[Pogue Mahone]

And yet he’s plummeted as a player. Or are you saying he’s the same guy who was proving critics wrong pre-fracture?

If you re-read my post you’ll see my take on what’s going on with him. There’s no plausible reason for a metatarsal fracture to suddenly transform a footballer in the way he would have to reading opinions on his ability, pre and post injury. He was a very long time out and when players are out a very long time it takes them a very long time getting back up to speed.

We had the same nonsense about VVD being finished (after a much more serious injury) and now look at him.

 

[Fortitude]

If you re-read my post you’ll see my take on what’s going on with him. There’s no plausible reason for a metatarsal fracture to suddenly transform a footballer in the way he would have to reading opinions on his ability, pre and post injury. He was a very long time out and when players are out a very long time it takes them a very long time getting back up to speed.

We had the same nonsense about VVD being finished (after a much more serious injury) and now look at him.

You can’t map a player out on what he was if he’s showing no signs of being that in the here and now, especially after what is a prolonged period of time. He clearly needs more cover and contingency than he did and may well have to adjust to whatever his limitations are in contrast to the player he once was. History is absolutely littered with players who came back from injury different to how they were. You mention VVD, but he has modified his game and was a stellar enough athlete in the first place to be able to fallback as something different but effective. Martinez is not a special athlete (nothing to do with his height) and doesn’t have margins to compensate for losing his initial athletic qualities in the same way.

The causes for concern with him are valid, how can they not be? We’re living through the mishaps because of them in real time.

 

[Isotope]

Are you kidding?

CBs cannot be wildly pulling out of their positions to 'compensate' for the abject weaknesses of another CB. That would destroy any semblance of defensive organisation.

"CB can not be cover the other CB/defender weakness". Yes that's why we're shipping goals with that line of thinking.

They're not "out of position" while only a few meters apart. Are they pissing to mark each other territory that can't be crossed?

 

[Lu Tze]

"CB can not be cover the other CB/defender weakness". Yes that's why we're shipping goals with that line of thinking.

They're not "out of position" while only a few meters apart. Are they pissing to mark each other territory that can't be crossed?

We're shipping goals because (as one of many considerations) we are playing a tiny CB that cannot win their duels. Do you think it's a coincidence that strong players are going to target him?

Fortitude has well explained why Maguire couldn't just abandon his position to cover Martinez' inadequacies.

 

[DWelbz19]

Last few pages I’ve seen people argue Martinez should be used in central midfield, and that a right sided CB in a back three wouldn’t be out of position if they moved over to assist the left sided CB if he’s struggling in duels. Insightful stuff.

 

[pocco]

If you re-read my post you’ll see my take on what’s going on with him. There’s no plausible reason for a metatarsal fracture to suddenly transform a footballer in the way he would have to reading opinions on his ability, pre and post injury. He was a very long time out and when players are out a very long time it takes them a very long time getting back up to speed.

We had the same nonsense about VVD being finished (after a much more serious injury) and now look at him.

It’s a possibility, but what is also a possibility is that his first season was a complete purple patch. And knowing our record, particularly under Ten Hag, I know what I’m going with. Even in his first season the cracks did begin to show at times, but his performances were often brushed under the rug because of how well he’d done in other games.

And let’s not forget, he wasn’t even the first choice CB we wanted from Ajax.

 

[Isotope]

We're shipping goals because (as one of many considerations) we are playing a tiny CB that cannot win their duels. Do you think it's a coincidence that strong players are going to target him?

Fortitude has well explained why Maguire couldn't just abandon his position to cover Martinez' inadequacies.

So what happen all those years when we played 4-4-2 with only 2 CB and short fullbacks like Evra?

Would Rio and Vidic allow Evra to mark "Joellington"?

City use Walker to cover other CBs with his speed. But they damn well will not let Walker to solely mark "Joelington". That's what a cooperation is about.

When Barca had Pique and Masch as pair CBs, Pique is in charge of taking care every crosses coming into the box. Not just "staying in his position". Instead of one, we have two big oaf CBs.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

The butchers been getting butchered recently, needs dropping for a while.

 

[Lu Tze]

So what happen all those years when we played 4-4-2 with only 2 CB and short fullbacks like Evra?

Evra (in particular) and Rafael had great leaps. When we played Valencia at RB he was neither short or weak in any respect. Evra would do better at CB than Martinez with his pace and leap.

Vidic and Rio were aerially dominant and our CMs such as Carrick were infinitely better at tracking runners where one came from midfield. So we were better covered than now when we have geriatrics in CM.

 

[gulli_G]

The butchers been getting butchered recently, needs dropping for a while.

He's no butcher, he's been serving up bad Tomato and Cucumber salads. Play him DM when needed but not CB.

 

[NLunited]

Martinez has gone vegan he isn't a butcher any more.

He's no butcher, he's been serving up bad Tomato and Cucumber salads. Play him DM when needed but not CB.

He can play cb, two big cb‘s out of three is enough.

The whole team is showing bad form. For me he is still an essential player. He can‘t play in midfield I don‘t think.

 

[gulli_G]

He can play cb, two big cb‘s out of three is enough.

The whole team is showing bad form. For me he is still an essential player. He can‘t play in midfield I don‘t think.

He had played in midfield before at Ajax.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

He's costing us goals every game. He needs to be taken out of the LCB role as a matter of priority. Every team we play have f**king giants playing for them and they are targeting him every single time, and why wouldn't they?

If he continues to start at LCB we are going to be knee deep in the relegation shit. I cannot put it any starker than that.

If he can do a job from time to time at LWB or M for the rest of the reason, fine. But he can't stay as one of the CBs, it's getting too serious now.

 

[NLunited]

He had played in midfield before at Ajax.

Correct. I don‘t think he has the mileage to do it here.

 

[lex talionis]

Flog me if necessary for the suggestion, but if Shaw is out indefinitely with injury, Malacia is unable to function at anywhere near the required level, Dalot is shit at LB, and Amass isn't physically for the PL, yes of course let's go in for a LB in January but until we do why no go with Martinez at left wingback? It's not optimal, but better to have Martinez out of the danger in the back 3 and he may well be able to string a few passes together as a left wingback until we get sorted at the position.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Has he sub consciously (or consciously) downed tools since ETH left? ETH was his man remember. Been half the player in recent months.

 

[Foolsgold21]

Has he sub consciously (or consciously) downed tools since ETH left? ETH was his man remember. Been half the player in recent months.

He’s been half the player for a while, including when ETH was still skulking around here.

Good on the ball and an okay defender in a deep/mid block.

Anything else and he really struggles defensively

 

[JE-365]

When Ten Hag refused to play him CM because he didn’t have the necessary skillset and running power that says it all

I wouldn’t trust ten hag’s ability to see talent given how poor his signings and his judgement on Amad. I’m not sure if Martinez will be good for CM but I think he can play as DM and would be a better option than Casemiro now, Casemiro just doesn’t have the leg to run/press and nor he has the composure to pass the ball. Here is a video of Martinez played midfield alongside Alvarez at Ajax vs Chelsea. He looked good based on the video.

IMO, Martinez physical attribute is more suitable to play as DM than CB.

• Martinez is not blessed with incredible pace and not good in one v one defending to play 3 CB formation to cover the width, but as DM you relies more in positioning, ability to intercept, and you don’t need the ability to be good in one v one. Martinez’s interception ability is one of his best asset.
• Martinez’s aerial duel ability is only good when winning header centrally in midfield when long ball goes to centre (we have seen how he could bully tall forwards aerially when he stays tight behind the forward’s back or when he’s charging towards the forward’s back), but his aerial duel is weak when defending shoulder to shoulder like from crossing to the box, which means his aerial ability is not suitable for CB but more suitable for midfielder.

 

[Vidooq]

So what happen all those years when we played 4-4-2 with only 2 CB and short fullbacks like Evra?

Would Rio and Vidic allow Evra to mark "Joellington"?

City use Walker to cover other CBs with his speed. But they damn well will not let Walker to solely mark "Joelington". That's what a cooperation is about.

When Barca had Pique and Masch as pair CBs, Pique is in charge of taking care every crosses coming into the box. Not just "staying in his position". Instead of one, we have two big oaf CBs.

The issue with the many goals conceded from crosses/corners is that oposition players usually attack the triangle that has Martinez, and one of the smaller midfielders in it, Eriksen, Bruno or Mainoo. None of them is aggressive or can jump in order to prevent/defend a header even if they track the runners from midfield. That's why you have Isak v Martinez, and Joelington v Martinez, which both resulted in goals, as the mismatch is huge.

Even players that are tall enough are not aggressive, like Zirkzee vs the Bournemouth defender that scored the opening goal, Milenkovic had a free uncontested header when we played Forest.

 

[bgoodall]

He’s getting a lot of criticism and rightfully so BUT I think Maguire was also to blame for that first goal. He goes towards the ball on the cross for some unknown reason and leaves Isak to Martinez despite having the better angle to clear it. Everyone forgets how bad Maguire is after just a few “decent” appearances.

 

[golden_blunder]

I wouldn’t trust ten hag’s ability to see talent given how poor his signings and his judgement on Amad. I’m not sure if Martinez will be good for CM but I think he can play as DM and would be a better option than Casemiro now, Casemiro just doesn’t have the leg to run/press and nor he has the composure to pass the ball. Here is a video of Martinez played midfield alongside Alvarez at Ajax vs Chelsea. He looked good based on the video.

IMO, Martinez physical attribute is more suitable to play as DM than CB.

• Martinez is not blessed with incredible pace and not good in one v one defending to play 3 CB formation to cover the width, but as DM you relies more in positioning, ability to intercept, and you don’t need the ability to be good in one v one. Martinez’s interception ability is one of his best asset.
• Martinez’s aerial duel ability is only good when winning header centrally in midfield when long ball goes to centre (we have seen how he could bully tall forwards aerially when he stays tight behind the forward’s back or when he’s charging towards the forward’s back), but his aerial duel is weak when defending shoulder to shoulder like from crossing to the box, which means his aerial ability is not suitable for CB but more suitable for midfielder.

Ten hag is the one that played a fullback as a 10. If he says he’s not capable I’d tend to believe it considering all the crazy positions he would try.

Secondly, Casemiro doesn’t have the legs to play DM but you think Martinez does? He looks like he’s running through treacle.

I feel like some of you want to continue the theme of shoe horning players who simply aren’t good enough into the team. Since his injury he’s been terrible, not the same player. If I was in charge I’d be looking to shift him out whilst he’s still worth something

 

[ROFLUTION]

I wouldn’t trust ten hag’s ability to see talent given how poor his signings and his judgement on Amad. I’m not sure if Martinez will be good for CM but I think he can play as DM and would be a better option than Casemiro now, Casemiro just doesn’t have the leg to run/press and nor he has the composure to pass the ball. Here is a video of Martinez played midfield alongside Alvarez at Ajax vs Chelsea. He looked good based on the video.

IMO, Martinez physical attribute is more suitable to play as DM than CB.

• Martinez is not blessed with incredible pace and not good in one v one defending to play 3 CB formation to cover the width, but as DM you relies more in positioning, ability to intercept, and you don’t need the ability to be good in one v one. Martinez’s interception ability is one of his best asset.
• Martinez’s aerial duel ability is only good when winning header centrally in midfield when long ball goes to centre (we have seen how he could bully tall forwards aerially when he stays tight behind the forward’s back or when he’s charging towards the forward’s back), but his aerial duel is weak when defending shoulder to shoulder like from crossing to the box, which means his aerial ability is not suitable for CB but more suitable for midfielder.

Decent assessment imo, albeit a bit dreamy that he’ll all of a sudden perform in another position.

It’s still early to say if he’s just slow at adapting his skillset to his new role (seems like most of the team is) , or if he’s just a bad fit for this kind of 3-at-the-back system, but the signs are worrying.

 

[harms]

Ten hag is the one that played a fullback as a 10. If he says he’s not capable I’d tend to believe it considering all the crazy positions he would try.

It's a double-edged sword though, isn't it? The fact that he has played Mazraoui in a position that he's so ill-suited for means that he's hardly the one to trust in terms of finding right roles for players? Anyway, he was always too integral to ten Hag in the build up for him to even consider moving him further forward and sacrificing that.

 

[JE-365]

Ten hag is the one that played a fullback as a 10. If he says he’s not capable I’d tend to believe it considering all the crazy positions he would try.

Secondly, Casemiro doesn’t have the legs to play DM but you think Martinez does? He looks like he’s running through treacle.

I feel like some of you want to continue the theme of shoe horning players who simply aren’t good enough into the team. Since his injury he’s been terrible, not the same player. If I was in charge I’d be looking to shift him out whilst he’s still worth something

Martinez is for sure more fit (has the legs) than this current Casemiro, whether he’s good enough that would be something I’m not sure, but we wouldn’t know until we try. I only have his video vs PL team chelsea in midfield as sample that he played well in midfield before. IMO, he would be a better option than Casemiro so trying him as midfielder over Casemiro wouldn’t hurt. Even if we play Casemiro as LCB or CB, he would still look like a player who has lost his leg because he’s not fit enough to play a high intensity football anymore regardless the position is.

I also made points about what Martinez is good at and what Martinez is not good at. The points indicated that he’s more suitable as DM than CB.

 

[Changeisgood]

One of the clear weaknesses I see in him is his positioning. If you are going to push him up in midfield that lack of awareness will be even more obvious.

He isn't a great first team player over a full season. Can shine in the odd cup game given the right circumstances.

 

[Insanity]

I would like to see him play some games as a LWB. His lack of pace will be a concern but if we can play a pacey player at LCB then he could be a good option there, imo.

 

[Chaky_Best]

I think he can be a very option in LCB, but unfortunately his level dropped since his many injuries last year. I am not sure that we should sell him, try him in left wing back or midfielder.

We should drop him for a bit and let him come back more confident and stronger.

 

[Litch]

Brilliant player and when the team is playing shit, all their weaknesses become exposed. We are back with his height again....he didn't shrink since he came here, was always that small. He was never quick either. Gonna take some time to figure stuff out....need that midfield sorting for starters.

 

[SilentWitness]

If you re-read my post you’ll see my take on what’s going on with him. There’s no plausible reason for a metatarsal fracture to suddenly transform a footballer in the way he would have to reading opinions on his ability, pre and post injury. He was a very long time out and when players are out a very long time it takes them a very long time getting back up to speed.

We had the same nonsense about VVD being finished (after a much more serious injury) and now look at him.

VVD didn't drop anywhere near to the level Martinez has.

 

[NLunited]

Ten hag is the one that played a fullback as a 10. If he says he’s not capable I’d tend to believe it considering all the crazy positions he would try.

Secondly, Casemiro doesn’t have the legs to play DM but you think Martinez does? He looks like he’s running through treacle.

I feel like some of you want to continue the theme of shoe horning players who simply aren’t good enough into the team. Since his injury he’s been terrible, not the same player. If I was in charge I’d be looking to shift him out whilst he’s still worth something

For now it looks like Ten Hag got more out of this group of players than Amorim. I hope that will change, but the signs aren‘t promising.

I‘ll remind you that 10Hag played Weghorst at 10, and helped knock out Barcelona. Mazraoui played the 10 position at Ajax a few times. It‘s not their best position of course, but a tactical tweak.

These are not the sort of things to criticize 10Hag for. Lack of rotation and signing Mount/Antony are.

Martinez at dm is not ideal: he doesn‘t have the running power.

 

[Paul778]

For now?

ETH has done more with these players on a massively uneven playing field.

These are not Amorims players and he has had a game every 3-4 days since he arrived. That means two rest days and one partial training in between solely focused on prep for the next game.

 

[golden_blunder]

For now it looks like Ten Hag got more out of this group of players than Amorim. I hope that will change, but the signs aren‘t promising.

I‘ll remind you that 10Hag played Weghorst at 10, and helped knock out Barcelona. Mazraoui played the 10 position at Ajax a few times. It‘s not their best position of course, but a tactical tweak.

These are not the sort of things to criticize 10Hag for. Lack of rotation and signing Mount/Antony are.

Martinez at dm is not ideal: he doesn‘t have the running power.

No sorry I think you’ve misunderstood my point. I’m saying that ten hag (and this is not a criticism) was someone who would take chances on players moving position. But he quite clearly stated that Martinez could not play midfield due to, I think he said “running power” like you mention. So if he won’t take a chance on him moving position I think that says it all

 

[The Serpent]

Needs to be moved on as soon as possible. It was comical how easy it was for Jolinton to leap frog over him, made Martinez look like a victim, it simply wasn't a fair fight. I said a long time ago Varane was helping this guy look like a hero and covering up all his limitations. The stinker is that we paid 60 million for and we'd be lucky to recoup half of that

 

[harms]

You can’t map a player out on what he was if he’s showing no signs of being that in the here and now, especially after what is a prolonged period of time.

He does though. Look at his recent performances against Manchester City, be it in the league or in the cup final. They are way too sporadical at the moment to see them as a sure sign of him coming back but he can have those performances, so there's still a theoretical chance of a comeback.

I'm very much aware that I'm clutching at straws here and it's more of a hopeful argument than a result of any kind of a rational assessment — in reality he's way more likely to have not just an average game but a proper defensive disasterclass nowadays and he's getting targeted by the opposition just like Maguire was during his lowest and it works for them.

 

[Bobski]

I would like to see him play some games as a LWB. His lack of pace will be a concern but if we can play a pacey player at LCB then he could be a good option there, imo.

Pace and running power. For this system to work the wing backs have to be able to make penetrative runs in transition, make the opposing winger chase them back. Martinez is not that guy. He would show his quality on the ball but I doubt it would be in areas where it could hurt teams.

 

[Fortitude]

He does though. Look at his recent performances against Manchester City, be it in the league or in the cup final. They are way too sporadical at the moment to see them as a sure sign of him coming back but he can have those performances, so there's still a theoretical chance of a comeback.

I'm very much aware that I'm clutching at straws here and it's more of a hopeful argument than a result of any kind of a rational assessment — in reality he's way more likely to have not just an average game but a proper defensive disasterclass nowadays and he's getting targeted by the opposition just like Maguire was during his lowest and it works for them.

If I keep pointing out negatives, it feels like not only have I kicked his legs away but am then proceeding to stomp on the defenceless, which isn’t my intention as I don’t dislike him or have any axe to grind. There’s always a theoretical chance and it comes down to how much credit a player has in the bank for how long you give them to turn it around. We have multiple problems with that, however:

- He’s costing us goals on an almost 1:1 with featuring now;
- He’s being targeted more often and relentlessly, as the exposure level becomes league known;
- He’s really bad 1on1, more so than I think we would have ever known (given it’s bread and butter in a 3 as a R/L CB), which leaves him nowhere to hide;

I realise as I’m writing this that it’s turning into a hatchet job it wasn’t intended to be, so I am going to stop(!) and I’m also rephrasing stuff you’ve acknowledged in your post. We’re in a classic position of weighing up his ball-playing and enabling contributions with the liabilities he represents defensively and I don’t think he’s Koeman/Beckenbauer/Sammer/Pasarrella enough to compensate. At all. I don’t know how he can turn it around: take him out the team and he can’t get sharp… keep him in and we’re back to the 1:1 issue. Outside of playing him in a different position, what is there to do?

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

His first season has already been covered pages back. That player hasn’t been seen since he returned from injury.

It has, sporadically. He's had some excellent games since returning, for both club and country, including Copa America and the games against City.

He's in terrible form right now, along with the rest of the team. Nobody's playing well, which probably suggests something other than them all suddenly turning shit. At his best (like he consistently was in his first season) Martinez has proven he's a fantastic player.

 

[Fortitude]

It has, sporadically. He's had some excellent games since returning, for both club and country, including Copa America and the games against City.

He's in terrible form right now, along with the rest of the team. Nobody's playing well, which probably suggests something other than them all suddenly turning shit. At his best (like he consistently was in his first season) Martinez has proven he's a fantastic player.

It’s hard to gauge off of City. Outside of them?

 

[Roboc7]

I wouldn’t trust ten hag’s ability to see talent given how poor his signings and his judgement on Amad. I’m not sure if Martinez will be good for CM but I think he can play as DM and would be a better option than Casemiro now, Casemiro just doesn’t have the leg to run/press and nor he has the composure to pass the ball. Here is a video of Martinez played midfield alongside Alvarez at Ajax vs Chelsea. He looked good based on the video.

IMO, Martinez physical attribute is more suitable to play as DM than CB.

• Martinez is not blessed with incredible pace and not good in one v one defending to play 3 CB formation to cover the width, but as DM you relies more in positioning, ability to intercept, and you don’t need the ability to be good in one v one. Martinez’s interception ability is one of his best asset.
• Martinez’s aerial duel ability is only good when winning header centrally in midfield when long ball goes to centre (we have seen how he could bully tall forwards aerially when he stays tight behind the forward’s back or when he’s charging towards the forward’s back), but his aerial duel is weak when defending shoulder to shoulder like from crossing to the box, which means his aerial ability is not suitable for CB but more suitable for midfielder.

If he’s not deemed good enough to play at LC, which based on his performances there he clearly isn’t, then he needs to be sold. He’s not going to be good enough in midfield or as a wingback, he’s not much use on the middle of the back three either.

He was very good for a brief period for us but we have to move on from waiting years for players to regain a level they only showed for a short space of time. We probably make a small PSR profit if we sell and it helps find his replacement, that’s probably his best contribution now.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

It’s hard to gauge off of City. Outside of them?

I don't keep a diary, but he's had several good games for us this season. He's lacking consistency though, like the rest of the team. Our players (and as a team) seem to go from one extreme (looking pretty good at times) to the other (looking incomprehensibly shite). This isn't a new thing for us though, and probably suggests some issues with culture and mentality.