passes when out of possession.
Watching him defend, this comes down to his anticipation and reading of the game. Rather than waiting for a player to attack him with the ball, he often looks to engage the carrier or receiver, and initiate contact, putting himself in control of the situation.
This worked particularly well for Ten Hag at Ajax. Martinez playing on the front foot meant that his side could defend higher upfield and if the Argentine timed his challenge well, it could result in quick turnovers of play, turning defence into attack within seconds.
In this instance, against ADO Den Haag in March 2021, Martinez has already stepped up from the defensive line anticipating the pass infield.
With eyes on the passer, when the ball is released, he slides in to tackle the ball cleanly and stop the receiving player in their tracks.
After intercepting the ball, he plays a pass straight to Davy Klaassen on the turn, with Ajax now entering the final third.
Martinez goes to ground like this fairly often when defending.
This is the case both when going in for tackles on the front foot as well as when he is running towards his own goal or the touchline to hook channel balls away from danger.
He often times these challenges well but as he is not the fastest defender there are times when he is caught out. That is not a major issue, as no defender will win every one of his duels, but is something to be aware of as his aggressive style of defending may backfire at times.
How he defends in the air
A lot has been made of Martinez’s height — 5ft 9ins is short for a centre-back but he is not weak in the air. As his smarterscout rating of 96 out of 99 for aerial duel quantity suggests, he does not shy away from taking flight.
Despite the Eredivisie being a less physical league than the Premier League, he still had to find ways of being successful in the air. Similarly to his approach on the ground, he tends to engage his opposite number first when defending aerially in open play.
When Ajax beat RKC Waalwijk 3-2 in March, Martinez was up against 6ft 2in (188cm) Jens Odgaard. His touch-tight style was clear on three of the five aerial duels he won against the Waalwijk forward.
Take the below as an example.
Disrupting Odgaard enough, Martinez is in control and wins the header from behind.
If unable to disrupt opponents by grappling with them, having a run-up helps Martinez, as was the case against Benfica in the Champions League.
With eyes for the ball, he has little trouble connecting in the air.
Facing more physical opponents, he has had more protection. When Borussia Dortmund went long against Ajax in the Champions League, a midfielder would drop to disrupt Haaland, giving Martinez more time and space in the air.
This approach may be helpful in the Premier League against physical opponents such as Dominic Calvert-Lewin, Chris Wood or Haaland.
Able to hold his own aerially in open play, Martinez has a bit more difficulty in set-piece situations. This is mostly because a stationary start evens the playing field, allowing his marker or the player he is marking to try and dominate the situation — which can happen if they are more imposing than him.
What is he like in possession at centre-back?
Martinez is primarily a left-sided centre-back. His distribution from this position has got a lot of attention, and rightly so.
Although his smarterscout progressive passing rating is 17 out of 99 — which represents his share of passes that look to move the ball upfield by 10 metres or more — when he decides to go further forward, his accuracy helps Ajax massively. This is best illustrated by his ratings for xG from ball progression (95 out of 99) and xG from shot creation (93 out of 99). Put simply, his actions rate highly towards his team’s attack when compared with other left-sided centre-backs.
The 24-year-old will usually be safe with his passing but, when he has space, he will look for long diagonals to the right wing or behind the left side of the defence.
In this 3-0 win over Groningen last season, Martinez, Edson Alvarez and Davy Klaassen work a quick triangle of passes to create more space near the halfway line.
Getting the ball out of his feet, Martinez pings it into the highlighted space for right-back Noussair Mazraoui to chase.
Mazraoui finished first time on the volley, which shows how valuable Martinez’s vision and execution can be.
These passes will not always lead to goals but allow his team to get up the pitch quicker. They proved useful in the Champions League last season, where Martinez would often target Antony on the right wing. The only drawback is that, at times, defenders would decide to double up on Antony when those passes were made.
Aside from that, they remain the standout aspect of his game in possession. As well as hitting passes across the pitch, he has the ability to find the left winger making a run inside an opposition right-back and right centre-back, whether they be along the floor or over the top.
What is he like in possession at left-back?
Martinez has featured in seven games at left-back for Ajax. These appearances came between September 2020 and January 2021.
Not the quickest player, Martinez did not tend to overlap his winger to get crosses into the box. Instead, he was more reserved and selective with his actions in possession — like here against Fortuna Sittard, where he is found by centre-back Daley Blind.
Martinez attracts the attention of a midfielder but bounces the ball into Klaassen with his first touch, and Ajax can play through the middle of the pitch.
This Blind-to-Martinez inside pass was on against Den Haag.
Gaining possession under less pressure, the Argentina international played the ball out wide to keep the attack going.
When he decided to stay on the touchline, he often looked for passes infield to whoever was in the left half-space in midfield.
Here is an example from his first game at left-back against Waalwijk, where Martinez feeds Quincy Promes.
From there, Promes finds Dusan Tadic wide on the left, who isolated the right-back.
What is he like in midfield?
It was Martinez’s first season at Ajax — 2019-20 — when he played in midfield under Ten Hag. He started the season at centre-back, but from September was used regularly in a double pivot next to Alvarez or Donny van de Beek.
Similar to when he was used at centre-back, he was aggressive defensively and actively looked to turn the ball over. In his debut campaign in the Eredivisie, he averaged two tackles and interceptions per game.
Martinez was able to burst up the pitch from midfield, as well as being fairly composed under pressure. That season, he completed 83 per cent of his dribbles but his average of 0.6 per game shows he only travelled with the ball when he felt it was necessary, rather than it being a trademark.
That has helped since moving back into defence, where he often spins away from pressure.
When used in midfield, Martinez was partial to backheels and flicks to nearby team-mates, but is much safer at centre-back. He still tended to drop deep to distribute the ball, however, which is a theme that has continued.
He got his first Ajax assist in his first start in midfield, in September 2019, by picking up the ball deep and surveying his options.
As Promes makes the run, Martinez clips the ball in behind for his team-mate to chase and finish.
He was often used on the right. The benefits are clear in this passage of play as the pitch is more open for him to find forward players on both sides of the pitch.
For United, Martinez would provide an option in defensive midfield, a position in need of reinforcement. United have lost Nemanja Matic, with Scott McTominay and Fred better when allowed to get up and down the pitch. Martinez could provide that screen.
But he sees such a role as something he can do rather than what he is best at. He prefers central defence, which is where United and Ten Hag view him primarily.
United did not have centre-back high on their list of priorities when drawing up summer targets a few months ago. But Ten Hag’s arrival changed matters and raised Martinez to prominence.
The scouting department had been tracking Pau Torres as an alternative left-footed centre-back, but Ten Hag’s wish has been for a player he knows can operate in the style he wants.
Murtough is backing Ten Hag’s judgment in this regard, and continued to do so during negotiations with Ajax that became more complex as the talks went on. United have got the player at Ten Hag’s behest and it remains to be seen how he will now shape his defence.
(Other contributors: Mark Carey)
(Top photos: Getty Images; design: Sam Richardson)
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Lindelof is over 6ft and a wet lettuce
If he can learn the Harry Kane piledriver, defenders won't even bother competing for headers against him.
I'm 6ft 3'' and I'm totally useless at headers.
I'd easily beat ''Ice Man''
Lindelof in a fight though.
I'd easily beat ''Ice Man''
Lindelof in a fight though.That’s the thing that most worry’s me, we can’t get away with not playing Maguire because Ten hags made him captain, but he’s probably the only cb we have with lindelof that’s guaranteed to play the majority of games because he’s hardly injured like Varane is. Gonna be a martinez/lindelof or Maguire partnership for most of the season.
Melissa Reddy got exclusive interview with ten Hag which will be aired later, she said EtH went into details on why he feels this is money well spent.
That’s true… seen as though we’re going to be changing styles of play though and focusing more on possession and dominant football then the lower teams should hardly get a sniff at goal… I think most goals we will concede next season will be down to being counter attacked against… we’re going to be playing high line with full backs pushed right up. We’ll score a lot but we’ll probably concede a few aswell by being to open.
Awkward moment when he arrives and wins more headers than Maguire and Varane despite all these comments about his height.
This will change very quickly as we have some options at CB, and zero options at DM.
Can see it now, we get stuffed 4 by a bottom 10 team and Martinez will be a cdm until next summer.
I've heard from a reliable source that he cannot even dunk a basketball.
Get rid!!!
Get rid!!!
So ETH arrived, saw our defenders in action and told the club to get Martinez.
I know ETH has publicly backed Maguire and kept him as captain - but I think Maguire will be in and out of the side, and by the end of the season the writing will be on the wall and he'll look for a move next Summer.
You’ve been reading my posts. Don’t worry nobody is as good as Linda at pointing
I very much doubt it. He’s been bought as CB
Thats exactly what i thought.
Not sure if he is the right decision over Pau Torres , but am sure the club have done the right thing here by going with Ten Hag's choice which was Martinez.
Torres looks physically more suited to the premier league but we have to trust the manager knows what he is doing. The buck stops with him so it should be the players he wants.
Torres looks physically more suited to the premier league but we have to trust the manager knows what he is doing. The buck stops with him so it should be the players he wants.
We definitely didn't pay 45-50M for a rotation option. He'll be a starter.
The question is will Ten Hag change to a back 5? Or will he bench one of Maguire/Varane?
Which I wouldn't mind considering how boring and daft we have been most of the time in the last couple of years, with the exception of some periods under Ole.
Can’t see him changing formation from his preferred 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. The way ten Hag likes to play in a 4-3-3 it can change during games into a 3 at the back… the DM will drop back to create a 3 man defence whilst the full backs are pushed high up, this will suit martinez as he can stay back in defence and he’ll also be comfortable pushing a little higher into midfield if needs be.