[Aint gota Kalou]

I love how people still bring up Shaw like he’s a realistic option.

If Shaw is fit, he’s an LB and we need an LB desperately.

Shaw has played predominantly at LCB in a back 5 for us, rather than at wing back. Even under Ole. Doesn't need as much high intensity running there which may help his persistent injuries.

Shaw shouldn't be relied on but if everyone is fit I'd try Martinez as the central one.

 

[3KDré]

Was just going to say. Thought his passing looked more like the old him tonight. Made some mistakes with positioning but we can’t forget that the system will be a huge change for our centre backs and they’ll need time to adjust in terms of when to drop and when to be aggressive. It will take time.

I will hold my hands up and say I was just not paying enough attention!

I love how people still bring up Shaw like he’s a realistic option.

If Shaw is fit, he’s an LB and we need an LB desperately.

Shaw doesn't have the legs for LWB.

Shaw and Martinez as LCB options is very solid.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Shaw has played predominantly at LCB in a back 5 for us, rather than at wing back. Even under Ole. Doesn't need as much high intensity running there which may help his persistent injuries.

Shaw shouldn't be relied on but if everyone is fit I'd try Martinez as the central one.

Oh I don't debate he can play the role there, but he's fecked. If he's fit, the big chasm at the moment is the LWB role and I think he'll play there.

 

[Aint gota Kalou]

Oh I don't debate he can play the role there, but he's fecked. If he's fit, the big chasm at the moment is the LWB role and I think he'll play there.

Yeah our best 11 ATM probably means Shaw as a wing back, can't see him being fit enough to play there long term though unfortunately

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Another solid performance today. Very good defensively and offensively. We're beginning to see him start attacks with his well-weighted through balls from LCB.

 

[Solius]

Spooky when he went to RCB but did ok overall. Shame to miss him for the Arsenal game.

 

[Ekeke]

Our best actual CB this season so far.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

That yellow card was absolute nonsense. Just a coming together!

 

[Rojofiam]

One of the best CBs in possession for the build-up, but a below average CB when we don't have the ball. Amorim has a headache regarding Martínez IMO. He'll probably need to become a bit more versatile and adapt a back 4 setup as well on top his back 3 system, in order for Martínez to have an important role in our future IMO.

Spooky when he went to RCB but did ok overall. Shame to miss him for the Arsenal game.

Amorim seems to like having wrong-footed players on both sides of the pitch for his build-up. Amad RWB, Dalot LWB, Martínez RCB today. Seems like we will indeed need to have a lot of left-footers in the squad for his ideas to work.

 

[DWelbz19]

Some of the passes and carries in the first half were reminiscent of pre-injuries Licha. Long may it continue.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I didn't realise that yellow card meant he was suspended for Arsenal. That puts a bit of a downer on his overall performance. Hopefully Shaw steps up on Wednesday.

 

[MadDogg]

I suspect Martinez wouldn't have started against Arsenal anyway (I think Amorim would have continued the rotation and had Shaw start), but he almost certainly would have come off the bench so it's unfortunate that he misses that game.

He's definitely improved since his poor start to the season, but he's still not at his best. Hopefully the improvement continues.

 

[TsuWave]

My guy

shame he's gonna miss Arsenal

 

[criticalanalysis]

One of the best CBs in possession for the build-up, but a below average CB when we don't have the ball. Amorim has a headache regarding Martínez IMO. He'll probably need to become a bit more versatile and adapt a back 4 setup as well on top his back 3 system, in order for Martínez to have an important role in our future IMO.

In open space perhaps but in general play to say he's below average is untrue. Generally speaking he's quite good with closing down players, getting in blocks, interceptions, not allowing players to pass easily and even in aerial situations where strikers can't head the ball comfortably. When he's pressing into midfield and i larger areas sure, it's 50/50, which is not good obviously.

 

[SoCross]

I thought we made better progress through the centre when he switched to RCB. He could use his left foot to make up a different angle for the pass. But might also be that the game had opened up a bit.

 

[Alemar]

I somehow get a feeling that Martinez will
be benched for the most part when Yoro is back and Shaw fully fit

 

[flameinthesun]

I somehow get a feeling that Martinez will
be benched for the most part when Yoro is back and Shaw fully fit

I wouldn't be surprised. His best asset is his passing, however as well as he has done physically he still is pretty lightweight for a CB. A fit Shaw for me is a better prospect at LCB than Martinez., though I'm not sure we will ever see a fully fit Shaw for long parts of the season. Shaw is quicker, stronger, taller and has very good passing/dribbling. We definitely need to invest in a top left footed CB though.

 

[Escobar]

I somehow get a feeling that Martinez will
be benched for the most part when Yoro is back and Shaw fully fit

I agree. Not sure what happened but he has not been as good as in the first season

 

[Rossa]

I wouldn't be surprised. His best asset is his passing, however as well as he has done physically he still is pretty lightweight for a CB. A fit Shaw for me is a better prospect at LCB than Martinez., though I'm not sure we will ever see a fully fit Shaw for long parts of the season. Shaw is quicker, stronger, taller and has very good passing/dribbling. We definitely need to invest in a top left footed CB though.

A prime Shaw is definitely much faster over distance, not over short bursts though. His passing is decent, but today he was certainly not up to Martinez' standards. He is an inch taller? Not better in the air, but most likely stronger. What Shaw lacks is intensity, and it has always been an issue with him, even when he was at his very best. Shaw has shown nothing to suggest he's a better centre back - a better lb, but not cb. That's like saying Dalot will be better; he's taller, stronger, defintely faster, and also is good at playing out from the back.

 

[Bobby_2024]

One of the best CBs in possession for the build-up, but a below average CB when we don't have the ball. Amorim has a headache regarding Martínez IMO. He'll probably need to become a bit more versatile and adapt a back 4 setup as well on top his back 3 system, in order for Martínez to have an important role in our future IMO.



Amorim seems to like having wrong-footed players on both sides of the pitch for his build-up. Amad RWB, Dalot LWB, Martínez RCB today. Seems like we will indeed need to have a lot of left-footers in the squad for his ideas to work.

At sporting Ruben got 9 left footed players in his starting XI

 

[flameinthesun]

A prime Shaw is definitely much faster over distance, not over short bursts though. His passing is decent, but today he was certainly not up to Martinez' standards. He is an inch taller? Not better in the air, but most likely stronger. What Shaw lacks is intensity, and it has always been an issue with him, even when he was at his very best. Shaw has shown nothing to suggest he's a better centre back - a better lb, but not cb. That's like saying Dalot will be better; he's taller, stronger, defintely faster, and also is good at playing out from the back.

We've never seen Dalot play CB. We have seen Shaw play CB in a two and a three, each time he hasn't been troubled and performed well. The question is more whether a fit Shaw playing there over a season could be a good consistent CB. His outings there and his defending style is well suited for it. I've always thought we should try him and I think in a 3 Shaw (having to prefix this with a fit shaw!) would have all the attributes to perform well there. In the case of a hypothetical fit Shaw vs a Martinez for LCB, you lose a bit of that outstanding passing that Martinez has, but everything else Shaw can do as well as being physically stronger, taller and better able to transition to a left back both in attack and defence. Either way its likely to not happen due to Shaw's fitness hence I just think we need to invest in a new LCB and upgrade Martinez.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Started badly with some bits of play but excellent after that. Big miss for Arsenal.

 

[Rossa]

We've never seen Dalot play CB. We have seen Shaw play CB in a two and a three, each time he hasn't been troubled and performed well. The question is more whether a fit Shaw playing there over a season could be a good consistent CB. His outings there and his defending style is well suited for it. I've always thought we should try him and I think in a 3 Shaw (having to prefix this with a fit shaw!) would have all the attributes to perform well there. In the case of a hypothetical fit Shaw vs a Martinez for LCB, you lose a bit of that outstanding passing that Martinez has, but everything else Shaw can do as well as being physically stronger, taller and better able to transition to a left back both in attack and defence. Either way its likely to not happen due to Shaw's fitness hence I just think we need to invest in a new LCB and upgrade Martinez.

Shaw has played CB and usually been involved in conceding a goal. His positioning as a CB is suspect. That is to be expected as it's not his natural position. But him being faster and stronger is just like saying Dalot can perform there. Shaw is not a better CB than Martinez; there is simply no evidence supporting that claim.

 

[DWelbz19]

I saw a stat on Twitter yesterday (can’t find now!) that he has average 15 passes into the final third from CB in his past three matches. The very top percentile for that stat is 7 passes a game. He is the very top tier for ball playing defenders.

 

[flameinthesun]

Shaw has played CB and usually been involved in conceding a goal. His positioning as a CB is suspect. That is to be expected as it's not his natural position. But him being faster and stronger is just like saying Dalot can perform there. Shaw is not a better CB than Martinez; there is simply no evidence supporting that claim.

And Martinez has usually been involved in conceding a goal, its part of the business. Again, we haven't seen Dalot play there unless I'm mistaken. We have seen Shaw play there in a 2 and more often a back 3 and he has never looked out of place, in fact the opposite. So in a back 3 at LCB, its not too much of stretch to think a fully fit Shaw is a better option there both due to how he has performed there as well as being faster and stronger, as well as far more comfortable at transitioning to a left back role if needed in that LCB position.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Its a shame he got himself banned for the Arsenal game as our numbers in his position are already limited, the rest might do him good though

 

[Blood Mage]

Quietly the second best player on the pitch yesterday behind Amad. He'll be a miss against Arsenal.

 

[Rossa]

And Martinez has usually been involved in conceding a goal, its part of the business. Again, we haven't seen Dalot play there unless I'm mistaken. We have seen Shaw play there in a 2 and more often a back 3 and he has never looked out of place, in fact the opposite. So in a back 3 at LCB, its not too much of stretch to think a fully fit Shaw is a better option there both due to how he has performed there as well as being faster and stronger, as well as far more comfortable at transitioning to a left back role if needed in that LCB position.

It is far fetched. One was named by Pep as one of the top five centre backs in the world and is a centre back by trade. Shaw had been decent at CB, but also at fault for a a few goals due to poor positioning, which makes sense as it’s not his natural position. Hopefully he can step up, but it’s a big if much more so than it is a guarantee as you almost put it.

Being a great winger does not automatically transition into a great striker, nor does being a fullback into a centre back.

 

[Rossa]

Quietly the second best player on the pitch yesterday behind Amad. He'll be a miss against Arsenal.

Yep. The thing is, it was quietly and without any fuss.

 

[Sarni]

It is far fetched. One was named by Pep as one of the top five centre backs in the world and is a centre back by trade. Shaw had been decent at CB, but also at fault for a a few goals due to poor positioning, which makes sense as it’s not his natural position. Hopefully he can step up, but it’s a big if much more so than it is a guarantee as you almost put it.

Being a great winger does not automatically transition into a great striker, nor does being a fullback into a centre back.

There’s absolutely zero chance whatsoever that Martinez is one of the best five CBs in the world. Was just typical nonsense from Pep.

 

[flameinthesun]

It is far fetched. One was named by Pep as one of the top five centre backs in the world and is a centre back by trade. Shaw had been decent at CB, but also at fault for a a few goals due to poor positioning, which makes sense as it’s not his natural position. Hopefully he can step up, but it’s a big if much more so than it is a guarantee as you almost put it.

Being a great winger does not automatically transition into a great striker, nor does being a fullback into a centre back.

Pep naming players as great is not a sign of anything, he routinely says we have great players and are a great team even at our worst....

We will see what Amorim thinks. Again, Shaw has done well there even against strong opposition and never looked out of place there. I don't think there has been a game where he has played CB and been called out for putting in a poor performance, you've mentioned he has had games where as a CB he has given up poor goals that a Martinez would not have given up so if he has I'm sure you can correct me.

Being a great winger who when put up top scores and doesn't look out of place is probably a sign that they can play do well there.

 

[Rossa]

There’s absolutely zero chance whatsoever that Martinez is one of the best five CBs in the world. Was just typical nonsense from Pep.

In his first season at United where Pep said it? Not out of the question. He was especially lauded for his passing qualities.

 

[Sarni]

In his first season at United where Pep said it? Not out of the question. He was especially lauded for his passing qualities.

Pep said it after the final a few months ago.

Doesn’t really matter though as Martinez has never in his career been anywhere near one of the best five CBs in the world.

 

[Teja]

I wonder if we can play him instead of De Ligt at CCB for a couple of reasons:

• His defensive ability as a wide centerback is a bit sketch. Both on the high press and when defending the wide spaces.
• De Ligt seems completely useless when he steps into the midfield during the build up phase. I honestly don't see the point of him + Casemiro forming a double pivot whereas Martinez would be quite good in that situation.

We'll loose the ball progression from wide center back as a result but I'm sure there's useful things he can do in terms of ball progression as a CCB. Wide centerback berth will go to Mazraoui / Shaw / Yoro who aren't exactly terrible on the ball.

 

[Rossa]

Pep naming players as great is not a sign of anything, he routinely says we have great players and are a great team even at our worst....

We will see what Amorim thinks. Again, Shaw has done well there even against strong opposition and never looked out of place there. I don't think there has been a game where he has played CB and been called out for putting in a poor performance, you've mentioned he has had games where as a CB he has given up poor goals that a Martinez would not have given up so if he has I'm sure you can correct me.

Being a great winger who when put up top scores and doesn't look out of place is probably a sign that they can play do well there.

According to some very quick researh I found Shaw has played 12 times in the PL and 9 in Europe as a CB with Transfermarkt giving him an average rating of 6,2. Not pulling up any trees there and not a huge sample. To say that he is thus better than Martinez is hyperbole and far fetched at the very best.

Also, him being taller does not make him better in the air. Rio was taller than Vidic by two inches or so.

Shaw may be a good solution and rotational player at cb. He’s s not proven to be better than Martinez.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I wonder if we can play him instead of De Ligt at CCB for a couple of reasons:

• His defensive ability as a wide centerback is a bit sketch. Both on the high press and when defending the wide spaces.
• De Ligt seems completely useless when he steps into the midfield during the build up phase. I honestly don't see the point of him + Casemiro forming a double pivot whereas Martinez would be quite good in that situation.

We'll loose the ball progression from wide center back as a result but I'm sure there's useful things he can do in terms of ball progression as a CCB. Wide centerback berth will go to Mazraoui / Shaw / Yoro who aren't exactly terrible on the ball.

Nah, CCB's in Amorim teams are basically recylers and never asked to be progressive with the ball. Would be a complete waste of Martinez even if his wide defending isn't great.

 

[Rossa]

Pep said it after the final a few months ago.

Doesn’t really matter though as Martinez has never in his career been anywhere near one of the best five CBs in the world.

Still a whole lot bettet than a make-shift LB. In his first season, Martinez was brilliant. He’s looking to get back to that form now. Long may it continue. Shaw csn be a very good understudy at lcb, but he had much to prove, imo.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Pep naming players as great is not a sign of anything, he routinely says we have great players and are a great team even at our worst....

We will see what Amorim thinks. Again, Shaw has done well there even against strong opposition and never looked out of place there. I don't think there has been a game where he has played CB and been called out for putting in a poor performance, you've mentioned he has had games where as a CB he has given up poor goals that a Martinez would not have given up so if he has I'm sure you can correct me.

Being a great winger who when put up top scores and doesn't look out of place is probably a sign that they can play do well there.

The sample isn't large so a bit disingenuous to compare 'who was responsible for letting in goals'. IIRC Shaw had 2 or 3 really good high level games at CB when covering Martinez in ETH's first season and then had a poor 1-2 games after. On paper a fit Shaw should be a good player there but it's mostly theory.

You are not sure which Shaw you're going to get (let alone fitness) when it comes to defensive position, closing down of players and whether he's willing to step up and be counted physically or when playing the ball forward.

I've seen so many posts around casually talking about Shaw as if he's some super composed passing demon and shutdown defender when that's really not the case. He's far too often on his heels when receiving the ball and when he doesn't carry the ball forward (i.e maybe 2-3 times a game), his passing choices and opening up of the body leaves him to play hospital balls into midfield. When pressed he's only good when he actually decides to move with the ball, the other times he's too lazy or doesn't commit to actually fronting a player to create space for himself or other players i.e he will mostly go square or go home. As for his channel defending, again it's bit of a myth that he's super consistent there. It's likely he's going to play against Arsenal but people being relieved he's there because he can go against Saka can look at the last time they faced two years when Shaw basically backtracked into his own penalty box because he was scared of engaging. We'll need Dalot there (who locked Saka down this time last year and started his run of improvement/form) to double up.

 

[A-man]

It’s a bit early to say who fits Amorim’s system best, Shaw or Martinez, after only three matches against weak sides.
Martinez has better through balls but Shaw is more mobile and quicker on the ball imo. Defensively I think Shaw is much better 1v1 or when defending big space, it Martinez stronger in the box.

According to some very quick researh I found Shaw has played 12 times in the PL and 9 in Europe as a CB with Transfermarkt giving him an average rating of 6,2. Not pulling up any trees there and not a huge sample. To say that he is thus better than Martinez is hyperbole and far fetched at the very best.

Also, him being taller does not make him better in the air. Rio was taller than Vidic by two inches or so.

Shaw may be a good solution and rotational player at cb. He’s s not proven to be better than Martinez.

I must say I’ve been impressed with shaw when he’s played CB so I really don’t understand where you get this idea from? If you want stats, compare conceded goals.

Shaw has played 14 games in the PL as CB and we have conceded 12 goals. Average of 0.86/game.

Martinez conceded 1.5 goals /90 min his first season, 1.7/90 his second and so far this season 1.2 goals/90.

 

[Rossa]

The sample isn't large so a bit disingenuous to compare 'who was responsible for letting in goals'. IIRC Shaw had 2 or 3 really good high level games at CB when covering Martinez in ETH's first season and then had a poor 1-2 games after. On paper a fit Shaw should be a good player there but it's mostly theory.

You are not sure which Shaw you're going to get (let alone fitness) when it comes to defensive position, closing down of players and whether he's willing to step up and be counted physically or when playing the ball forward.

I've seen so many posts around casually talking about Shaw as if he's some super composed passing demon and shutdown defender when that's really not the case. He's far too often on his heels when receiving the ball and when he doesn't carry the ball forward (i.e maybe 2-3 times a game), his passing choices and opening up of the body leaves him to play hospital balls into midfield. When pressed he's only good when he actually decides to move with the ball, the other times he's too lazy or doesn't commit to actually fronting a player to create space for himself or other players i.e he will mostly go square or go home. As for his channel defending, again it's bit of a myth that he's super consistent there. It's likely he's going to play against Arsenal but people being relieved he's there because he can go against Saka can look at the last time they faced two years when Shaw basically backtracked into his own penalty box because he was scared of engaging. We'll need Dalot there (who locked Saka down this time last year and started his run of improvement/form) to double up.

This is very true.

He isn't a super composed passer. It was quite visible that our passing from the back declined when Shaw replaced Martinez. Martinez is top class when it comes to playing out from the back - both in terms of passing and progressing the ball. Shaw is quite decent at LB, but that is a different position where you only need to focus on what is ahead of you and to one of your sides. Playing centrally is different.

His defending also depends on his "mood", as you say. He can be quite lazy when defending, both in terms of his one on one defending and his positional awareness. Being faster than Martinez matters little if you don't anticipate the runs. How often have we seen Shaw committing yellow cards because he has let people run in behind him? Yes, he can probably outpace Saka on a longer run, which Martinez can't, but in and around the box, his awareness is an issue. I don't see him as being stronger in the air either. Shaw's defending one on one has also always been suspect.