I personally think he was subbed in part because Ten Hag has put himself in a pickle by clearly stating Maguire is captain, and potentially because Maguire is a big lump. However, that doesn't validate that Martinez was constantly losing battles, I certainly don't remember it like that anyway. People seem to be forgetting that we have looked like this under any sort of pressure for a long time, with players that are 190cm+ all over the shop. I will be watching a Martinez touches video of the game when one pops up anyway, maybe you are right, but I don't remember it like that anyway.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
I personally think he was subbed in part because Ten Hag has put himself in a pickle by clearly stating Maguire is captain, and potentially because Maguire is a big lump. However, that doesn't validate that Martinez was constantly losing battles, I certainly don't remember it like that anyway. People seem to be forgetting that we have looked like this under any sort of pressure for a long time, with players that are 190cm+ all over the shop. I will be watching a Martinez touches video of the game when one pops up anyway, maybe you are right, but I don't remember it like that anyway.
Nil all draw.
Teams that come at us, press us high up the pitch and run their socks off to deny us any time on the ball are our kryptonite. A team that stands off us and tries to beat us with death by a thousand passes wouldn’t cause us too many problems. Although I have zero faith in us scoring against them.
Here comes the king of overreacting
A team with Valencia, Smalling, Blind, Carrick, Herrera, Mata, Fellaini, Rooney?
It's no contest... LVG would have Fellaini on Martinez for a start!
I think this can be salvaged by playing a back 3 or moving him into defensive midfield, neither of which is ideal. But he can't be partnering Maguire. And we will need more height from midfield or up front if we're playing set-piece merchants. Or we go get a keeper who is brave and capable.
In any case, his skill set is not sufficient for a team with our flaws currently.
And that price was a major favour to Ajax.
In any case, his skill set is not sufficient for a team with our flaws currently.
And that price was a major favour to Ajax.
Don’t forget it was end stage Rooney, Carrick and Valencia. None of the rest of them were much cop and similarly prone as the current shower to having shocking individual performances. So I guess it would depend what day we play them on.
Off-topic, but regarding LVG: I always felt that the 5-3 game against Leicester really changed our fortunes for the worse. Some of the attacking play we had during that game was fantastic. A part of me wonders what the last few years could have been like, maybe so different had we carried on and won that game. In my mind, LVG became a lot more reserved and aimed to protect us from a defeat like that, at the expense of some good attacking football.
I have no doubt in my mind that LVG's United team would (excuse the pun) annihilate this side. There would be nothing left of them. This United team is absolute dog shit. We get beaten so often now that it's not even shocking anymore. It's more shocking when we win games!
LVG's version of Valencia and Carrick would start every game for us no doubt. Herrera, Mata too.
I don’t understand how Blind has become a legend for us at some point in this thread.
Blind clearly wasn’t at a competent level to play CB in the premier league. There was a reason why he was sold and there weren’t many in disagreement at the time. There was also many calling for him to play in midfield and when he did he was underwhelming and struggled with the intensity compared to playing at the back. He had some solid games at left back, especially coming forward but ultimately he was never going to make it as a CB on a regular basis.
Blind clearly wasn’t at a competent level to play CB in the premier league. There was a reason why he was sold and there weren’t many in disagreement at the time. There was also many calling for him to play in midfield and when he did he was underwhelming and struggled with the intensity compared to playing at the back. He had some solid games at left back, especially coming forward but ultimately he was never going to make it as a CB on a regular basis.
Putting a hobbit in our CD… Backfired you said? Huh….
Yep that Leicester game was certainly a big turning point. 3-1 up and cruising. We seemed to keep going for the throat and ended up getting sucker punched. LVG played a very attacking and adventurous lineup with a diamond formation of
Blind
Herrera Di Maria
Rooney
Falcao RVP
If I remember correctly. After the capitulation in the second half we never seemed to see that kind of attacking football again from LVG.
This is what always confuses me. At the time it was clear he wasn't physical enough to play as a CB, and it was mentioned often enough here, but overtime history seems to have rewritten itself regarding him.
I'm more thinking of the LVG team that won at Anfield and beat City 4-2... That run where we actually looked like a competent football team!
2015 Valencia was a very good RB to be fair.... Leaps and bounds ahead of any of our current full backs.
And give me 29 year old Wayne Rooney over any of this lot any day, even if he was past his best.
As for Carrick... Well yeah, he's probably still out best midfielder now!
Do you think he became afraid or hesitant? From our previous managers it seems to he him who was most stable, but things fell apart in the end.
You guys need to calm the feck down..He just joined and joins a team that is not working at all.
Give him a fecking chance.
Give him a fecking chance.
I wish I could feel positive about him, but I just can't.
There is a reason why City and Liverpool play with tall CB's. I don't care if Puyol and Cannovaro were world class. This guy isn't them. I trust the best managers in the league over what ETH wants to try and do.
The ridiculous comments here because of a conceded goal. 
For one, this was always going to happen at some point in time. Defending set pieces is always a going to be a weak spot. Doesn't mean he's not good enough. Secondly, this goal wasn't even conceded because of his height. When he saw Toney was going to head that ball from the corner, he decided to move backwards to cover the goalline at the far post. Because he made that choice, he was then caught out of position when the ball went square rather than towards the goal.
Sure you can say he might have made the wrong choice defending the goalline there. I think he was simply in a bad spot in which he needed to make a choice and in the end it didn't turn out well. Nevertheless these things happen all the time at many clubs and in this goal the situation where Toney is matched with Eriksen and then gets an easy header is the bigger problem at this conceded goal.
Other goals Martinez wasn't to blame at all. Also the last one it was Maguire that was supposed to be marking Toney, but he let him walk away from him and then Martinez had to try to close down that space which obvoiusly was impossible at that point. Maguire should have been staying with Toney there, so Martinez could have covered the area in the middle and taken out the cross.
People that are now saying that he won't be playing as a CB anymore are fooling themselves. EtH was very well aware that United would concede some goals from set pieces and also probably a few goals becasue of Martinez' height. Martinez wasn't signed to be a defender that never concededes a goal from set pieces. That would of course be nice, but EtH knows full well that will never happen. Martinez is suppose to be there to help United become a more comfortable side in possesion and help United defend away from the own box. He has shown at Ajax that he can do that, but obviously the team is not in the right shape.
People calling fro Martinez als DM are just being stubborn. EtH has been clear about that. Maybe there's an argument to say that United isn't ready for Martinez as CB yet. However, the quesiton is if EtH can build the team towards where he wants to go without Martinez at CB. How is he suppose to build the team he wants without the CB that he can eventually take him to what he's aiming for. I think it's a difficult one.
I'm pretty sure Martinez will play CB again next week. The question is if it will be with Maguire of Varane next to him.
For one, this was always going to happen at some point in time. Defending set pieces is always a going to be a weak spot. Doesn't mean he's not good enough. Secondly, this goal wasn't even conceded because of his height. When he saw Toney was going to head that ball from the corner, he decided to move backwards to cover the goalline at the far post. Because he made that choice, he was then caught out of position when the ball went square rather than towards the goal.
Sure you can say he might have made the wrong choice defending the goalline there. I think he was simply in a bad spot in which he needed to make a choice and in the end it didn't turn out well. Nevertheless these things happen all the time at many clubs and in this goal the situation where Toney is matched with Eriksen and then gets an easy header is the bigger problem at this conceded goal.
Other goals Martinez wasn't to blame at all. Also the last one it was Maguire that was supposed to be marking Toney, but he let him walk away from him and then Martinez had to try to close down that space which obvoiusly was impossible at that point. Maguire should have been staying with Toney there, so Martinez could have covered the area in the middle and taken out the cross.
People that are now saying that he won't be playing as a CB anymore are fooling themselves. EtH was very well aware that United would concede some goals from set pieces and also probably a few goals becasue of Martinez' height. Martinez wasn't signed to be a defender that never concededes a goal from set pieces. That would of course be nice, but EtH knows full well that will never happen. Martinez is suppose to be there to help United become a more comfortable side in possesion and help United defend away from the own box. He has shown at Ajax that he can do that, but obviously the team is not in the right shape.
People calling fro Martinez als DM are just being stubborn. EtH has been clear about that. Maybe there's an argument to say that United isn't ready for Martinez as CB yet. However, the quesiton is if EtH can build the team towards where he wants to go without Martinez at CB. How is he suppose to build the team he wants without the CB that he can eventually take him to what he's aiming for. I think it's a difficult one.
I'm pretty sure Martinez will play CB again next week. The question is if it will be with Maguire of Varane next to him.
Ole best the top sides even more regularly and convincingly. The squad is better since then. Hopefully when ETH gets his head around the premiership we kick on
Copy Pep and Klopp? That's your plan?
Fully onboard with giving him a chance but I don't think CB in Prem is for him, especially not when paired with Maguire. Let's wait and watch. We will have a clearer picture in the coming weeks. This is just his 2nd match in a new league in a new country afterall.
To be honest it was a very too heavy lineup that he played against Leicester. You could never play that every game. We had RVP and falcao up front with Rooney, Di Maria and Herrera behind. Blind was badly exposed at CDM.
I’ve never been a fan of the 4212 diamond in the EPL. Never seen anyone use it successfully on a regular basis.
He was horrendous today and we would have probably lost 7-0 if he stayed on the pitch. The way Mee just shrugged him off for the goal is really quite eye opening as to what we should expect going forward. Any team that plays us will just target him on set pieces and any strong striker will have a field day against him. He seems fairly comfortable on the ball but it’s not really important when he can’t get the basics right on defense. He might turn out OK in a back three but we are never going to go there anyway.
Fellaini would score on the little CB, there’s no question about that, he almost never failed when given the chance.
Agreed, best at LB, CB was purely an emergency thing as I recall.
Absolutely. Why would we not attempt to copy the best two teams in the league?
Early days for him, even Vidic needed time to settle. But we can't deny that his height is going to be an issue. The premier league is full of strong physical strikers who'll easily own him in the air.
His passing is good and he can defend, I think he could be really useful in midfield. It's an experiment worth making.
In hindsight I don't know what we were thinking. But that's what happens when there's zero scouting at the club and we end up allowing managers to go with familiarity.
His passing is good and he can defend, I think he could be really useful in midfield. It's an experiment worth making.
In hindsight I don't know what we were thinking. But that's what happens when there's zero scouting at the club and we end up allowing managers to go with familiarity.
He actually had a good run of games at CB in a partnership with Smalling. It did deceive for a while to be something that would be workable but I remember Smalling excelling during that time and it being balanced in that blind was able to bring the ball out. However there was always the weakness their at CB that eventually with time got more n more exposed.
Because we don't have Pep and Klopp.
Exactly i just don't get what in the blue hell ETH was thinking with that signing. That was terrible decision and big, big money spend.
If we had a front 3 that pressed hard and a midfield that pressed hard and had control he would thrive no?
Like i mentioned earlier he would thrive with a high pressing team infront of him and has great long passes but people dont give him the cchance to prove himself even if the team is shit. im appaled.
I think there’s a bit of a witch-hunt going on here and it’s being led by the English media being obsessed with his height. He had no real preseason and is new to the league. He definitely should have been stronger for the third goal but if you didn’t watch the game you’d be forgiven for thinking that he had been rag dolled all game by Toney judging by all the talk which I didn’t see.
The ridiculous comments here because of a conceded goal.
For one, this was always going to happen at some point in time. Defending set pieces is always a going to be a weak spot. Doesn't mean he's not good enough. Secondly, this goal wasn't even conceded because of his height. When he saw Toney was going to head that ball from the corner, he decided to move backwards to cover the goalline at the far post. Because he made that choice, he was then caught out of position when the ball went square rather than towards the goal.
Sure you can say he might have made the wrong choice defending the goalline there. I think he was simply in a bad spot in which he needed to make a choice and in the end it didn't turn out well. Nevertheless these things happen all the time at many clubs and in this goal the situation where Toney is matched with Eriksen and then gets an easy header is the bigger problem at this conceded goal.
Other goals Martinez wasn't to blame at all. Also the last one it was Maguire that was supposed to be marking Toney, but he let him walk away from him and then Martinez had to try to close down that space which obvoiusly was impossible at that point. Maguire should have been staying with Toney there, so Martinez could have covered the area in the middle and taken out the cross.
People that are now saying that he won't be playing as a CB anymore are fooling themselves. EtH was very well aware that United would concede some goals from set pieces and also probably a few goals becasue of Martinez' height. Martinez wasn't signed to be a defender that never concededes a goal from set pieces. That would of course be nice, but EtH knows full well that will never happen. Martinez is suppose to be there to help United become a more comfortable side in possesion and help United defend away from the own box. He has shown at Ajax that he can do that, but obviously the team is not in the right shape.
People calling fro Martinez als DM are just being stubborn. EtH has been clear about that. Maybe there's an argument to say that United isn't ready for Martinez as CB yet. However, the quesiton is if EtH can build the team towards where he wants to go without Martinez at CB. How is he suppose to build the team he wants without the CB that he can eventually take him to what he's aiming for. I think it's a difficult one.
I'm pretty sure Martinez will play CB again next week. The question is if it will be with Maguire of Varane next to him.
Personally I think Maguire and Varane are both better players than him. Martinez may be a good player but he's just not needed for us, especially at £50m. He may be good on the ball but Lindelof for example is excellent on the ball.
Anyone with eyes could see what we needed was a DM to protect the defence and midfield, a fast left footed RW to run at defenders and stretch play since all our wide forwards are right footed and not good at fast dribbling, a ball playing CM (Eriksen/Rabiot fit the bill), a striker since Ronaldo can't run. Hell even a RB would've been more of a priority, instead ETH decided to sign another CB for £50m to add to the four international starting CBs we already have.
I don't have anything against the lad, but again it just shows how poorly run the club is, too much pressure on the manager to do everything, and it leads to poor choices in recruitment.
Yeah needs moving forward in games against big strikers and would partner Bailly with Varane (if they are fit)
His real mistake today was to pass to DDG from goal kick (it is probably also instructed). Now, he witnessed first half how panic DDG is with ball.
Bunch of over reactions. The entire team is dog shit and focus is on one guy? Yeh because the stupid collection of meat next to him is so good being 6 ft+
Good post. Its a shame idiots on TV couldn't see the same.
Blind was one of the most creative player in that boring unimaginative team at that time, and that team is more competent defensively than the mess the last couple season (not entirely due to Blind). The player in LCB the last couple seasons doesn't look better than Blind. So understandably, Blind got selective fond memory treatment.
It's kinda the same reason for the good will for Martial and the relentless attack on Mourinho for not develop Martial. In reality, Martial is very flawed to begin with, and in the end he never develop any different whoever the manager.
People tends to forget the ugly one like that vs West Brom , 0-3 against Tottenham, especially West Ham away game where Blind got exposed for every flaw he has: too slow to catch/last ditch challenge if attacker peel away, physical/height flaw... At the end of that season, teams seem to be able to work out a strategy to overload wherever Blind station, it either unsettled our defense or simply got an attacker free shot at our goal with good service.
There is enough physical/aerial struggle, lack of speed in the below highlight to expose the selective fond memory on Blindl
I spent all summer questioning whether Martinez was going to be able to be able to consistently deal with the physicality of the league to the standards we need.
I was told that
1. We'd have so much possession that teams wouldn't have a chance to expose his lack of height and physicality
2. We'd play such a high line that the opposition's plan of long balls and crosses would be ineffective
3. He had decent aerial stats domestically at Ajax last season therefore he won't actually struggle in this league despite his stature.
It took 1 and a half games for the manager to sub him because we needed to bring on a more physical and aerially dominant centre back. You cannot avoid physical duels in this league. You are going to be targeted with long balls, diagonals, long throws, wide set pieces, corners, open plays crosses and you're going to have to be able to consistently out-compete 6ft+ strong defenders, midfielders and strikers.
The issue is not a new player having a rough start to his time here. It's that he probably doesn't have the physical qualities needed to play his position to the level we need. He can improve his performances, but he can never improve his fundamental physical attributes. And the attributes he lacks are a pre-requisite for being an elite centre back in my opinion. In the same way I don't think Maguire can ever be the centre back we need because his lack of mobility and pace is a constant liability.
This isn't a knee-jerk reaction based on 1 or 2 games, a lot of people voiced concerns over his suitability months ago and anyone who voiced concerns were shouted down and ridiculed.
I think it is still too early to write him off, but EtH will need to adapt the team better for physicality. If we play him we definitely need a more physical and taller midfield. Or we play him in left back or DM.
It was naive to play the midfield we did today - Eriksen is no DM or tackler, Fred is also easily nudged off. Well our entire team crumbled after the first goal - that's another big issue to address.
Hope that the positive thing is that we now go out to get at least 2 new midfielders who can compete physically and technically, just for us to minimally match the average PL team. Hell, it is criminal that nothing's been done since Pogba and Matic left to an already gaping central midfield hole before that. We will slump from one disaster to the next without a midfield
It was naive to play the midfield we did today - Eriksen is no DM or tackler, Fred is also easily nudged off. Well our entire team crumbled after the first goal - that's another big issue to address.
Hope that the positive thing is that we now go out to get at least 2 new midfielders who can compete physically and technically, just for us to minimally match the average PL team. Hell, it is criminal that nothing's been done since Pogba and Matic left to an already gaping central midfield hole before that. We will slump from one disaster to the next without a midfield
I'm really surprised people are already blaming physicality for that goal. Besides what you said, it looked like they both misjudged the ball and it glanced off a falling Mee's head into the net. You'd think he got swatted aside in a 50/50 challenge or something.The ridiculous comments here because of a conceded goal.
For one, this was always going to happen at some point in time. Defending set pieces is always a going to be a weak spot. Doesn't mean he's not good enough. Secondly, this goal wasn't even conceded because of his height. When he saw Toney was going to head that ball from the corner, he decided to move backwards to cover the goalline at the far post. Because he made that choice, he was then caught out of position when the ball went square rather than towards the goal.
Sure you can say he might have made the wrong choice defending the goalline there. I think he was simply in a bad spot in which he needed to make a choice and in the end it didn't turn out well. Nevertheless these things happen all the time at many clubs and in this goal the situation where Toney is matched with Eriksen and then gets an easy header is the bigger problem at this conceded goal.
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