Lionel Messi

Pep had dropped Agüero and only put him back in when he began to do the work off the ball. I doubt that he’d decline a chance to get Messi for free, but he’ll still cost something around 200m and there’s no way he’ll agree to pay that much for a player.
I doubt they wouldn’t make that money back in shirt sales and also other sponsorship deals. He’s the best there ever was. He would also have to be protected and rotated
 
Undoubtedly one of the most gifted players of all time.

However, he lacks that absolute elite perseverance and mental fortitude the GOATs across all sports possess. That’s why Ronaldo will always win the debate for me, less talent (but still unbelievably talented) but also combined with unbelievable grit and athleticism. Truly top tier athlete in every sense of the word, mental to physical.
 
Hypothetical question - how many of us will take him at United for couple of years ? Lets say reasonable fees and his actual wages?
 
Messi needs to leave Barcelona, the club is in ruins.

He certainly shouldnt be spending the final 3 years of his career in a team going through a rebuild job, he needs a ready built team.

Yep. And I don't say this to belittle him in any way. He's like a ferrari that simply doesn't work on a bumpy road.
 
I think his salary is astronomical, but it's deserved. There's still a lot of money handed out to the rest of the team, so I think saying his salary is the reason why he doesn't have the best team around him is a cop out for Barcelona's board. They've spent ridiculous sums and gotten even more ridiculous players to join a club that hilariously tried to still pass itself as the 'best club in the world' from the words of Vidal. There is a way to be smarter than they've been and put a competitive team around Messi, but it's fair to say Barcelona have indeed wasted some of his best years with their decisions.
 
A "few goals" don't tend to happen on their own. He didn't get any credit for the foe the goal and assist he got against France in the WC. It doesn't matter. It's a team sport. Putting a penalty away to make you lot happy is irrelevant.
So he should get credit for losing 2-8?
Look, Messi has been a great player for Barca this season. But the team is build around him and he is big part of it, you can’t just let him take all the credits when the team is winning, and at the same time free from any blame when his team is losing big while he is strolling around and contributes nothing. It doesn’t work that way. If he is genuinely GOAT, should at least lead by example and contribute back a goal or 2, even when his team is hopeless to defend any goals.
 
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So he should get credit for losing 2-8?
Look, Messi has been a great player for Barca this season. But the team is build around him and he is big part of it, you can’t just let him take all the credits when the team is winning, and at the same time free from any blame when his team is losing big while he is strolling around and contributes nothing. It doesn’t work that way. If he is genuinely GOAT, should at least lead by example and contribute back a goal or 2, even when his team is hopeless to defend any goals.
Who is giving him credit? It's a collective collapse by Barcelona and not just one on the pitch.

He doesn't need to score a goal in torrential batterings to prove he's the "GOAT". Scoring or impacting two goals against France in that hapless Argentina display didn't make him the greatest. And not winning a WC final won't keep him from being that. He's clearly the best footballer I've ever seen. But yes, Barcelona have major issues , that much is clear. To pin point on the player whose carried them for years, is bizarre. And we know who the ones pushing that motion in this thread are and what their agenda is anyway.
 
No. But if he could contribute a few goals, maybe would make the scoreline look a little less humuliating though. Afterall he is getting paid 1.3m per week, which is more than half of Bayern team added together. While the whole Barca team is basically build around him, letting him just strolling around the pitch, he can't be always free from any blame.

Oh he wasn’t good today, but he didn’t concede 8 times. A loss is a loss, two goals in most matches should be enough from the attack.
 
Its always something though isn't it?

"Oh but his teammates missed"

"Oh but he did good before the 5 goals"

"Oh but the team"

"Oh its Higuain...Also its Suarez....Wait no its Aguero"

And what’s Ronaldo’s excuse in CL this year and last?
 
I like how Messi being instrumental in Barcelona's choices of players/coaching staff over the last few years is completely overlooked and that he's the one being hard done by...

"you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian"
 
He did his job. He literally scored all over Juve's goals.

And Messi set up on of their goals and the attack managed two goals which is enough against most teams to at least force ET. Was he supposed to play CB and prevent 8 goals as well?

Why didn’t ronaldo score more goals then? Clearly it wasn’t enough
 
I like how Messi being instrumental in Barcelona's choices of players/coaching staff over the last few years is completely overlooked and that he's the one being hard done by...

"you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villian"


Yes because Messi hand picked Enrique, Valverde, and Setien.
 
Who is giving him credit? It's a collective collapse by Barcelona and not just one on the pitch.

He doesn't need to score a goal in torrential batterings to prove he's the "GOAT". Scoring or impacting two goals against France in that hapless Argentina display didn't make him the greatest. And not winning a WC final won't keep him from being that. He's clearly the best footballer I've ever seen. But yes, Barcelona have major issues , that much is clear. To pin point on the player whose carried them for years, is bizarre. And we know who the ones pushing that motion in this thread are and what their agenda is anyway.

No one is pin pointing him for the loss. But he should take part of the blame as he is big part of the team and didn’t contribute anything, that’s all I am saying, no need to act so dramatic and re-emphasizing his career greatness in match like this. He is great player and had good season, we all know that, but he also has a bad game and Barca losing 2-8, no need to act overly defensive on that.
 
Sorry I dont see GOAT getting demolished 8-2 or equivalent in any sports. It’s like Michael Jordan got swept in first round to 8th seed team.
 
No one is pin pointing him for the loss. But he should take part of the blame, that’s all, no need to act so dramatic and re-emphasizing his greatness in moment like this. He is great player we all know that, he has a bad game and Barca losing 2-8, also no need to defend that.
Meh. When we got battered by City 6-1, we didn't jump on Rooney's peformance. Anyhoo, maybe he was poor, maybe he was decent. Either way, Barcelona have large problems to fix. If anything, being have to be carried by any one player is an issue. But their spending and mismanagement is the root cause they need to fix.
 
No he doesn't, he didn't run or do any donkey work throughout his entire career. Guardiola even said there is a reason for that and why he encouraged it Put him in the Bayern team or the City team or on the right wing for Liverpool and he'd be absolutely fine.

Your last sentence is very true though, we are starting to see the decline of them both (have been for maybe two years) and I think Leo will be the first one out. He looks like he has no love for football at the minute.
He wouldn’t be fine for any of those teams. Those are the 3 most team-oriented teams in the world, where every player has to, you know, break into a sweat. Look at the way all 3, especially Bayern, press. The old bulldog Messi would have been perfect for those teams and systems, but not this one. I agree that he’ll be the first one out, and that’ll be a sad day for football.
 
Wow first time I’ve seen Messi really in a few years...he’s a shell of the player he used to be. Barely moves, like a walking footballer. He’s actually a liability to a top team now as crazy as that sounds and his attitude seems very questionable
 
Do you genuinely think anyone is going to say no?
Me. I know he said reasonable fees and wages, but that isn’t happening as there’ll be riots in Catalonia if they get rid of him on the cheap. So, at least £100m and £1m/w for only a maximum two years of brilliant service instead of getting Sancho for ten? No thank you, even though I think he’s still the joint best player in the world with Lewandowski.
 
Wow first time I’ve seen Messi really in a few years...he’s a shell of the player he used to be. Barely moves, like a walking footballer. He’s actually a liability to a top team now as crazy as that sounds and his attitude seems very questionable
We didn't watch us vs Barcelona last season?

Messi is now more of a final third player. Keeping him further away from goal or isolating him now can work. He's no longer an alien. However, this liability term throwing around Messi and Ronaldo is just silly. In a tight game, they are still among the best difference makers. They're being compared to their best self, not to the peers.
 
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Not surprising. You literally have to be blind to the fact that when the going gets tough Messi does not get going.

It’s not an accident that Ronaldo has double the goals of Messi in the creme de la creme aka the knockout rounds of the champions league.

Curious, if Ronaldo is this Nelson Mandela type leader who single-handedly drives his team to victory, why did he struggle to win the league when in Spain? Or the only big games happen in the CL?

I can understand the criticism of Messi's leadership but let's not forget that Ronaldo is the biggest narcissist in the game. but as America has demonstrated, many seem to consider narcissism to be leadership.
 
This match didn’t tell us anything new about Messi honestly. He is too dependent on his team dominating. This is why he isn’t that good for Argentina or for Barca away from from Spain.

The truth is when the system is perfect, no one can do what he does. But that system has to be too perfect and at the moment only few teams have that kind of perfection.

For me that automatically makes him an inferior player to Ronaldo IMO because the latter can play for any team from Watford to Liverpool.
 
I went to visit barcelona for a holiday (live in Australia) back around 7 years ago and watched barcelona v Valencia and Messi was the laziest person on the pitch. This was 7 years ago!
 
We didn't watch us vs Barcelona last season?

Messi is now final third players. Keeping him further away from goal or isolating him now can work. He's no longer an alien. However this liability term throwing around Messi and Ronaldo is just silly. In a tie game, they are still among the best difference makers. They're being compared to their best self, not to the peers.

Excellent post.

People forget that those are probably the best two footballers we have seen in our time with one at least having a shot at best ever. Age gets to you sooner or later and teams adapt to your strengths, so the older you get unless you have a competent manager who can put you in the best position to succeed, you are going to have games like this when your team as a whole falters, no matter who you are.

Somebody mentioned that Michael Jordan would have never been swept. He did get swept twice in his early career. And Bayern aren’t an 8th seed they are the competition favourites. Just like the Celtics were at the time. Likewise, Lebron who was arguably the best player that other year also got swept in the final against a golden state team that simply had the most firepower in NBA history and he couldn’t cope alone. Similarly, Jordan needed Pippen and other pieces. And this is all in a team sport where an individual player makes more of a difference than most other teams sports (football included). You can’t attack and defend in football and be the keeper as well. In basketball, you are one of 5 players who attack and defend.

I’m football that’s different. Otherwise, the likes of Etoo should have won trophies with Mallorca. Van Persie should have at least won a league with Arsenal. Rooney with Everton. And the list goes on. Messi and Ronaldo are the two best players of our generation. And yet neither can do it alone. We saw how Ronaldo was in those finals vs Barcelona with us. Tried his best but it wasn’t enough. Same on most years he was there in la Liga. Even when in some of those years he won the Balon D'or. The other team was simply better set up, with Messi at the helm. We would be lucky if one of those two decides to end his career with us. But I doubt it would happen. In conclusion, stop the irrational hate.
 
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Do you know we've had debate over the years who is best? Ronaldo or Messi? I've changed my mind so many times. One min I think Messi and then Ronoaldo based on who had the better season. Now ive come to the conclusion ( and many will disagree ) it's defenitly Ronaldo, and here's why.

Ok we know Messi had has one more ( 6 )Ballon d'or than Ronaldo (5) you could argue during seasons 2009/10/11/12 that Messi was the best and somethng that many would agree on.

However, over the last 7 years Ronaldo has won it 4 times compared to Messi 2.

This is the difference for me that make Ronaldo the greatest player in the world, well at least at the moment till things may change Again.

Ronaldo has done it in Spain, Italy, Portugal & England. More importantly he's been a success every club where he's played for, let's not forget he played in some inferior teams when you compare them with messi. He's been successful on the biggest stage of the world in the World Cup.

Where has Messi done. it? Basically only ever played for one club in the world ( Spain ) Barcalona. He's never done it in the world club even though some of that's down to them not having a great side.

It's well advertised the hardest league in the world to win in is the Premier League. He's never played against our boys. Being at Barcalona week in week out he's playing against inferior opposition and surrounded totally buy world class players in Barcalona. No wonder he's scoring all the time with players like that round him. Ronaldo has never had that luxury and always done it the hard way..

No.... For me Ronaldo over the last ten years deserves to be named the greatest player in the world. It's now official :)
 
Do you know we've had debate over the years who is best? Ronaldo or Messi? I've changed my mind so many times. One min I think Messi and then Ronoaldo based on who had the better season. Now ive come to the conclusion ( and many will disagree ) it's defenitly Ronaldo, and here's why.

Ok we know Messi had has one more ( 6 )Ballon d'or than Ronaldo (5) you could argue during seasons 2009/10/11/12 that Messi was the best and somethng that many would agree on.

However, over the last 7 years Ronaldo has won it 4 times compared to Messi 2.

This is the difference for me that make Ronaldo the greatest player in the world, well at least at the moment till things may change Again.

Ronaldo has done it in Spain, Italy, Portugal & England. More importantly he's been a success every club where he's played for, let's not forget he played in some inferior teams when you compare them with messi. He's been successful on the biggest stage of the world in the World Cup.

Where has Messi done. it? Basically only ever played for one club in the world ( Spain ) Barcalona. He's never done it in the world club even though some of that's down to them not having a great side.

It's well advertised the hardest league in the world to win in is the Premier League. He's never played against our boys. Being at Barcalona week in week out he's playing against inferior opposition and surrounded totally buy world class players in Barcalona. No wonder he's scoring all the time with players like that round him. Ronaldo has never had that luxury and always done it the hard way..

No.... For me Ronaldo over the last ten years deserves to be named the greatest player in the world. It's now official :)
pretty sure he has 30 odd goals against pl teams
Those teams being
Man Utd
City
Scouse
Arsenal
Chelsea
Spurs
The teams that count.
Unless you think the like of nowhich wohld shut him out.
 
I doubt they wouldn’t make that money back in shirt sales and also other sponsorship deals. He’s the best there ever was. He would also have to be protected and rotated
Oh, the infamous shirt sales! He’d cost what, close to 200m even without a salary?

Manchester City gets about £65m per year from Puma (the contract was signed in 2019 for 10 years, so the sum won’t change even if Messi comes to them). Plus clubs generally get from 10 to 15% of profit per each kit sold. City official shirt costs ~£100, so they’ll get, let’s say, a generous £15 per shirt. They’ll need to sell 2,3 million shirts per year just to compensate for his salary alone. Currently United sells most shirts per year with 1,8 mil.
 
This match didn’t tell us anything new about Messi honestly. He is too dependent on his team dominating. This is why he isn’t that good for Argentina or for Barca away from from Spain.

The truth is when the system is perfect, no one can do what he does. But that system has to be too perfect and at the moment only few teams have that kind of perfection.

For me that automatically makes him an inferior player to Ronaldo IMO because the latter can play for any team from Watford to Liverpool.

True, and it's why hes not quite on the level of the others talked about as the best of all time.

Somebody above said Maradona could not have beaten Bayern last night. Maybe not, but he would have done a lot better than Messi did.
 
If Messi never kicked a ball again he will go down as a top 3 player of all time. Comfortably a better player than Ronaldo.
 
So he should get credit for losing 2-8?
Look, Messi has been a great player for Barca this season. But the team is build around him and he is big part of it, you can’t just let him take all the credits when the team is winning, and at the same time free from any blame when his team is losing big while he is strolling around and contributes nothing. It doesn’t work that way. If he is genuinely GOAT, should at least lead by example and contribute back a goal or 2, even when his team is hopeless to defend any goals.

You're truly relentless aren't you? Messi is one of the GOAT and his poor team collapsing in the CL is no poor reflection on him. Without going tit for tat, Ronaldo just went out vs Lyon... who are nowhere near the level of Bayern. Doesn't change he is one of the GOAT too.