I do think you slightly underrate Messi, but on the whole you make a good point and others seem to be in agreement with you about Maradona so I'll trust you on that one.
Lionel Messi
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I agree with your consistency point.
I wouldn't nor have I heard anyone else say he's better than Maradona. Let the lad have his career before we start trying to place them in history together anyway. Personally, I think he's the first player since Maradona who threatens to be of that level of class. The best player I have ever seen (I've seen Maradona in an exhibition match, not quite the same!)
But when you've saying stuff like 'if you take away his dribbling', you're talking nonsense. He has his dribbling, and he's absolutely incredible at it. Players can't take the ball off him without fouling, you can't be much better than that at it really can you? And you criminally underate the rest of his game anyway. As someone else has said, his passing and final ball is also exceptional, the number of chances he lays on at Barca, its incredible they don't score more given the quality of striker they have getting on the end of them
I think you can say he's not as good as Maradona without trying to put him down in any way
I get it - you're a Messi fan. I don't know how old you are, but am I right to assume he's the first player of such talent you've witnessed with your own eyes in real time, i.e living the moments of his career with everyone else?
You get rather jaded to the new pretenders to the throne after a bit and a lot more cynical, well, I have anyway. And the moment people start giving Messi an almost false prophet status, it feels like a compulsion to speak out.
You say taking away his dribbling is a nonsense, but don't consider that it is a very real possibility that he has a huge injury that forces him to change his game like many top, top players have had to do in the past. What if that happens? Do we just act as if it didn't happen? Do we put Messi in an untouchable bubble of what he once was, rather than what he then is?
The point I made was that even after other players had potential career-threatening injuries, they had enough facets of their game to fall-back on and modify how they played to get by. Do you think Messi has that in him? You didn't actually answer me the first time round.
His game as it is now isn't enough for him to get to the very top of the tree historically, in my opinion. He'll have to develop other facets of his game, if he can, to be something close to how good he is at carrying the ball.
Messi's final ball is not exceptional. He isn't on par with a Riquelme or Scholes etc in this aspect of his game. By the way, how can I 'criminally underrate' a player I think is quite fantastic given what's out there in the game at this moment in time?
Is it because I have an objective opinion of him that you find egregious, or what? For the record, pointing out what a player is or is not doesn't mean you're belittling them or their game!
Messi's career has been blighted by injury and physical issues, says something that despite all that, he's still as good as he is
The thing I find 'egregious' is that you don't give an objective opinion, and yet you claim to be. I'm no Messi 'fan boy', I simply happen to think he's the best player in the game today. I watch a lot of Spanish football, so I see a lot of him. And a lot of what you say about him is garbage, all I'm doing is pointing that out
You really are incapable of discussion without getting emotional, aren't you?
I'll leave you to it then, Brad, beings as you get upset so quickly, and still don't answer what's asked of you.
What facets in Messi's game lack? He can basically do anything with a football.
Nah, he's pretty much spot on. As for players that have reached a highler level. Fat Ronaldo pre 98 was an awesome sight. I'd say he almost broke into the Maradona/Pele bracket. He really was that good. Messi's great, and probably the most talented player in the world, but he's not as good as Pele, Maradona and Ronaldo were at his age.
You really are incapable of discussion without getting emoitonal, aren't you?
I'll leave you to it then, Brad, beings as you get upset so quickly, and still don't answer what's asked of you.
Who's getting emotional
Don't confuse you talking some nonsense about Messi's game with me getting upset and emotional!
Who's getting emotional
Don't confuse you talking some nonsense about Messi's game with me getting upset and emotional!
Your tone says it for you, unless you practice being that way every time you're in a decent discussion.
Sounds more like you're reading something into my tone that isn't there...
So anyone who dares to challenge your assertions is emotional and not worthy of decent debate?
Check this out Brad. I was lucky enough to have seen him at his peak. He clearly wasn't human. And there's no passing in this clip - his passing was as good as his dribbling! Strong as an ox he was.
i know how you feel brad...but it never would have worked out.
You do realise you didn't actually challenge anything, right? You just sounded upset and started crying about 'nonsense this or that' without replying to what I asked with a shitty, unnecessary tone.
Brilliant.
Here's a video of his passing:
From the amount of times players missed the shot or miscontrolled the ball it looks as if Maradona was playing with a bunch of spastics.
Which I'm sure he wasn't.
He's not challenging anything because really he can't in this case, since he's never really seen Maradona play so it would be an extremely stupid argument.
The bold part I don't agree with. I'm old enough to have watched Maradona, and Messi is most certainly 'close' as far as dribbling skills go. He isn't as strong, and as far as passing, bottle etc goes I agree with you. But Messi's close control is certainly in Maradona's league, perhaps even better.
Incredible player Spoons. That's why I personally consider him to be the greatest ever footballer
Much of the things we recognise Maradona for now, he certainly hadn't achieved by the age Messi is now. He was still at Boca, and was yet to play in a World Cup. I just find it odd that people try to 'beat him' with the stick of not being as good as Maradona! Who the feck is! Perhaps he'll go on to be that good, give the lad a chance he's only 21, many players are barely breaking their first teams by that age. Messi has been the best player at Barca for several years now. They've got some fecking exceptional players there, and he outshines them all week in week out
At the end of the day, you can only be 'so good' at football. If you're beating your man virtually every time, it doesn't matter whether someone else is beating their man 'better'. No-one can get near Messi, just like no-one could get near Maradona. It's then what you do with it, and Messi aint exactly shoddy in that respect either. And then its about how influential you can be, and whether you can step up on the big occasion, and if need be carry inferior or underperforming team mates to success. Maradona's career is over, and he did all of that with flying colours. Let's enjoy Messi, and see if he can't have a similar career of his own
Who hasn't seen Maradona play? This is something I find funny actually. People well say 'ah, I saw him play at OT, he was the best I've ever seen'. So they base their judgement on what, one performance?
I grew up at a time when Maradona was universally accepted as the best player in the world. He was in the last few years playing for Napoli when my awareness of football is memorable today
In truth, people judge players on the big occasion. And that big occasion is usually the World Cup. That's why we consider Pele and Maradona to be the best, because not only were they brilliant for their club sides, but they were the best at international level too, and when it matters most. And most people make that judgement off what they see on TV. And it doesn't matter if you're watching a match live, or if its a re-run. So there's no reason whatsoever that someone born today can't have an opinion on the greatest footballer of all time, when there is source material to help them make up their own minds
I'm sure you've seen plenty of it but you said already that all you really saw was him 'in an exhibition match, not quite the same!', so I was just saying that it'd be stupid of you to get into an argument with someone who has seen far more of Maradona and that's why you weren't.
Wow, I'm shocked you'd say this if you've seen them both. There's a gap between them in every aspect, for me. And I'm not using rose-tints to say that. You should bear in mind Maradona was getting hacked and fouled during his runs and oftentimes was actually felled but because his centre of gravity was so low he could pick himself up off the floor in a sort of semi-stumble and carry on the play (like you see in Spoony's vid, come to think of it). To carry the ball whilst under such intense pressure and then have the temerity to use it with end-product is something else.
Messi plays in a clean era where he has protection and not many players hack at him as he goes on a run. It's easier to do that than play when your centre of gravity is continually disrupted by nasty hacks like Maradona's was.
Also, Maradona's runs were more unpredictable and/or direct when he wanted them to be.
Live, that's all I saw of him yes. I was quite clear about that
I guess we should ask Fortitude how many times he's seen Maradona live then? And then we should ask what that should matter, because it's likely to only be a couple or so times, unless he was a regular Napoli supporter, in which case how can you decide any better than others who the best player was? And how are you any more qualified to say he was better than say Pele, if you hadn't seen him live...
These discussions are all about opinions. Of course you can have more justified and well argued opinions than others. What I don't like is people being sniffy, and thinking that in some way because they've seen a player live once or twice, that makes their opinion right, and other peoples inferior. Perhaps no-one is doing that here, but its certainly something you come across a lot
That's ironic since you're the only one calling other opinions nonsense and garbage, Brad.
Come on, man, be a tad rational!
Nah I don't think that's what's going on here at all.
I just assumed you hadn't seen him all that much seeing as you were around 10 by the time Maradona was already on the decline, and that would give you much less of a chance to see him play. And by that I don't just mean live, but on TV as well.
Well when you're making statements like "I've watched Messi all season, yes. I think he's very, very gifted, but his game isn't all-encompassing like Del Piero's was at the same age" and "You take away Messi's dribbling and you're not left with much", then yes, I'm rationally telling you that opinion is garbage!!!
You can't 'take away' a particular ability of a player, it's a nonsense concept. They have that ability, it's a part of his game, and he's absolutely exceptional at it. No other player in the world can dribble the ball like he can right now. Is the rest of his game mediocre, like you claim? Of course not, or he wouldn't score so many goals or create as many assists as he does, never mind the many chances he creates that go unconverted
I think Messi's a fantastic dribbler but watching that Maradona video...wow...that guy was something else. I've always said he was the greatest and that's just from youtube videos I've seen of him and a VHS I got when I was about 8 about him!
It's amazing what interpretation does for a post, isn't it.
At no point did I say anything about 'mediocre' but you know that and are being rather obtuse to make your point.
It's amazing what interpretation does for a post, isn't it.
At no point did I say anything about 'mediocre' but you know that and are being rather obtuse to make your point.
Apologies for interpreting 'you're not left with much' as 'mediocre'. I obviously got the wrong end of the stick, and you were praising the rest of his game...
You have your context mixed up. Messi is clearly one of the very best players active - I never said anything to the contrary. Messi not being left with much to become a true great without is dribbling is more than fair comment.
He'll have to be extremely fortunate with injuries if his game is so reliant on dribbling and acceleration.
There's far more to his game than dribbling and acceleration, far more.
Don't compare him to Maradona and just take him for the player he is and you'll see that for yourself.
Don't compare him to Maradona and just take him for the player he is and you'll see that for yourself.
Messi and Ronaldo in the same team, switching sides all game and taking the piss out the opposition
That would be awesome, there really wouldn't be any need for the rest of the attackers in the team. Messi taking them apart on the ball and Ronaldo doing all of the damage off the ball.
Messi and Ronaldo in the same team, switching sides all game and taking the piss out the opposition
It'd be a dream...
Just as long as they were both lining up in United shirts that is!
I can imagine them both playing for Liverpool but Benitez rotates them every week or inexplicably drops Messi for Benayoun.
That's when Pennant is injured right?
Thing is Brad, Maradona was the best player in the world at the age of 20-21(he didn't play in any WC, yet even then he was regarded as the BPITW). When you take into consideration some of the other players that were around during the early 80's, it really says something. Zico(top 5 Brazilian of all time, Platini(possibly better than Zidane), Rummenige, Socrates etc. There really were some brilliant players around, yet he was a cut above them. Yes, Messi's fantastic, and I'd give my left testicle to see him play for United, but he'll never be half the player Maradona was. Forget the passing, but I'm talking about strength, guts, determination. . .remember he played during a time when Gentile and his ilk were defenders. These lot didn't feck around, they hacked players down. Messi and Ronaldo play in an era in which football is a non contact sport. He didn't. If you combine Messi with Tevez and chuck in Zidane's passing ability for good measure, then you'd get Maradona. That almost sounds hyperbolic, but he really was THAT good.
Ability wise he was up there with Fat Ronaldo...the only difference being Barca broke the world record to grab him from PSV and hence unleashed him in full flow, played him regularly not bothered to protect or groom him.
As for Messi he was as electrifying as Ronaldo when he was played in bits and parts as Rijkaard was using him sparingly in the 04/06 even when he had already made the grade. After Barca thumped Bayern and Juventus in the preseason with Messi running the show both Capello and Hitzfeld gave him the green flag, tipped him to an all time great.
Fat Ronaldo was all about frightening pace and finishing, as for Messi he had the pace but not a natural goal scorer to occupy a place in news reels or highlights but his temparament, reading the game were brilliant apart from the obvious skill - the manner he was gliding with the ball.
I'm as aware of Messi's game as anyone can be as I followed him even before he was famous as a Barca player. His YWC performance was absolutely stunning.
But, if he's going to be mentioned as 'potential greatest ever' he'll be compared as such.
The basis of his game completely revolves around acceleration and his dribbling. The rest of his game isn't of the same standard as his dribbling is, which is different to how Fat Ron or Maradona were, which goes back to my point about how they were able to perform into their 30's when the pace was stripped away and the dribbling was infrequent.
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