Lionel Messi

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Brad said:
You sure about that?

I'm bored of reading how Messi "needs to improve" or is "overated"

It's all bullshit. The guys a brilliant player, I love to watch him even if it is sadly for another teams colours. But let's be frank about this. If the guy retired tomorrow, we'd remember him for being a brilliant player, and he's no age

The comparisons to Maradona are only fair at the end of his career. You have to give him the chance to achieve the same things or better! But the point is that he IS being compared, and that's fair, because he's that good. No one else in the game since Maradona has been worthy of that, but this lad is
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I'm not sure about that, Ronaldo pre 98 was better.

As I've said countless times, Messi is brilliant, and I'd give my left testicle to watch him turn out for the shirts, but when I read stuff like he'll be as good if not better than Maradona, it does make my mind boggle.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Rather he wont be adding any extra skills to what he has now. He will just master his current ones. Which will make him even more special than he is now. He is as mature a player skill wise as anyone of his type will get. All he lacks is experience. Nothing else.
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His passing could improve. Giggs has totally changed as a player, I don't see why Messi won't be able to add things to his locker.
 
Spoony said:
If if if if if if.

Messi will be 23 next world cup. Not exactly the same age. But he'll have a good WC. As he should, he IS a fantastic player, no one is denying that. And I have no idea why you're hell bent in trying to look silly with these Maradona comparisons.

How old are you Mr Vulgar? If you're old enough to remember Diego, you'll know where I'm coming from.
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Not old enough to have seen Maradona live but then who is? Live football matches are much more readily available now than they were then. Surely no-one outside of argentina would have seen much of Maradona until he joined Barca, and even then how many barca games would be on TV? or Napoli?

Anyway it is only an opinion. I'm sure i've read articles in which some respected ex footballers or the likes have said that at his age Messi is better than even Maradona at that age... I can't claim to have seen much of Maradona aged 21 but i really don't think comparisons are that wide of the mark.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
We're not having a political or philosophical debate here, we are talking about football. People can and do change there opinions, i'm sure you are itching to bring up every times ive said something against what i've already said so you can feel free and dig up all the old idiotic posts i've made if it makes you feel better Fortitude or continue to ask vague and pointless questions in order to get people to make further contradictions. Quite a talent you have.
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I have actually tried to get you to discuss Messi with some objectivty.. but rather than do that you get upset and start to contradict yourself quite wildly.. and you do it so that you don't ever, ever have to concede a point, even when your own contradictions highlight the flaws in your original statements.

I pull you up on what you say because you declare things as fact and if anyone disagrees with you they don't love football or something along those lines.

Not content with Messi being the best player at this current time you decide to declare him this all-encompassing god - for no reason at all. Why do you do that? Incidentally, that's when your hyperbole goes into overdrive and that's when a bunch of people contest your views.

Surely you see a pattern by now?

FranklyVulgar said:
Plenty of time to improve his passing, i dont buy this Maradona was the ultimate at 21 stuff. If he was that good why didn't they cream the world cup in the 82 world cup?

I think it is far easier to remember players with rose tinted specs than appreciate what we see in the modern game. I don't doubt Maradonas brilliance, i'd have him as the greatest player of all time and have seen enough and read enough to pretty much confirm that.

If Maradona is out on his own then who would you say Messi is genuinely comparable with if not maradona. Cruyff?
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Messi isn't comparable to any of the true greats of the game yet. In the future, being Argentine, he's definitely going to be mostly compared to Maradona.

Spoony said:
If if if if if if.

Messi will be 23 next world cup. Not exactly the same age. But he'll have a good WC. As he should, he IS a fantastic player, no one is denying that. And I have no idea why you're hell bent in trying to look silly with these Maradona comparisons.

How old are you Mr Vulgar? If you're old enough to remember Diego, you'll know where I'm coming from.
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This is what I don't get either. All the hyperbole and projections to world domination. What's the point of doing that?
 
Spoony said:
His passing could improve. Giggs has totally changed as a player, I don't see why Messi won't be able to add things to his locker.
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Fair enough

Thing is for me Giggs changed because at Messi's age he wasn't as mature as Messi is. Not even Fabregas, (the only other play of this recent generation that I can think of) has exhibited the maturity of play this boy has since age 17. His passing yes will improve. But mainly because of experience. Not because he will be mastering a new way to pass. Like happened with the like of Giggs, Who learned to be more like a Scholes as he aged and eventually slowed.

Right now Messi is capable of pulling off what a Scholes at his best does in center midfield. Just not with the consistency because of his young age. That's what I mean when I say he wont be adding much to himself apart from experience. Because for me Messi is as close to a finshed article skill wise as can be at that age.
 
Spoony said:
I'm not sure about that, Ronaldo pre 98 was better.

As I've said countless times, Messi is brilliant, and I'd give my left testicle to watch him turn out for the shirts, but when I read stuff like he'll be as good if not better than Maradona, it does make my mind boggle.
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Well that's your personal opinion Spoons. Ronaldo was absolutely leathal, no question about that, and that acceleration he had was something else. Actually, this season, Messi aint actually too far off the goal a game ratio Ronaldo managed in his one year at Barca! And Messi is a year younger I believe. And very much not an out and out striker like Ronaldo was. I don't think that's a clear cut one at all actually. Which says something in itself, given how great a player Ronaldo was back then
 
To be honest i can't remember saying he's an all encompasing god, just that he's the best around right now by a distance. That he could be better than Maradona and that he could be a legend of the game.

At 21 he's as good as it gets in right now by quite some distance in my opinion and the fact he could get better makes me believe that he is capable of becoming a legend of the game. Also i do believe that he is a footballing genius, he is a very rare talent indeed.
 
Fortitude said:
This is what I don't get either. All the hyperbole and projections to world domination. What's the point of doing that?
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That's my gripe. What Vulgar is not grasping, is that Maradona was the BPITW in 82, better than Platini, another all time great. Better than Zico, one of the top five Brazilians, ever(for me he was every bit as good as Ronaldo). And he's not even qualified to make these comparisons. If you combine Tevez with Messi, you still wouldn't have a Maradona. He was out of this world.
 
I've requested this about 20 times since seeing it but i'll try again anyway. Maybe 9 months ago someone posted a lengthy Youtube video of Messi's assists and passing, no goals or dribbling. It was pretty extraordinary stuff considering he's not known primarily for his vision or passing. It was in the classic Catalan style and it could have been Xavi or Fabregas making the passes.

He'll be hard pushed to match Maradona but I can't think of any other player who's skill set has been as close to matching the great man's. Messi is the standout player of this generation no doubt but Maradona was the standout of the last 30 odd years, if not the history of the game.
 
Brad said:
Well that's your personal opinion Spoons. Ronaldo was absolutely leathal, no question about that, and that acceleration he had was something else. Actually, this season, Messi aint actually too far off the goal a game ratio Ronaldo managed in his one year at Barca! And Messi is a year younger I believe. And very much not an out and out striker like Ronaldo was. I don't think that's a clear cut one at all actually. Which says something in itself, given how great a player Ronaldo was back then
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Ronaldo had great dribbling skills, pace, acceleration and power. Oh and he was a brilliant finisher to boot. He was amazing, there's no doubt that. I think the Ronaldo and Messi comparisons are more valid, actually.
 
Spoony said:
That's my gripe. What Vulgar is not grasping, is that Maradona was the BPITW in 82, better than Platini, another all time great. Better than Zico, one of the top five Brazilians, ever(for me he was every bit as good as Ronaldo). And he's not even qualified to make these comparisons. If you combine Tevez with Messi, you'd still wouldn't have a Maradona. He was out of this world.
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SO basically there arent as many out of this world footballers currently playing the game. THe standard or at least individual talent isn't up to the mark of generations past making it all the more astounding to somone like myself to see a player like Messi.

That would be an explination for why i think of him so highly, having not experienced that era of football i can't give an honest view of it. By all accounts it all time greats all over it where as out of this generation Messi is a real standout but i don't see another player capable of reaching PLatini or Zico standards never mind Maradona..
 
dumbo said:
I've requested this about 20 times since seeing it but i'll try again anyway. Maybe 9 months ago someone posted a lengthy Youtube video of Messi's assists and passing, no goals or dribbling. It was pretty extraordinary stuff considering he's not known primarily for his vision or passing. It was in the classic Catalan style and it could have been Xavi or Fabregas making the passes.

He'll be hard pushed to match Maradona but I can't think of any other player who's skill set has been as close to matching the great man's. Messi is the standout player of this generation no doubt but Maradona was the standout of the last 30 odd years, if not the history of the game.
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post #3259 in this very thread. page 82.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
SO basically there arent as many out of this world footballers currently playing the game. THe standard or at least individual talent isn't up to the mark of generations past making it all the more astounding to somone like myself to see a player like Messi.

That would be an explination for why i think of him so highly, having not experienced that era of football i can't give an honest view of it. By all accounts it all time greats all over it where as out of this generation Messi is a real standout but i don't see another player capable of reaching PLatini or Zico standards never mind Maradona..
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Dare I say FV that's a very good post.It kinda expresses my feeling too when I see him play at times
 
kouroux said:
I'm sorry .Were you on a WUM or something with your initial post that I quoted or not ?It's just hard to differentiate between genuine idiots and others who are taking the piss
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I get a bit miffed when folks patch onto one particular aspect of a post and interpret it as the 'black' from their pov and don't give the OP credit for having basic footballing knowledge, which for the most part I'll empart to all on here ... at least initially.

simply put, messi regularly does stuff that no other player in modern football can achieve and that is to consistenty beat his man - he literally takes the piss in a most humble manner. that is why, even folks with a pasing interest in the game can recognise a special player.

from what I remember of maradona he was fantastic but frankly, that was then ... and, yahh, this is now. that's all that really matters .... to me anyway.

cheers.
 
MaroonPondlife said:
I get a bit miffed when folks patch onto one particular aspect of a post and interpret it as the 'black' from their pov and don't give the OP credit for having basic footballing knowledge, which for the most part I'll empart to all on here ... at least initially.

simply put, messi regularly does stuff that no other player in modern football can achieve and that is to consistenty beat his man - he literally takes the piss in a most humble manner. that is why, even folks with a pasing interest in the game can recognise a speial player.

from what I remember of maradona he was fantastic but frankly, that was then ... and, yahh, this is now. that's all that really matters .... to me anyway.

cheers.
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Fair enough
 
FranklyVulgar said:
SO basically there arent as many out of this world footballers currently playing the game. THe standard or at least individual talent isn't up to the mark of generations past making it all the more astounding to somone like myself to see a player like Messi.

That would be an explination for why i think of him so highly, having not experienced that era of football i can't give an honest view of it. By all accounts it all time greats all over it where as out of this generation Messi is a real standout but i don't see another player capable of reaching PLatini or Zico standards never mind Maradona..
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I think C Ronaldo could make the next bracket down(below Maradona). Messi certainly can. Over the last 15 years only Ronaldo and Zidane have made it into that category, for me. We've seen some fantastic players, like Nedved, Figo, Giggs, Rivaldo et al but those two stood out more than the rest.
 
Spoony said:
I think C Ronaldo could make the next bracket down(below Maradona). Messi certainly can. Over the last 15 years only Ronaldo and Zidane have made it into that category, for me. We've seen some fantastic players, like Nedved, Figo, Giggs, Rivaldo et al but those two stood out more than the rest.
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Alright, i think Messi has the closest chance of getting close to the Maradona bracket.

YOu have the man on a pedestal which is fair enough but some wouldnt even agree that he's the best ever... I mean i do, but people who have seen other legends of the game sometimes are of the opinion that Pele is better or George Best.
 
Brad said:
Well that's your personal opinion Spoons. Ronaldo was absolutely leathal, no question about that, and that acceleration he had was something else. Actually, this season, Messi aint actually too far off the goal a game ratio Ronaldo managed in his one year at Barca! And Messi is a year younger I believe. And very much not an out and out striker like Ronaldo was. I don't think that's a clear cut one at all actually. Which says something in itself, given how great a player Ronaldo was back then
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Ronaldo was a year younger at Barca.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Alright, i think Messi has the closest chance of getting close to the Maradona bracket.

YOu have the man on a pedestal which is fair enough but some wouldnt even agree that he's the best ever... I mean i do, but people who have seen other legends of the game sometimes are of the opinion that Pele is better or George Best.
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Because I've seen him do things with the ball, that simply defy belief. Not only that but he had an aura about him. Even at 21! As for Messi, nah he won't ever be as good as Maradona. But as I said, the next level down? possible. There are some brilliant players in there.
 
Spoony said:
Because I've seen him do things with the ball, that simply defy belief. Not only that but he had an aura about him. Even at 21! As for Messi, nah he won't ever be as good as Maradona. But as I said, the next level down? possible. There are some brilliant players in there.
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what about the people who would say on his day Best was better than even Maradona? Unless best was before your time and maradona was of it ;)
 
FranklyVulgar said:
what about the people who would say on his day Best was better than even Maradona? Unless best was before your time and maradona was of it ;)
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But I've met more oldies who think Maradona's the best, ever.

He really was out of this world, Mr Vulgar. I've seen some truly brilliant players such Ronaldo, Zico, Van Basten, Gullit, Zidane, Platini, Mido etc. But he was more than a cut above them. And that speaks volumes.

I'm lucky enough to have seen him play at his peak. Lucky, lucky, lucky.
 
Spoony said:
But I've met more oldies who think Maradona's the best, ever.

He really was out of this world, Mr Vulgar. I've seen some truly brilliant players such Ronaldo, Zico, Van Basten, Gullit, Zidane, Platini, Mido etc. But he was more than a cut above them. And that speaks volumes.

I'm lucky enough to have seen him play at his peak. Lucky, lucky, lucky.
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:lol:

i'm dripping with envy, just feck off you lucky old cnuts!!! :D

Most of my memories of loving players was italy early 90s. Baggio etc, loved him.

Then obviously the Zidane era, Ronaldo, Nedved, Rivaldo. Still great great players. Just so hard to be rated or to get into that cut above...
 
FranklyVulgar said:
:lol:

i'm dripping with envy, just feck off you lucky old cnuts!!! :D

Most of my memories of loving players was italy early 90s. Baggio etc, loved him.

Then obviously the Zidane era, Ronaldo, Nedved, Rivaldo. Still great great players. Just so hard to be rated or to get into that cut above...
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Baggio was very good. I actually think Del Piero was better before his injury. He only really had two season at his absolute best. Shame that.

Oh and I wish I could watch Mexico 86 all over again.
 
How old are you, by the way?

i wish I were 18 again, but then I would've missed all that and Bryan Robson.
 
Fortitude said:
Ronaldo was a year younger at Barca.
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Yes my apologies, looks like I got that fact wrong

Sadly for Ronaldo, he only had another great season at Inter after that, then the next he had his first big injury, and bar a few years at Madrid, never performed again really. And even at Madrid he wasn't nearly the player he was before. We were robbed of a great talent. That said he liked his party lifestyle, who's to say he wouldn't have gone the way he had anyway? It's a pretty familiar story with these travelling Brazilians
 
Spoony said:
Baggio was very good. I actually think Del Piero was better before his injury. He only really had two season at his absolute best. Shame that.

Oh and I wish I could watch Mexico 86 all over again.
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86 was great, but 82 was still my favorite. didn't see much of maradona in 90 as i was in genoa & then turin then corfu:(, then on train station floor in athens

I actually thought maradona was going to do it all again in 94 - he was really coming onto a game .... until he runs to the camera and stares down the world. blast!
 
MaroonPondlife said:
good on you frankly vulgar ... I'm with you on this one.

watched a lot of football over the last 30 yrs and nobody excites me as much as this kid. everybody wants to see him play ... hmmm, I wonder why.

- his dribbling is second to none.
- his short passing game is up there with the very best - I wouldn't necessarily say there was any better.
- his finishing is xcellent.

without him barcelona would be ordinary.
without him football would be ordinary. I don't rember thinking that when platini played, when rivaldo played, when the brazilian ronaldo played, when zidane played. Maradona was a different beast mind, though I didn't see him every week.

messi' skill - beating the man, is the hardest in football, and he does it with consumate ease ... time & time again.
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But that's just not true.

And you know it.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
To be honest i can't remember saying he's an all encompasing god, just that he's the best around right now by a distance. That he could be better than Maradona and that he could be a legend of the game.

At 21 he's as good as it gets in right now by quite some distance in my opinion and the fact he could get better makes me believe that he is capable of becoming a legend of the game. Also i do believe that he is a footballing genius, he is a very rare talent indeed.
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Yes, but you should just cut that out. That one line ruins everything.

If you've not seen Maradona enough then you're not qualified to make that comparison.

Saying he could be a legend of the game is more realistic.
 
Brwned said:
But that's just not true.

And you know it.
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might not for you there, but for me its a given. football has imo taken a turn for the worse over the past 5 or so years. messi has been the only shining light.

I'll sit up again only if a team emerges that can truly dominate, or comes out of nowhere seemingly, like bayern leverkusen did about 10 yrs ago.
 
Brwned said:
Yes, but you should just cut that out. That one line ruins everything.

If you've not seen Maradona enough then you're not qualified to make that comparison.

Saying he could be a legend of the game is more realistic.
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Then no-one is qualified to say anything in football. Pele was before, before him Di Stefano and before him....

No-one can see them all and i respect peoples opinions enough to learn about the past of football but to say they can never be compared or can only be compared by someone who has seen them both doesn't work in football.
 
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