No Ronaldo or Messi in the CL semis for the first time since '05. Their era has ended. Please close all threads relating to them. It's Neymar' s perch now. Or Ramos. Or something.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
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The amount of free pass this guy gets is quite staggering. For all his talent, he lacks leadership when things gets tough.
I never seen a forward getting blamed for the team's defense leaking goals galore.
I would probably expect them to react as grown men, who are being paid tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds a week, who have won every single trophy possible over their careers, who according to you are top 5 in the world in terms of quality and not need to be motivated by another player, especially when they're getting slammed and embarrassed as well.
If only this was true. The weird and childish arguments from their 'fans' will continue for a long while still I'm sure.
I feel genuinely bad for some of these people. I can watch Ronaldo and Messi and genuinely appreciate the excellence of both players when they put in great performances. Would be sad to be watching one of them constantly looking for a reason to blame or criticise.
I understand where you're coming from but here's the thing: The moment you've assembled a great squad again and have it coached by a manager that turns it into a cohesive unit with a certain play style, you want Messi back. With his quality he would still walk into every team in the world. Imagine him in that Bayern side yesterday. The same goes for Cristiano or Neymar to a certain degree.
There's this thing that people like to blame it on the best player of the team and if you think that through, that just doesn't make sense. Actually I think the issues with both Juve and Barca are far more complicated and have almost nothing to do with the players but if you blame someone it makes more sense to do it with one of the multi million flops like Griezmann and Dembele and not the player who was Barca's insurance in the last few years, including this season.
I find it utterly nonsensical.
Both are great players. How can you not appreciate both?
That's not how it works though. The captain and leader of the team means something. Doesn't matter how good a player you are if you see your best player, star and captain completely lost and not interested your motivation will drop. That's just how team mental spirit work.
More complicated and have nothing to do with players but you're quick to suggest the fault is with other players?
Have to work out that contradiction
Only reason I can’t wait for the Messi and Ronaldo era to end is so the countless debates and down playing of greatness can feck off
More complicated and have nothing to do with players but you're quick to suggest the fault is with other players?
Have to work out that contradiction
Well, I said 'if you want to blame a player, then...'
Personally,I wouldn't blame it on Griezmann, Dembele, Suarez or other players not performing but earning a fortune at all. But blaming the one earning a fortune who does perform is quite ironic, isn't it? However, the other players are still quality. They are maybe just at the wromg place currently.
I think the issues are rooted deeper. Individually, Barca isn't that much worse than Bayern that it justifies a defeat by 6 goals. Something's just seriously arong with the club. There are good games like Napoli and then absolutely atrocious ones, too. Their bottom level is insanely low currently.
Only reason I can’t wait for the Messi and Ronaldo era to end is so the countless debates and down playing of greatness can feck off
Yeah... I mean it's obvious that
HAH! No drama for you, bitch!
He created good chances against Liverpool last year despite the heavy defeat. People see what they want to see and blame who they've been dying to blame. It's as silly as clamouring to blame to Ronaldo for the 1-0 loss away at Lyon that saw Juve dumped out of the competition. People want to pretend these are individuals playing a team sport winning and losing matches on their own when it's not. As for the actual individual displays, they end to get dragged down with a faulty unit, as we've seen with Pogba and others at United, and rise when given the right platform as we've seen with the likes of Martial at United. It's as if we've convinced ourselves that theirs a subset within the sport where individuals actually compete against each other and not teams. Messi is supposed to score, create chances, also drop deep and playmake, also roar like a tiger and give everyone believe. Maybe if he was injured prancing around the touchline expressing emotions, people would like it more I suppose.
Thing with Bayern is, they dont really have a standout superstar. Sure Lewandowski is very good, but it's more a united than 1 or 2 people carrying it. Has always been like that a bit. I've not really followed them since my favorite bald countryman left.At this point I don't care who as long as it's not a Bayern player
He's still the world's best player but he seems to have grown apathetic to his club's downward spiral at this point and just looks fed up. I think he'd happily leave if given the chance, but who the hell would take on his wages at the age of 33 even if he is Messi?
Yeah Robben was great and a player that made it difficult to hate Bayern which is probably the biggest compliment I can give
however, he was arguably the third best player behind Messi and Cristiano during his best years so that still equals 'superstar' for me. Lewandowski is a tier below that but still star material. But you're right, Bayern teams are usually very cohesive in terms of individual quality. Kimmich, Davies, Alaba, Thiago, Lewandowski, Gnabry, Müller etc. are all on a similar level. No standout player but the quality is so high that you'd need a Messi/neymar/Cristiano/Mbappe calibre to stand out.This is one of my biggest frustrations with a large part of football followers. Their opinions quickly become worthless because they seemingly don't realize or acknowledge that Football is a team sport, that players are human and that sometimes when the team is getting battered even the best players can be disheartened. Ronaldo and Messi have been useless in more than one batterings of Real Madrid and Barcelona but they have also on occasions turned things around. One thing to keep in mind about Barcelona is that they have been poor for a long time and Messi knows that's why the pre-Napoli comments occured, doubts already existed in their minds and the first minutes of the last game probably killed the spirit of that team because they were getting properly trounced.
Yeah Robben was great and a player that made it difficult to hate Bayern which is probably the biggest compliment I can give
Lewandowski has been the best in the world this season.
I think it was Lineker who pointed out that in the 86 world Cup Maradona played in Burruchaga for the winning goal... messi played in higuain who fluffed it... how does that make messi a worse player... as you say that's where teamates come in
As captain Messi is meant to motivate his team, build their confidence and at least influence the mentality of those around him. That is the his job literally.
Aye, I’m just glad to have witnessed his career (& that of Ronaldo’s) first hand. Not sure when they’ll come around again, let alone 2 pushing each other neck and neck for over a decade.
Disagree, but that wasn't my argument either. I compared him to Robben who to me was definitely a superior player to Lewandowski. Robben was for me the best player behind Messi and CR7 in his prime, the equivalent of Neymar/Mbappe now so to say.
It must really hurt your arse that Madrid won three on the trot.
I have said this multiple times, he is one of the biggest reasons for Barcelona's demise. No runs off the ball, no pressing, constantly walking and putting pressure on those behind him. I said no top team will take him and people told me I was crazy. The craziest thing about last night was that Bayern were using positional play, something Barcelona made famous and cannot even execute now because of one Lionel Messi. Lewandowski ran and pressed and chased down balls and was still in position to score goals.
The excuses for Messi's laziness are finally running out. His monster wages also hinder Barcelona's recruitment (which is awful, but that's another story in itself). Johan Cruijff said Barcelona should have sold Messi because he could hinder the club in future and people scoffed at him. As usual, he was right.
The excuses for Messi's laziness are finally running out. His monster wages also hinder Barcelona's recruitment (which is awful, but that's another story in itself). Johan Cruijff said Barcelona should have sold Messi because he could hinder the club in future and people scoffed at him. As usual, he was right.
am I forgetting a part of that game or are you mixing it up with one of the copas, Higuain's awful miss in the '14 WC final was from a Kramer header back to his keeper that went straight to him
It has been a tradition now, Barcelona embarasses themselves, Messi doesn't have a good match, and we have Cristiano fans coming on the thread with sneaky remarks about how Cristiano is better and Barca fans get triggered.
Its great because today Barca are not "Mes Que Un Club".... they are "menos que una mierda" and its funny seeing their fans try and defend them. Especially some of those who have slagged United off even this season. Can't remember the last time United got humiliated in a single Champions league game (or any game) 8-2.
He always played that way, though.
Do you have a source for the Cruyff claim? Never heard of that one. Surprised it didn't receive more attention.
Under Pep Guardiola he pressed a lot more. He even tracked back attackers in his own half on some occasions. This behaviour started consistently during the end of Pep Guardiola's tenure and Tito Vilanova's era. The first half of Luis Enrique's Tenure in the 14/15 season, he was lazy once again but switched up during the second half and Barcelona won the treble.
He is a tactical headache because he occupies the centre and that means the manager has to play a 442 to accommodate him which leaves Barcelona susceptible to being dominated in the midfield because of the numerical superiority of the opposition. You simply cannot play "Cruijffian Football" with him in the side. The excuses run out when you see how hard Lewandowski runs, Aguero runs, Mane and Salah both run, there is no room for passengers at the highest level anymore. He also offers no off the ball movement and never draws opposition away with his movement to open up the field for other players.
At first it was Tata Martino that was the problem, the Luis Enrique, then Valverde, now Setien. There is always one constant in all this.
He said this around 2014 when Neyamr was joining and said Barcelona should consider selling Messi now that they have Neymar.
Of course the current Ballon'dor holder is the reason for their demise. It's not at all related to the overall club management. I agree, his lack of pressing is an issue, but they have so many issues. A crap manager. A crap director. Suarez has been past his best for some years now. Messi is past his prime despite being superb last season. Griezmann cost fortune in transfers and wages and has been a flopp. Coutinho and Dembele cost a fortune and have been flops. Vidal was past his prime when he came to Barca. Busquets has been past it for some time now. Pique is well past his best as well. Their are so many factors apart from Messi, but Messi being past his prime and his huge wages of coure are a part of it as well.
I don't think he's got the legs to make multiple high-burst accelerative actions per half anymore., and if you're not going to make those key bursting actions as and when they are needed in that position, you're going to be a real liability as you can't be relied upon.
At least as a #10 he can make the ball do the running and concern yourself with energy/game management a lot more whilst still being extremely effective and threatening, but he'd have to do a lot more perpetual jogging and work to find space than he currently does, so it's a different kind of stamina and utilisation of his tank. Riquelme rarely broke into anything more than a modest jog, but he had the perpetual jogging thing down to a tee.
I think whatever does happen with Messi, he needs to be prepared to work in a different way in acceptance he's not the same type of player he used to be. He's got the tools and skills to rework his game, but his stamina and energy management really needs addressing - he can't be ambling around like that with the responsibility he has in the team as by far their best player (d'uh).
Abject performance by him. The only chance he created was from a cross that came from a corner. Everything else was neither here nor there. He also could've scored a wonder goal but from the 20th minute he found it hard to have any sort of sustained influence on the match.
His work rate is a joke at this point. He's never tracked back much but he used to at least join in on the pressing now he pretty much just stands around. What's even more disappointing is that he takes an age to get back onside so the quick pass to him is never an option.
I've often found it strange when people thought he could play in midfield given how many balls he gives away in that area if under pressure. He always wants to dribble his way out of trouble which is asking for trouble. He was lucky he got some soft fouls in those moments last night, but then didn't learn his lesson and eventually did get robbed in midfield. Sure, in space he can play a pretty pass but that's not all there is to being a midfielder.
His game falls apart when Barca aren't in control of possession. Not much of a threat on the break and never shows the urgency to move into a position to receive the ball when they win it back. Doesnt run the channels either when playing in a front 2 like last night.
Him being the best player in the world is a thing of the past. His big game performances just don't cut it. He can still tear into Eibar or Mallocra but against Madrid, Bayern and the likes don't expect too much. I mean even after a good home leg performance vs Pool last season he wasn't looking like scoring at Anfield.
His work rate is a joke at this point. He's never tracked back much but he used to at least join in on the pressing now he pretty much just stands around. What's even more disappointing is that he takes an age to get back onside so the quick pass to him is never an option.
I've often found it strange when people thought he could play in midfield given how many balls he gives away in that area if under pressure. He always wants to dribble his way out of trouble which is asking for trouble. He was lucky he got some soft fouls in those moments last night, but then didn't learn his lesson and eventually did get robbed in midfield. Sure, in space he can play a pretty pass but that's not all there is to being a midfielder.
His game falls apart when Barca aren't in control of possession. Not much of a threat on the break and never shows the urgency to move into a position to receive the ball when they win it back. Doesnt run the channels either when playing in a front 2 like last night.
Him being the best player in the world is a thing of the past. His big game performances just don't cut it. He can still tear into Eibar or Mallocra but against Madrid, Bayern and the likes don't expect too much. I mean even after a good home leg performance vs Pool last season he wasn't looking like scoring at Anfield.
I never said he was the sole reason. He is one of the main reasons. The biggest problem is the Barcelona board as they should never have let a player like Messi accumulate so much power both on and off the field. This is the normal for Barcelona though. They have always been like this since I have followed them but that is a story for another time.
Robben was quite easy to hate though wasnt he? Bit of a diving cnut. And I say that as possibly his biggest fan.Yeah Robben was great and a player that made it difficult to hate Bayern which is probably the biggest compliment I can give
Had a terrible game last night and his workrate is a big problem now.
I really don't think it means much at all. Someone who is 'captain' material will continue to shout and direct regardless of whether they're given this arbitrary title and someone who isn't won't necessarily grow into a leadership position.
Constantly focusing on 1 player is also not how team sports work, as much as people are desperate for them to be.
Messi was crap yesterday and has been crap at other points of his career. He will have other crap performances. He shoulders responsability for their performance, just like he other players, the manager and the board need to as well. It was a shit show from top to bottom.
So it's agreed by the cafe then, he's not the best player in the world any more, but one of the worst.
Got it.
Got it.
You contradicted yourself in the space of 3 sentences.
Think people are overstating his 'demise' a little, he was the top scorer of the CL last season, scoring 6 goals in 6 games in the KO rounds. However, I'd be a bit annoyed as a Barca fan to see him conserving energy in a one off KO game, he definitely could do more off the ball.
The sad thing is... he is not and has not been for a very long time.
You lot are living in la la land.
Ronaldo has overtaken him long ago. Would take a major win for Argentina for the conversation to really be debatable again if we are being completely honest.
Its ALWAYS the same. Its never him its always someone else. Its laughable the lengths people go too.