You call it a slip, I call it getting bullied at the back post. Even fecking lindelof (the softest CB I've seen play for United) would've headed and cleared that ball.
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Do people really feel confident with him in the team at CB going against physical strikers? Genuine question.
Even City and Liverpool signed couple of physical strikers because, you know, its the Prem. He is aggressive in his defending but I don't think he is particularly quick either added to his height. It's a genuine concern for me.
Even City and Liverpool signed couple of physical strikers because, you know, its the Prem. He is aggressive in his defending but I don't think he is particularly quick either added to his height. It's a genuine concern for me.
And teams already had lots of success against us for years from set pieces and balls in the air. So they would likely have done it whether we signed Martinez or not. That was already our problem defensively for several seasons conceding goals from set pieces and having problems with crosses.
Indeed. And that was despite us literally having the tallest squad in the league for the last couple of seasons.
He's played against both of their strikers in the CL and played fine. He is not my biggest worry if we are to play them.
The thing is that at Ajax, Martinez was playing at CB, but was playing for a dominant side who had the lion’s share of possession. It is a completely different ask. It would be a completely different ask playing for City, where he’d spend a far smaller proportion of the time defending aerial balls.
Haven't you seen the game today? We were completely out battled all over the pitch yet you want to put to AMs together with a 5'9 CB from the Dutch league and expect them to "more solid"?! Seriously people, how is that supposed to work?
Let's see how he does next week if he plays. I am not sold on him and certainly think he is not worth the 55-60m we've spent on him.
Did not get bullied by Toney once.
(I think Toney/Martinez had one real duel/fight. In the beginning of the half. Around 10-11 min. Martinez did great and won.)
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Exactly this. He's the one thats actually proven against them. The rest of our defenders arent
He's come from a league where his team dominated the ball. Mascherano was the same at Barca, he was protected by the fact his team controlled possession.
This transfer is potentially the biggest feck up we have ever made, unless we can convert him into a DM, I just think he's going to be made into mincemeat every week.
This transfer is potentially the biggest feck up we have ever made, unless we can convert him into a DM, I just think he's going to be made into mincemeat every week.
With our team as it currently is? Of course not. But that would apply to our other CBs too. They all look vulnerable.
But if Martinez is in a side that functions the way ETH wants this side to ultimately function, then yes he'd be fine. If you put Marinez at CB in this current City side for example, there'd be zero issue. And not coincidentally, Martinez is the CB we have who would best fit into that City side.
That doesn't mean Martinez doesn't have to adapt to the physicality of the PL, but that adaption is more about the pace and intensity of the league than the sheer physical size of his opponents. But more importantly, the team has to improve to the point where it actually suits players like Martinez.
His height in itself isn't an issue. The likes of Puyol, Ayala and Cannavaro were some of the best CB's of an era where there was a lot more of lumping the ball up to the big man up top. The problem is his overall physicality.
Cannavaro, for instance, looked 6'2" and people were always shocked to learn his actual height. He was built like a tank, was powerful and had a huge leap. If we had prime Cannavaro, the likes of Toney and Welbeck would never think they had the beating of the guy in the air.
Martinez genuinely looks like an U15 player- he has a tiny frame, is skinny and is slow. If nobody had seen us play before and they saw Shaw playing at LB and Martinez at CB, they would think there had been a mix up.
He needs to play in a 3 man back line or possibly at LB. I doubt he has the tools to play at DM where physicality is just as important as CB.
Cannavaro, for instance, looked 6'2" and people were always shocked to learn his actual height. He was built like a tank, was powerful and had a huge leap. If we had prime Cannavaro, the likes of Toney and Welbeck would never think they had the beating of the guy in the air.
Martinez genuinely looks like an U15 player- he has a tiny frame, is skinny and is slow. If nobody had seen us play before and they saw Shaw playing at LB and Martinez at CB, they would think there had been a mix up.
He needs to play in a 3 man back line or possibly at LB. I doubt he has the tools to play at DM where physicality is just as important as CB.
My worries go way further than just the defenders tooExactly this. He's the one thats actually proven against them. The rest of our defenders arent
Not scoring goals directly from that tactic doesn't make it an unsuccessful tactic either though.
Frank references the Brighton game as an inspiration for his decision, none of the goals there came directly from that tactic either but he still chose to employ it.
Fair enough that people don't agree with other posters concerns but to think that it's narrative driven etc is bizarre.
I haven't the patience to wind through 90mins but ending in a heap when Mee smashed in wasn't pretty was it.
This is the concern I have. No I don’t feel confident.
Despite there being no glaring mistakes, if I was to look ahead I can foresee problems arising. For example next week a set piece against VVD, Konate, Fabinho and Nunez is going to be a nightmare to defend against. Martinez would be one of the players marking one of them. Most likely one of the CBs. No one can tell me he will get the better of VVD and Konate on a set piece.
Dominated the ball in a league where the majority of the opposition is championship level. He is going to put up really good stats for duels, ball recoveries and all that shite, he is a very active defender to be fair, but every team is going to target him and look to play off the breaking/second ball that putting him in challenges(not just aerial but balls into channels) will create
Maybe it will diminish with time and good performance but I think there might be an issue were his teammates also have that concern about his physical profile and it further disrupts structure. He did a lot of decent things today, he was still fighting up until he was subbed but there are clear physical concerns there, the recovery speed for me is even greater than aerial ability. Playing him in a high line in the Dutch league against wildly mismatched opponents with isolated forwards is a different game than the PL and it will be up to Ten Hag as much as Lisandro to adapt.
Well they had clearly more profitable tactics today. 1 shoot from range, De Gea let the first slip in with a terrible mistake. 2 when United play the ball out of the back be right down Eriksen's neck and try to pinch it as he was playing the deepest DM role. That led to the 2nd goal.
3rd was actually a cross to the back post that was not tracked by Eriksen and the header lost by Dalot, and then that first header back into the middle where Lisandro failed to clear out the ball. So that was a case of targetting the far post/ RB area on a set piece
So yeah if we want to talk about the 4th most dangerous tactic against us today then maybe it wasnt completely unsuccessful, but all their success came from other avenues and other players making mistakes before Lisandro did
Yep, agree with this entirely.
But then it becomes a chicken and the egg scenario. Do we wait until we play like City/Ajax first and then sign players who suit City/Ajax football? Or do you sign the players who suit the City/Ajax style first because you need them in order to get the team playing like City/Ajax?
I think it has to be the latter. You sign players for the team you're trying to become, not the team you currently are. And if in the short term that means teething problems, players' weaknesses being exposed and players like Martinez shipping early criticsm then that's the way it has to be.
Yes and if anyone talked about any of those I wouldn't claim it was a media led narrative either?
It's almost like we can talk about more than one problem at the same time?
I genuinely don't remember him winning many headers... And whoscored has him as winning 0 aerials... So what were these aerial balls he was dealing with?
Not saying they weren't there as I'm generally a bit weary of stats, but yeah.
Not saying they weren't there as I'm generally a bit weary of stats, but yeah.
He definitely did head a couple away early, I don't think that it was a "duel" because he nipped in ahead of someone once and the other was heading a cross away *I think*!
Yeah this. He’s obviously been brought in for his ball playing skills as much as anything for a side that’s supposed to dominate possession. Probably part of the appeal is rhar he can pick occasional passes straight to forwards, bypassing midfield, We really need to start scoring first as this will make it easier. With hindsight seems like a bizarre and stupid decision but I think it’s clear what he was trying to achieve.
More solid with 2 6'4 centre backs and an aggressive CDM that can tackle and pass and head well? yeah sure I think that would be better than what we started with.
Some of those stat sites are a bit odd in how they track headers, uncontested clearances don't seem to count as a header won, though at what point uncontested turns to contested I don't know.
He is going to be an easy target to blame when we concede goals. I'd say keep him at CB, but surely we can't have Varane on the bench anymore.
Maybe move him to midfield to pair with De Jong, and Eriksen at AM. Would make us stronger. We have the worst physical and least tenacious team in the league.
Maybe move him to midfield to pair with De Jong, and Eriksen at AM. Would make us stronger. We have the worst physical and least tenacious team in the league.
This is why I have massive concerns about ETH, because he chose to publicly back De Gea and not look to sign a keeper. He chose to not address the midfield as an absolute priority, and has seemingly been happy to wait for just one player. It doesn’t feel holistic. The signing of Martinez for that fee looks misplaced.
Did he join us?
The ironic thing is that our defence struggled far more with playing out from the back and dealing with the opposition press today than they did with aerial threat. And those former aspects of the game are exactly what we signed Martinez to try and help improve.
Some "aerials" are counted as clearances. Not sure how its determined but I vaguely remember him winning 1
You're right. And also one of the things this manager was going to improve. And something that bringing Eriksen in would likely improve
Of course it works, both directly and indirectly. Directly, it may just be a few goals a season (I.e Martinez loses a header and the opponent either scores, or flicks it on and a team mate scores). Indirectly, it also means a few things. Teams can avoid the press, go longer towards a 5'9" CB being assured they will either retain or win back possession high up the pitch. It means the opposition can put pressure on us with a simple tactic, our other players always have to adjust their positioning to account for a 5'9" CB winning the ball. Also, height isn't just for headers. Having longer legs can make it easier to reach/intercept passes, can make a tackle from a further distance away etc.
Even today, their 3rd goal was a result of Martinez' size, not him slipping. Mee was so much taller than him he could put his hand on his shoulder and push down, preventing him from even being able to jump. Mee wouldn't have been able to do that to a bigger CB. (Edit: on rewatching not sure if Mee puts hands on him, or just leans into him, but conceptually it's the same).
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Defending aerial threat from set pieces has been improved since last season. I think it is partly down to Ronaldo clearing a lot of incoming balls. But you are right with having more trouble passing from the back now.
While United are short in midfield and conceding so many chances/goals just play a back 3.
Park the bus for a few games to stop the slide.
Park the bus for a few games to stop the slide.
Brighton got way more joy from targeting the space behind Maguire last match compare to going after Martinez this match.
He should be played with Varane, I thought he did fine today, unfortunate slip for the goal. Mee was basically falling over himself and managed to be in the right place for the ball coming down, hardly 'bullied' Martinez. He has not shown anything that suggests he is a liability.
I don't want to be critical but nothing about his game screams £50m except he's tidy on the ball.
It's not his fault, but the decision to invest serious money in yet another CB and ignore the midfield and forward line is going to define our season.
It's not his fault, but the decision to invest serious money in yet another CB and ignore the midfield and forward line is going to define our season.
Two very unimpressive performances in a row. Not a good start to his United career. At all.
How do we get more solid in midfield by having one different CB on the pitch than today? And ETH has said, that Martinez isn't a midfielder in his eyes. Just look at McTominay, this is what you get if you play somebody in midfield who isn't comfortable of play happing left and right, in front and in the back of him. Aggressive, passing, heading - if all that would be a given, the player would do fairly well at CB anyways. Mate, Brentford pushed us off the field today, without a single AM. Yet you (and many others) seem adamant that a day where we don't field every available attacker is a lost day. Bruno and Eriksen don't have the strength and the intensity to work in a midfield at the same time. Maybe they will at some point, when teams are really scared of us and play very deep blocks. But that sure isn't the case these days.
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