Lionel Messi

[FranklyVulgar]

Where has anyone said his passing and vision is non-existent? Go ahead and show a post saying that.

You have a selective reading problem with how you intepret the text you take in if you believe your second paragraph to be a reasonable conclusion.

The point should be first noted that Messi doesn't actually have Scholes' vision, range or passing ability and by the harshest standards (The Maradona's, Platini's, Zico's, Baggio's etc) Scholes himself mightn't be called a genius. So when you then place Messi above the likes of Scholes in this department, you simply make a parody of yourself.

when did i put him ahead of scholes in the vision stakes? At his age i expect that to be one of the things he improves on, i've seen him play the sort of pass scholes would be proud of. He has shown he has great vision and passing ability and it's something i don't doubt will come to the fore as his career progresses.

 

[Fortitude]

when did i put him ahead of scholes in the vision stakes? At his age i expect that to be one of the things he improves on, i've seen him play the sort of pass scholes would be proud of. He has shown he has great vision and passing ability and it's something i don't doubt will come to the fore as his career progresses.

Do actually realise the hyperbole you apply to your Messi-related posts?

You've practically said he is on another planet to everyone else active.

You keep saying he does the 'unimaginable' all the time as well. Messi hasn't done anything that hasn't been done before to date, so how can it be 'unimaginable'?

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Do actually realise the hyperbole you apply to your Messi-related posts?

You've practically said he is on another planet to everyone else active.

You keep saying he does the 'unimaginable' all the time as well. Messi hasn't done anything that hasn't been done before to date, so how can it be 'unimaginable'?

He is better than all the players mentioned. You seem to think only in terms of dribbling. He's not this isn't Aaron Lennon we are talking about here and it takes a lot more than dribbling to be the best in the world.

We seem to be putting it down to vision and passing as to what makes a genius and i think that is fine but at 21 his passing will improve but the vision is already there and that is plain to see. I'm not sure how amazing the other greats were at every aspect of there game at 21, no doubt Maradona was as good aged 21 as he was aged 26...

I guess the world cup will be a big judging point, keeping in mind that Maradonas first world cup wasn't great glory and he was around the same age messi will be when he wears the number 10 shirt of the argies in 2010.

 

[Fortitude]

He is better than all the players mentioned. You seem to think only in terms of dribbling. He's not this isn't Aaron Lennon we are talking about here and it takes a lot more than dribbling to be the best in the world.

We seem to be putting it down to vision and passing as to what makes a genius and i think that is fine but at 21 his passing will improve but the vision is already there and that is plain to see. I'm not sure how amazing the other greats were at every aspect of there game at 21, no doubt Maradona was as good aged 21 as he was aged 26...

I guess the world cup will be a big judging point, keeping in mind that Maradonas first world cup wasn't great glory and he was around the same age messi will be when he wears the number 10 shirt of the argies in 2010.

My posts aren't optical illusions, are they? I've made it clear what I think in the last few posts and if you've only taken the first paragraph out of that then it's simply impossible to get reasoned, objective discussion out of you on this subject.

I don't think vision only comes down to passing, personally, I think part and parcel of having great vision is in doing the most harmful thing to the opposition or to make the most penetrating play (be it a step-over at the right moment or an off-the-ball run to open the play up for someone following in) to unsettle the opposition. For Barcelona, Iniesta, at times, displays what I think is the touch of genius in what he attempts on the field - same as Rooney here. That's not to say either is the best player on their respective team.

What Messi might be at 25/26 should be of no relevance at the moment. Point is, you keep projecting and saying he is 'there' already, which, for me, invalidates a lot of your posts.. You don't seem to just be able to appreciate him for what he is at the moment, you've always got to add on things to make him sound larger than life. We all watch Messi each week, so how can so many say his vision or whatever doesn't outstrip Xavi's etc if you're so adamant he is simply on another level to his team-mates?

 

[peterstorey]

I think you're getting bogged down in analysis and the 'mental' aspects - there is something special about how Messi controls the ball and runs at players, genius is a fair description.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

completely agree with fortitude here. Noones saying messi is just a dribbler. But take his dribbling away and I don't think he could become a great play on his passing and vision alone like scholes. In those aspects he's good not great. Ronaldhinio was great in that respect, long short diagnal flicks, he would showcase it all.

 

[Fortitude]

I think you're getting bogged down in analysis and the 'mental' aspects - there is something special about how Messi controls the ball and runs at players, genius is a fair description.

If that were true (it's not) then many would be guilty of falling for the aesthetics of Messi's game and letting it bias them to such a degree they can no longer look at him objectively.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

My posts aren't optical illusions, are they? I've made it clear what I think in the last few posts and if you've only taken the first paragraph out of that then it's simply impossible to get reasoned, objective discussion out of you on this subject.

I don't think vision only comes down to passing, personally, I think part and parcel of having great vision is in doing the most harmful thing to the opposition or to make the most penetrating play (be it a step-over at the right moment or an off-the-ball run to open the play up for someone following in) to unsettle the opposition. For Barcelona, Iniesta, at times, displays what I think is the touch of genius in what he attempts on the field - same as Rooney here. That's not to say either is the best player on their respective team.

What Messi might be at 25/26 should be of no relevance at the moment. Point is, you keep projecting and saying he is 'there' already, which, for me, invalidates a lot of your posts.. You don't seem to just be able to appreciate him for what he is at the moment, you've always got to add on things to make him sound larger than life. We all watch Messi each week, so how can so many say his vision or whatever doesn't outstrip Xavi's etc if you're so adamant he is simply on another level to his team-mates?

he plays in a different position. It isn't his place to be getting the ball in the middle of the park and spraying passes around. He is no doubt capable but why would anyone utilize their best player in this mannor?

He is on another level to his team mates and is the most important member of any team he plays for, that much is obvious.

 

[Mainoldo]

I think you're getting bogged down in analysis and the 'mental' aspects - there is something special about how Messi controls the ball and runs at players, genius is a fair description.

There most definatley is but it's no different to how Giggs use to dribble and how Robben did and is starting to do again! The fact of the matter is he's a great dribbler but because the art is so limited in todays football we seem to think its the best thing we've ever seen and its not!

 

[B20]

There most definatley is but it's no different to how Giggs use to dribble and how Robben did and is starting to do again! The fact of the matter is he's a great dribbler but because the art is so limited in todays football we seem to think its the best thing we've ever seen and its not!

Messi is a far better dribbler than robben or giggs.

It has nothing to do with the art being limited today. He is already up there with a very select few players in the history of football in that particular department.

 

[peterstorey]

If that were true (it's not) then many would be guilty of falling for the aesthetics of Messi's game and letting it bias them to such a degree they can no longer look at him objectively.

It is about aesthetics too.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

It's the ability they have that makes football look easy. Like Best, just beating a man with a simple shimmy, the way they control a ball, the ease they have when doing things. The goal for argentina was an example. Tevez is a brilliant player but sometimes he really battles with the ball when trying to control it. He passes to Messi who gives him it back then recieves a good return but it's the first touch with the outside of his left foot that makes the goal. Pure class in that first touch and made to look so easy.

 

[Fortitude]

he plays in a different position. It isn't his place to be getting the ball in the middle of the park and spraying passes around. He is no doubt capable but why would anyone utilize their best player in this mannor?

He is on another level to his team mates and is the most important member of any team he plays for, that much is obvious.

Ronaldinho oplayed the exact same position as Messi on the other side of the pitch. Maradona essentially played the same position as Messi does at times. Zidane played on the left side of RM's attack. Cruyff started a lot of runs and plays from wide positions. Point is, being in the middle of the pitch doesn't have a lot to do with what you're saying.

Messi is not on another level to his team-mates and Xavi is there most important player, afaic. You're view is very blinkered, almost as if you dismiss the roles others have in their team fot the one whose style you are particularly drawn to. That's no way to be objective.

Messi is a far better dribbler than robben or giggs.

It has nothing to do with the art being limited today. He is already up there with a very select few players in the history of football in that particular department.

Without question, Messi is an absolutely phenomenal dribbler.

It is about aesthetics too.

Of course it's not. That just means you are drawn to that style of play.

It's the ability they have that makes football look easy. Like Best, just beating a man with a simple shimmy, the way they control a ball, the ease they have when doing things. The goal for argentina was an example. Tevez is a brilliant player but sometimes he really battles with the ball when trying to control it. He passes to Messi who gives him it back then recieves a good return but it's the first touch with the outside of his left foot that makes the goal. Pure class in that first touch and made to look so easy.

And that equates to genius in and of itself, does it?

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Ronaldinho oplayed the exact same position as Messi on the other side of the pitch. Maradona essentially played the same position as Messi does at times. Zidane played on the left side of RM's attack. Cruyff started a lot of runs and plays from wide positions. Point is, being in the middle of the pitch doesn't have a lot to do with what you're saying.

Yeah and? Messi can be as good as any of them, he can be better than any of them.

Messi is not on another level to his team-mates and Xavi is there most important player, afaic. You're view is very blinkered, almost as if you dismiss the roles others have in their team fot the one whose style you are particularly drawn to. That's no way to be objective.

Well they say he is, his team mates admit it, his manager would say so, plenty of people would agree with me that he is on another level and he is without a doubt the most important player in that team. the stats tell you as much.

And that equates to genius in and of itself, does it?

Not exactly but it reminds me of greats of the game, they make it look easy and Messi at times makes it look very easy.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah and? Messi can be as good as any of them, he can be better than any of them.

And read what you just posted and what I just answered to. You're going around in circles

Well they say he is, his team mates admit it, his manager would say so, plenty of people would agree with me that he is on another level and he is without a doubt the most important player in that team. the stats tell you as much.

Messi is their best player, not most important. There's a big difference between the two. You take Xavi out of that team and the midfield will grind to halt and then the forwards will be starved of supply. He's the most important cog in the Barca set-up because he enables all of those ahead of him to play by dissecting the opposition with one sublime pass after the other. He draws players towards him and creates unreal amounts of space for all 3 forwards ahead of him.

To say Messi is levels above him is ridiculous. They both carry out their particular job brilliantly, but midfield is the most important area on the pitch.

Not exactly but it reminds me of greats of the game, they make it look easy and Messi at times makes it look very easy.

But what does that have to do with genius? Is every player who makes the game look easy a genius?

 

[Spoony]

Yeah and? Messi can be as good as any of them, he can be better than any of them.



.

He'll never be a patch on Maradona. He doesn't have his all round game.

You're not Messi's mother, are you?

 

[FranklyVulgar]

He'll never be a patch on Maradona. He doesn't have his all round game.

You're not Messi's mother, are you?

can anyone ever?

I'd say he'll be as close as it can get.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

If anything, it's actually overrated.

Agreed. Even in his own team Iniesta and Xavi surpass him on that front.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Messi is a far better dribbler than robben or giggs.

It has nothing to do with the art being limited today. He is already up there with a very select few players in the history of football in that particular department.

Spot on. The dribbling that kid can do with a ball is sometimes beyond understanding.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Agreed. Even in his own team Iniesta and Xavi surpass him on that front.

Two world class players with the best passing ability on the planet right now....

One is at the very peak of his powers and the other has proven to be one of the most talented players around. Iniesta is a gem of a player no doubt. I don't remember him being the unplayable force he is now a few years ago and i would expect Messi to improve on aspects of his game, you don't think he can or will improve despite him being 21.

 

[Fortitude]

Two world class players with the best passing ability on the planet right now....

One is at the very peak of his powers and the other has proven to be one of the most talented players around. Iniesta is a gem of a player no doubt. I don't remember him being the unplayable force he is now a few years ago and i would expect Messi to improve on aspects of his game, you don't think he can or will improve despite him being 21.

You've said he's levels above everyone on his own team...

You've just compared him to Maradona..

 

[FranklyVulgar]

You've said he's levels above everyone on his own team...

You've just compared him to Maradona..

Yes? he is on another level to them as players IMO doesn't mean every single aspect of his play is on another level. But i don't think Iniesta or Xavis passing are on another level to Messis despite them being probably the two best passer of a ball in the world.

Yeah? and? He is comparable, the only player i've ever seen who is genuinely comparable. I don't know how good Maradona was at 21 but the thought of him still being head and shoulders way way better than the Messi seems far fetched. The fact that Maradona thinks Messi could be better than him (and he's not a player without a massive ego) tells me he has a chance.

This is Maradona though, widely regarded as the greatest ever and it's no shame in messi not being as good, however he is comparable.

 

[Anderson Searl]

Messi

 

[Fortitude]

Yes? he is on another level to them as players IMO doesn't mean every single aspect of his play is on another level. But i don't think Iniesta or Xavis passing are on another level to Messis despite them being probably the two best passer of a ball in the world.

Yeah? and? He is comparable, the only player i've ever seen who is genuinely comparable. I don't know how good Maradona was at 21 but the thought of him still being head and shoulders way way better than the Messi seems far fetched. The fact that Maradona thinks Messi could be better than him (and he's not a player without a massive ego) tells me he has a chance.

This is Maradona though, widely regarded as the greatest ever and it's no shame in messi not being as good, however he is comparable.

That's enough rope.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

That's enough rope.

Mate i dont care what you think really, just say you dont think he has a chance or that you dont think he's that good or whatever it is you actually mean rather than continuing to get me to answer round about questions to justify my own beliefs.

I think Messi is currently the best player in the world, i think he is a footballing genius and i think he could go down as the best player ever or at least an all time great. That is all, you disagree? good, one more person to be proven wrong.

 

[Fortitude]

Mate i dont care what you think really, just say you dont think he has a chance or that you dont think he's that good or whatever it is you actually mean rather than continuing to get me to answer round about questions to justify my own beliefs.

I think Messi is currently the best player in the world, i think he is a footballing genius and i think he could go down as the best player ever or at least an all time great. That is all, you disagree? good, one more person to be proven wrong.

You don't even keep track of the things you say from page to page and then you get upset when called on them and loop on a completely different tangent.

You say lots of contestable things.. that you don't want contested, and then you get upset.

You can't have it both ways on a forum set up for debate and discussion.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

You don't even keep track of the things you say from page to page and then you get upset when called on them and loop on a completely different tangent.

You say lots of contestable things.. that you don't want contested, and then you get upset.

You can't have it both ways on a forum set up for debate and discussion.

well i dont really care from post to post that much. It isn't exactly a massive argument, my points havent generally changed much from the very beginning of this thread. Anyone can point out contestible opinions on a messageboard when they post 20 times or 20000 times unless you make a clear infalable argument and never lose focus and rarely go outwith what you know can't be proven against you.

Frankly that doesnt interest me and you can continue to bang on about how i contradict myself or how i say one thing and then another the next day. IT doesnt make a difference to my take on the player in mention. I say he's better than so and so and you say he isn't. That is our arguement, i think he's better than the players you mentioned or i think he will be better than some greats of the game and you dont. It matters not, if you genuinely dont think he has it to be that good then fair enough.

 

[Fortitude]

well i dont really care from post to post that much. It isn't exactly a massive argument, my points havent generally changed much from the very beginning of this thread. Anyone can point out contestible opinions on a messageboard when they post 20 times or 20000 times unless you make a clear infalable argument and never lose focus and rarely go outwith what you know can't be proven against you.

Frankly that doesnt interest me and you can continue to bang on about how i contradict myself or how i say one thing and then another the next day. IT doesnt make a difference to my take on the player in mention. I say he's better than so and so and you say he isn't. That is our arguement, i think he's better than the players you mentioned or i think he will be better than some greats of the game and you dont. It matters not, if you genuinely dont think he has it to be that good then fair enough.

So when you say absurd things they should just be ignored then?

How would you know they are absurd if it''s not pointed out to you..?

Wouldn't that make you delusional?

 

[Spoony]

can anyone ever?

I'd say he'll be as close as it can get.

Sure he's a great dribbler, but Maradona's dribbling was better and his passing ability was equally as good. And he could boss a game with his charisma. Messi doesn't really have his personality nor his passing skills(no way near). It's like comparing Robbie Savage to Bryan Robson.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

So when you say absurd things they should just be ignored then?

How would you know they are absurd if it''s not pointed out to you..?

Wouldn't that make you delusional?

We're not having a political or philosophical debate here, we are talking about football. People can and do change there opinions, i'm sure you are itching to bring up every times ive said something against what i've already said so you can feel free and dig up all the old idiotic posts i've made if it makes you feel better Fortitude or continue to ask vague and pointless questions in order to get people to make further contradictions. Quite a talent you have.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Two world class players with the best passing ability on the planet right now....

Which puts what you have been seeing for eons in this thread into some perspective. Messi is not the super man you suggest he is. Yet.

One is at the very peak of his powers and the other has proven to be one of the most talented players around. Iniesta is a gem of a player no doubt. I don't remember him being the unplayable force he is now a few years ago

That is because you never took a shine to him liek you did to Messi. Iniseta has been this good for years. More folk are just begining to notice. He is one of the reasons Fabregas ended up at Arsenal. He didn't fancy a fight with that one for game time.

and i would expect Messi to improve on aspects of his game, you don't think he can or will improve despite him being 21.

Wrong. I belive he wont imporve by much. Because of the type of play he is. A dribbling maestro who is basically mature. Mature in his understanding and application of the game and his own skills. Always playing to his strengths. Mostly making all the right intelligent football decisions at such a young age.

You have this idea that he will develope extra facets to his game that he doesnt have now. Like being good in the air etc. Master long range passing and the like


I dont because he is already super mature for the type of player he is and has already shown he puts value in always playing to his strengths, as evidenced by his performances. Thus I have little doubt he will simply gather more experience to do continually what he does best. To master his strengths and make them unplayable as he grows older. At his age player like Ronaldinho or Zidane couldn't ran games. But the potential was there. Messi currently runs game. At 25 he will ran games in a similar fashion and more devastatingly than Ronaldinho and pssibly Zidane ever did. Simply because he will be better aware of the options for him to pick out on a pitch. & would have mastered his strengths to execute these options best. Not due to any significant improvement on the skills he posseses today.

 

[Spoony]

Which puts what you have been seeing for eons in this thread into some perspective. Messi is not the super man you suggest he is. Yet.

That is because you never took a shine to him liek you did to Messi. Iniseta has been this good for years. More folk are just begining to notice. He is one of the reasons Fabregas ended up at Arsenal. He didn't fancy a fight with that one for game time.

Wrong. I belive he wont imporve by much. Because of the type of play he is. A dribbling maestro who is basically mature. Mature in his understanding and application of the game and his own skills. Always playing to his strengths. Mostly making all the right intelligent football decisions at such a young age.

You have this idea that he will develope extra facets to his game that he doesnt have now. Like being good in the air etc. Master long range passing and the like


I dont because he is already super mature for the type of player he is and has already shown he puts value in always playing to his strengths, as evidenced by his performances. Thus I have little doubt he will simply gather more experience to do continually what he does best. To master his strengths and make them unplayable as he grows older. At his age player like Ronaldinho or Zidane couldn't ran games. But the potential was there. Messi currently runs game. At 25 he will ran games in a similar fashion and more devastatingly than Ronaldinho and pssibly Zidane ever did. Simply because he will be better aware of the options for him to pick out on a pitch. & would have mastered his strengths to execute these options best. Not due to any significant improvement on the skills he posseses today.

So, bascially he won't improve, but he will improve?

That's not an April Fools is it?

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Sure he's a great dribbler, but Maradona was better and his passing ability was equally as good. And he could boss a game with his charisma. Messi doesn't really have his personality nor his passing skills(no way near). It's like comparing Robbie Savage to Bryan Robson.

Plenty of time to improve his passing, i dont buy this Maradona was the ultimate at 21 stuff. If he was that good why didn't they cream the world cup in the 82 world cup?

I think it is far easier to remember players with rose tinted specs than appreciate what we see in the modern game. I don't doubt Maradonas brilliance, i'd have him as the greatest player of all time and have seen enough and read enough to pretty much confirm that.

If Maradona is out on his own then who would you say Messi is genuinely comparable with if not maradona. Cruyff?

 

[Spoony]

Plenty of time to improve his passing, i dont buy this Maradona was the ultimate at 21 stuff. If he was that good why didn't they cream the world cup in the 82 world cup?

I think it is far easier to remember players with rose tinted specs than appreciate what we see in the modern game. I don't doubt Maradonas brilliance, i'd have him as the greatest player of all time and have seen enough and read enough to pretty much confirm that.

If Maradona is out on his own then who would you say Messi is genuinely comparable with if not maradona. Cruyff?

because he was kicked out of the world cup much like Pele in 66. I watched it, so i should know. And he had those abilities back then as well. Even at that age he was the best player in the world. Now, let's put this in to perspective, Platini was at his peak during that time. You've got great players. . .and then you've Maradona. As I said, you may as well be comparing Savage to Robbo.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

because he was kicked out of the world cup much like Pele in 66. I watched it, so i should know. And he had those abilities back then as well. Even at that age he was the best player in the world. Now, let's put this in to perspective, Platini was at his peak during that time. You've got great players. . .and then you've got Maradona. As I said, you may as well be comparing Savage to Robbo.

So if hypothetically Messi tears up south africa in 2010 at the same age Maradona was in 82 it still wouldnt budge your convictions that comparing Messi to Maradona would be like comparing Savage to Robbo?

 

[Spoony]

So if hypothetically Messi tears up south africa in 2010 at the same age Maradona was in 82 it still wouldnt budge your convictions that comparing Messi to Maradona would be like comparing Savage to Robbo?

If if if if if if.

Messi will be 23 next world cup. Not exactly the same age. But he'll have a good WC. As he should, he IS a fantastic player, no one is denying that. And I have no idea why you're hell bent in trying to look silly with these Maradona comparisons.

How old are you Mr Vulgar? If you're old enough to remember Diego, you'll know where I'm coming from.

 

[MaroonPondlife]

good on you frankly vulgar ... I'm with you on this one.

watched a lot of football over the last 30 yrs and nobody excites me as much as this kid. everybody wants to see him play ... hmmm, I wonder why.

- his dribbling is second to none.
- his short passing game is up there with the very best - I wouldn't necessarily say there was any better.
- his finishing is xcellent.

without him barcelona would be ordinary.
without him football would be ordinary. I don't rember thinking that when platini played, when rivaldo played, when the brazilian ronaldo played, when zidane played. Maradona was a different beast mind, though I didn't see him every week.

messi' skill - beating the man, is the hardest in football, and he does it with consumate ease ... time & time again.

 

[kouroux]

Barca were a big club before Messi and will be after him.Your post is ridiculous

 

[B Cantona]

no one is denying that

You sure about that?

I'm bored of reading how Messi "needs to improve" or is "overated"

It's all bullshit. The guys a brilliant player, I love to watch him even if it is sadly for another teams colours. But let's be frank about this. If the guy retired tomorrow, we'd remember him for being a brilliant player, and he's no age

The comparisons to Maradona are only fair at the end of his career. You have to give him the chance to achieve the same things or better! But the point is that he IS being compared, and that's fair, because he's that good. No one else in the game since Maradona has been worthy of that, but this lad is

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So, bascially he won't improve, but he will improve?

That's not an April Fools is it?

Rather he wont be adding any extra skills to what he has now. He will just master his current ones. Which will make him even more special than he is now. He is as mature a player skill wise as anyone of his type will get. All he lacks is experience. Nothing else.