Again, what qualifies Messi as a genius? What does he do that is genial?
Lionel Messi
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Again, what qualifies Messi as a genius? What does he do that is genial?
That was the case for ronaldo last year and he's not a genius according to you.
Messi certainly has sublime technique, perhaps the best since maradona, goes past players for fun, scores goals and makes assists and can do things on the ball others just can't.
But he is not one I see regularly making that pass no one else saw or linking up in a way to create a goal in the minisculest of spaces or even dictacting play with outstanding decisionmaking.
Ronaldo was brilliant but he doesnt blow oposition away the way the players mentioned do. Messi does the unimaginable and that's what sets him apart.
That's bollocks. He's been poor by his standards but rarely our worst performer.
Ronaldo's footballing intelligence is massively underrated. You don't score 42 goals in a season from his position without a fantastic understanding of the game.
other players like who Baggio, Del Piero, Cryuff etc! Ronaldo has enough tricks and skills to make any player go wow!! So your chatting shit!!To be honest, I've lost count of the amount of times that I've walked out of Old Trafford and thought "Christ, Ronaldo was absolutely wank today; what's going wrong?".
It's obviously not too much of a problem in the long-term, because he'll either sort himself out or finally jump ship. Fine by me, either way.
In the words of John McEnroe, "you cannot be serious!"
Isnt this worse though?
Ronaldo dives/goes down easily frequently to the extent that it's nigh on impossible to count the amount of times he does it each game. There's obviously no comparison.
Kingeric7, in what way is Messi's genius similar to that of Scholes? Ability he has bags off but in terms of passing and vision i've seen nothing of him even close to Scholes or someone like Ronaldhinio in his prime. Messi is possiby probably as good as the latter (he can be better when he wins things for Barca) but purely in terms of passing and vision to weave things together i think well behind someone like Scholes. I dont think he picks out outrageous passes and passes noone else sees like scholes does, or like Ronaldhinio used to. Some of the latters cross field passes were like a joke, to Guily i think. It would stun everyone. Messi doesnt do that. He has unbelievable ability hence he relies on that and a smart football brain. But i never watch him and go, oh my go what a ball, or what vision.
IMO Rooney has much better vision/ football brain. q
IMO Rooney has much better vision/ football brain. q
That bit of cheating by Messi almost decided the championship, and I kinda hoped it would, but they managed to feck it up at the end.
But you're KingEric7 and I shouldnt argue with royalty.
I'm not going to disagree with anything with anything positive in terms of Wayne Rooney, but Messi's passing is massively underrated.
It's obviously not on the level of, say, Maradona, but I'd say that his ability to play the defence splitting pass is at least as good as Scholes', granted that it's on the deck. I seem to remember an absolutely ridiculous pass to Aguero during the Olympics which just left me in utter disbelief, and there have been many others.I think I know which Ronaldinho pass you're on about; the lobbed one to Giuly in the Champions League semi final, right? That was obscene....what happened to him?
I'm not going to disagree with anything with anything positive in terms of Wayne Rooney, but Messi's passing is massively underrated.
I think I know which Ronaldinho pass you're on about; the lobbed one to Giuly in the Champions League semi final, right? That was obscene....what happened to him?
Im sorry, i see Messi as much as i can. But he very rarely plays those stunning passes. Scholes is a genius at work in that department, short, long, one touch, flicks etc its just all there in his locker. He thinks so quickly in the pass too. Messi is an animal when it comes to going past players, we all know that, but i just dont see him in the same league as Scholes when it comes to vision/ passing. IMO, of course.
I feel he is better than our Ronaldo in that department but nowhere close to Scholes ATM. I see that in Wayne. He has to those touches when he outfoxes opposition players rather than outdoing them with pure technical ability all the time. I see a lot of Scholes in him and thats something i dont think Messi has, right now.
I actually dont remember the pass specifically. But everytime you watched Ronaldhinio in his pomp he played a few almost every game. It was stunning to watch, because here we had this devastating attacking midfielder/ forward and when noone expected it he would pick a stunner of a ball. There was such appreciation from the Nou Camp when he did that. There were times when even the person he played it to didnt see it coming and hence didnt make it and they still applauded him. That was great at the time because he brought Barca back alive and their appreciation was evident. He put on a show for them. With Messi, they've already seen that success so i dont see that in the fans.
tricks and skills?
if you measure a genius on tricks and skills then good luck to you
Ronaldinho was unbelievable. One of the few players that could make you both lean forward in your seat at times and lean back and enjoy at other times.
tricks and skills?
if you measure a genius on tricks and skills then good luck to you
You've made sure to duck my question, twice.
Does things other players don't think of. Always looks in control, does the unimaginable and with such variety. He has the qualities that make him stand out as a genius, in any team he's played in he has looked on another level from even the likes of Eto'o, Henry and Xavi. He's this generations genius and i think he'll go on and prove that to the remaining doubters over the next 10 years.
'this generation' consists of whom? What I really dislike about your statements is the prematurity of nearly all of them. It's like you will it to be true, so it must be even if it hasn't happened yet.
What separates Messi's 'genius' from Rooney's, Ineista's or Xavi's, may I ask?
tricks and skills?
if you measure a genius on tricks and skills then good luck to you
Did i mention Genuis in my sentence? Yeah measure genius with tricks and skills is a bit like measuring it to taking on players!
What makes him a better player than all the ones mentioned? All the players you mentioned have exeptional attacking qualities but Messi has the qualities of them all and then more.
Sure it's premature but that doesn't really bother me, it's premature given the fact Messi is 21, but at 21 years old he's already the best around which makes me believe in his ability more.
If someone else matches Messi for brilliance then i'll welcome it, right now i don't see anyone close in the world of football, of course that can change but for now Messi is as good as it gets.
Messi does not have the qualities of those mentioned in the slightest. He has his own set of attributes that make him mercurial, but a genius? With what he has shown thus far? No.
Messi's age isn't so much a factor as his achievements, or, the lack of them so far. At 21 Pele was already an all-time great and so was Ronaldo (Brazil) but after that, most of the greats came of age around 25ish. You talk of Messi in tones he has yet to earn.
Messi is as good as it gets at what he does, which is primarily dribbling. He's definitely not 'as good as it gets' in other facets of the game. You actually make him sound like Maradona.
Wow Messi's passing/vision is definitely underrated.
If anything, it's actually overrated.
I agree.
Agree.
The clip was impressive and all but I watch him almost every week and his passing and vision isn't up there with the best IMO. Luckily hes so good in other respects it doesnt stop him from being the best right now. Ronaldhinio in his pomp for example was exception in this respect.
Thats fine, but thats your opinion. Being objective, you'd able to see that for the 5 games prior to the Liverpool game, he was by far our best player on the pitch game in and game out. He started looking like the Ronaldo of 06/07.
But you bias towards your hatred of Ronaldo discredits your argument.
I agree. How is any of that particularly special?
Players like Scholes have been doing that for donkey years so to say that he's doing anything exceptional is an overstatement.
Fung me I can do that in my local fourth grade... does that make me the new Maradona? Anybody with a footballing brain can pick out the correct pass. The only difference is that Messi's doing it on the world scene not on the pitch down the road with 10 spectators watching you.
I'm sure his passing will improve though as it has improved a lot this season.
Exactly. Messi is an amazing player with incredible dribbling ability and good vision and awareness, not exceptional.
The skills he has and how he uses them is what makes him the best at the moment, but that doesn't by default qualify him as a genius.
What he does is mostly predictable, but he's so good at carrying the ball that teams struggle to stop him. He rarely has those sudden moments of inspirational vision and execution that no one else on the pitch or in the stands would fail to see beforehand or the audacity to pull it off.
Iniesta appears to be the most ingenious player at Barca with his completely unpredictable moments of inspiration and Xavi clearly has the most overall vision and execution i.e. a heightened awareness, like Scholes for us. Messi doesn't top either of those players in that regard - but, evidently, he is still the best player in the world this season.
It just gets nauseous when he's attributed skills and such that are relatively ordinary when compared to other players in their pomp. Messi, for example, will most likely never have the vision and audacity of Ronaldinho in his pomp, but it doesn't mean he won't eclipse him as a player.
Exactly.
It's making a myth out of a brilliant player who doesn't need added hyperbole to be acknowledged as the current best or a potential all-time great.
Messi's so good he has to be judged by specially demanding criteria? What's your assessment of Ronaldo by that yardstick then?
To be called a genius? Yes.
He is a player with exceptional natural dribbling ability, but outside of that facet, he is bested by others on his own team. It's the combination of skills he has that make him excel, but without his dribbling you would not be able to separate him from the pack at Barcelona.
C.Ronaldo is no genius.
That's actually a pretty accurate description of Messi.Well done,it'll be interesting to see if his gameplay will improve in the seasons to come even if there isn't much he need to do.
So in the space of a few hours Messis passing and vision have went from being non existant to over-rated then back to under-rated...
I don't understand why Messi devides opinion so readily, i thought the rediculous "he's only a good dribbler" stuff was put to bed? Old habits die hard i guess.
One person talks about his vision as nothing special, something you see Scholes do all the time. Now you do realize Scholes has special vision and is one of the best passers in the world?
I don't understand why Messi devides opinion so readily, i thought the rediculous "he's only a good dribbler" stuff was put to bed? Old habits die hard i guess.
One person talks about his vision as nothing special, something you see Scholes do all the time. Now you do realize Scholes has special vision and is one of the best passers in the world?
That's the thing though, it doesn't need to and if it does, it'll be a welcome bonus. If he repeats his Youth World Cup performance in the proper world cup he'll be cemented as a legend and fairly hailed as something people want to believe he already is.
I said in this thread a hundred pages or something ago that Messi's game almost completely revolves around his dribbling and that's very different to any one else mentioned as a genius. Even when unable to run around the pitch Maradona, Platini, Zico etc were lethal because they were the best passers on the planet with the vision needed to completely modify their games. When Baggio was at his best no-one had any idea what he'd do next - he wasn't reliant on any one attribute.
I think it's fair to say that without his dribbling Messi would be fecked as a potential all-time great where you could take away what you think is the best attribute of any of the above and they have two or three more that would still make them great if they had need to alter their game.
I think that's the point.
What made Maradona a genius was that he was the best dribbler in the world and the best passer in the world, and would still be if he was playing right now.
Messi's one and two touch play is great and his eye for a killer ball is impressive, but I wouldn't say it's any better than Iniesta's, never mind Scholes or Xavi.
Where has anyone said his passing and vision is non-existent? Go ahead and show a post saying that.
You have a selective reading problem with how you intepret the text you take in if you believe your second paragraph to be a reasonable conclusion.
The point should be first noted that Messi doesn't actually have Scholes' vision, range or passing ability and by the harshest standards (The Maradona's, Platini's, Zico's, Baggio's etc) Scholes himself mightn't be called a genius. So when you then place Messi above the likes of Scholes in this department, you simply make a parody of yourself.
What has impressed me the most is his consistency this season.No matter the competition he's doing very well.He has improved his game and his passing can reach some higher level man this kid will be unstoppable
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