I quoted you a third time for some examples in the Spurs game and you still can't explain exactly where he played poorly. Yet here you are asking for objectivity as if anything else is somehow bias. You've said several times now that he was poor in the thrashings last season like he was the sole or major reason (clue: he wasn't) and that he couldn't displace a City centre back has been for Argentina. Seems like you've got this idea fixed in your head and are ignoring the reality. Don't take my word for it, look at the other posts. Pretty 50/50.
I think both Varane and Martinez have their cons but as a pair, they are more than good enough. It's the players in front of them and the tactics from ETH that is the major issue atm. If you're expecting those two to be some giant defensive wall and to block out all opponent attacks, then you're wishing for the impossible; teams defend and attack as a team now. Yes a prime Rio and Vidic would be better but the underlying issues still exist and they would also be exposed.
I know you quoted me three times - I don't know what you want from me! You say give you an example of a poor moment from the Spurs game...I'm not really talking about "moments" I'm talking more generally about some concerns about his lack of pace and physicality. If you want "moments", how about the OG? Or how about the crazy tackle in the Wolves game? Or when Cunha breezed past him like he wasn't there? But as I say, I'm talking more generally about my concerns that our defence, whilst it's improved, still isn't of the standard required to challenge for a title.
For the record, I have my concerns about Varane too, probably more so than Martinez. He's not as good on the ball as I thought he would be, he's injury prone, he's not that brave, he also isn't that quick....
I also never said at all he was the sole reason for the thrashing. Although he was very poor against Liverpool and City away.
Look...at the end of the day, its a game of opinions. I've said time and time again I like Martinez. If I had to replace one of our CBs, it would be Varane. However, I still stand by the point that we've perhaps built him up on this forum to be a slightly better player than he actually is. He's somewhere between good and very good in my opinion...but he's not world-class.
If we want to continue to play this way with a high line and with pushing Shaw into midfield, I fear teams will run Martinez and Varane into channels and we'll be exposed.
Last we forget, its seems likely we were in for Kim in the Summer. We weren't going to sign him not to play! I think he'd have started on the bench and eventually replaced Varane by the end of the season.
And one last point, since you've demanded a response....that Chief man is going to be along in a minute to lambast me for this but....Maguire and Lindelof are not good enough for Manchester United. And the reason they are not good enough for United is not because they are bad players. Both are one of the first names on the team sheets for their countries. The reason is that United are attempting to play aggressive football and England and Sweden don't. So you say Martinez is being exposed by our style, and I agree with that, absolutely. And again, before Mr Chief comes along to lambast me, Martinez is a much better player than Maguire. But still...we're not going to change the way we want to play now, that much is clear. So Martinez and Varane are going to have to get used to playing in a system which from time to time will make their jobs more difficult. The very best could do it. Van Dijk did it superbly for Liverpool for a number of years, as an example.
Personally, and again, it's just an opinion...I like my CBs to be physically dominant. I like the CF to look at our CBs and think"f£%k, he's bigger than me, he's stronger than me, he's faster than me". I doubt that they think that with Martinez. I think they fancy that if they isolate him, they can beat him. The seasons I used to go to United every single week were 2005-2018 (missed Moyes season) and so I saw the entirety of prime Rio and Vidic. The number of times opposition CFs would just be dominated physically within the first ten minutes by those two and just give up was staggering. First few headers, Vidic would smash them. First few balls over the top, Rio would glide there at half pace and still beat them to the ball. Every move they made, those two were two steps ahead. I don't know what football you've played (genuinely don't, obviously, that shouldn't be read as a dig), but I've played with or against some really good players and there's absolutely nothing more soul destroying than playing against someone who is better than you AND more physically dominant. The moment that it dawns on you in game crushes you, you realise what "levels" means in football. Its the same at any level, physicality is increasingly hugely important.
That's what I want from an elite CB, as well as all of the defensive attributes. OK, it might not be fair to just single out Martinez because you could say Bruno is no Scholes and Rashford is no Rooney and Anthony is no Ronaldo etc...and it's all true...but these are the standards we need to aspire to if we want to challenge for trophies.
6
. Not really bad but some poor judgement and mistimings.
