Lionel Messi

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Fortitude said:
I'm as aware of Messi's game as anyone can be as I followed him even before he was famous as a Barca player. His YWC performance was absolutely stunning.

But, if he's going to be mentioned as 'potential greatest ever' he'll be compared as such.

The basis of his game completely revolves around acceleration and his dribbling. The rest of his game isn't of the same standard as his dribbling is, which is different to how Fat Ron or Maradona were, which goes back to my point about how they were able to perform into their 30's when the pace was stripped away and the dribbling was infrequent.
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They were able to perform right up until then because they could adapt their games, Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

And I think we've all established the idea of comparing him with the best ever yet is clearly outrageous. Which is why I said in my first post:

Brwned said:
I doubt it.

He could be but I don't think he will.
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Brwned said:
They were able to perform right up until then because they could adapt their games, Messi hasn't had to do that yet.

And I think we've all established the idea of comparing him with the best ever yet is clearly outrageous. Which is why I said in my first post:
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I was simply replying to your post. :)
 
Fortitude said:
I'm as aware of Messi's game as anyone can be as I followed him even before he was famous as a Barca player. His YWC performance was absolutely stunning.

But, if he's going to be mentioned as 'potential greatest ever' he'll be compared as such.

The basis of his game completely revolves around acceleration and his dribbling. The rest of his game isn't of the same standard as his dribbling is, which is different to how Fat Ron or Maradona were, which goes back to my point about how they were able to perform into their 30's when the pace was stripped away and the dribbling was infrequent.
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Fat Ronaldo and Maradona were different kind of dribblers.

Zidane, Ronaldinho type dribblers, can move the ball skillfully, with turns and stepovers tying the defence in to knots.

Fat Ronaldo and Giggs also Messi..use their pace to blow their way past the defenders. On dribbling they keep the ball in motion using soft deft touches to accelerate.

Maradona, Best and Pele were at a different level they can do either kinda dribbling with ease, be it some cool tricks or blowing away the markers with pace as if they were non existent. Also Maradona can shield the ball brilliantly its very difficult to shove him off the ball even when hacked down by three or four men. It was for the reason he was still a formidable player even after he lost his pace.
 


My first memories of football was the 82 WC although I couldn't grasp anything out of the tourney. This player was my favourite footballer when I grew up, better than Zidane and Fat Ronaldo and had he played around these days he would've got a better recognition.

Ronaldo fans wanking over youtube compliations should bother having a look at him. Our Ronaldo is not even 30 or 40 percent good as him, forget about a comparision with Best.
 
vijay said:


My first memories of football was the 82 WC although I couldn't grasp anything out of the tourney. This player was my favourite footballer when I grew up, better than Zidane and Fat Ronaldo and had he played around these days he would've got a better recognition.

Ronaldo fans wanking over youtube compliations should bother having a look at him. Our Ronaldo is not even 30 or 40 percent good as him, forget about a comparision with Best.
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Fixed.

I've heard a lot about him but never seen him play before.

Different player to what I first thought he was, I thought he was just a playmaker who sits back and dictate the tempo of the game.
 
Brwned said:
Fixed.

I've heard a lot about him but never seen him play before.

Different player to what I first thought he was, I thought he was just a playmaker who sits back and dictate the tempo of the game.
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He can do everything, dictate the pace, dribble, create and score unlike modern day footballers he dosent need selective highlights for the sake of glorifying him.
 
I only really saw the tail end of Baggios career live but even then i loved the guy. And i understand the points made about how he didn't need to be fast or strong and over reliant on one part of his game because of how good he was.

Baggio was a genius on the park. As a kid he had some really serious injury and people questioned if he would ever play at the highest level but you cannot avoid brilliance and he was just that.

I just read an interview with Baggio. He comments on a number of things and when asked who he was excited about in modern football he answered this.

"Messi, for example. I see something of me in him. When he has the ball you always have the impression that something might happen. Also Ronaldinho, of course. Kaka, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ibra, Totti: all great players, but I don’t like ratings, it would feel like showing them disrespect".

full interview is here if anyone wants to read it, good stuff from the great man.

http://www.italia-online.co.uk/article.php/Roberto_Baggio
 
vijay said:


My first memories of football was the 82 WC although I couldn't grasp anything out of the tourney. This player was my favourite footballer when I grew up, better than Zidane and Fat Ronaldo and had he played around these days he would've got a better recognition.

Ronaldo fans wanking over youtube compliations should bother having a look at him. Our Ronaldo is not even 30 or 40 percent good as him, forget about a comparision with Best.
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Bit harsh different type of player!! Watching him just reminds me of my idol Romario... now he was a striker!
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Messi has already done things that Ronaldo will never do. FACT.

Your only argument is that he's been injured alot. That is the only reason he hasn't done it for a peroid of time, if he stays injury free for one full season you'll see.
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Making my point for me. The time to start threads like this is after he does it for a full season

GusHiddink said:
List them please... ill start you off...

- play for argentina
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FranklyVulgar said:
Runner up in a major international tournament (copa america). Young player of the tournament award.

He won the youth world cup being awarded golden ball and player of the tournament.
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Makki said:
Do the Euros count? Where a 19 year old Ronaldo led his Portugal to the final where they lost against Greece?


And I think we can all agree that Portugal isn't nowhere near as big a footballing nation as Argentina, so the comparison isn't exactly fair even then, but alright.
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:lol: embarassing frank. Argentina or portugal who havent had a decent forward since.....

FranklyVulgar said:
Oh yeah i forgot about that. Still he wasn't named young player of the tournament. And i think it was more Rui Costa and Figo that led them as well as the home team factor...
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Makki said:
Because there wasn't a young player of the tournament award given, at least not according to wiki where I checked. He was, however, selected in the team of the tournament.
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Frank ive only just review this thread and you continue to embarass yourself which makes me laugh. :o :lol:
 
Brwned said:
Brilliant.

Here's a video of his passing:



From the amount of times players missed the shot or miscontrolled the ball it looks as if Maradona was playing with a bunch of spastics.

Which I'm sure he wasn't.
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That turn/spin at 1:54. Straight out of Fifa Soccer. Incredible.
 
Fortitude said:
Messi isn't 'even' close to being as good a dribbler, and that's before you add on Maradona's passing, bottle, character and leadership as well as his drive, which, combined with the player he was, marks him as something more than just a player of great and obvious talent.

He had the heart of a Roy Keane with the skill of, well, Maradona. It'll take more than just ability to get near him, and even then, finding a player with that ability in the first place is nigh on impossible. It's certainly not in Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo.
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you're talking about Maradona at his peak though. He was good in spain, but not quite the unstoppable force he became later on. And he struggled when he first came to Italy.

Messi doesn't have those qualities at this point, but Maradona didn't always have them either.

I don't think he will ever match diego's passing and vision, but dribblingwise I think he's comparable. And he certainly has that tenacity and drive to do great things as Maradona did.
 
B9 from YAWN said:
you're talking about Maradona at his peak though. He was good in spain, but not quite the unstoppable force he became later on. And he struggled when he first came to Italy.

Messi doesn't have those qualities at this point, but Maradona didn't always have them either.

I don't think he will ever match diego's passing and vision, but dribblingwise I think he's comparable. And he certainly has that tenacity and drive to do great things as Maradona did.
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Did you see alot of Maradona when he was at Barca?
 
Mainoldo said:
Why are we so obseased with his dribbling, i love the fact that i can get to see him dribble, but it's no better than Giggs, Maradona or Robben for instance!
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Robben and giggs are just not in the same league as the midget argentinians when it comes to dribbling.

Neither was del piero as a player. Phenomenal player and certainly one of the most wellrounded and complete attacking players you would find, but he simply never had that extra x-factor to take him from being one of the best in the world to one of the alltime. Messi does, as did Ronaldo, Romario, Zidane and Ronaldinho in recent years.

Placcy, Figo, Rivaldo, Shevchenko, Nedved, Henry might have been the best players in the world at one point or another but they also didn't have that extra bit of magic to be remembered with the same reverence.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
He's a muppet.

And a cnut.

Them two combined makes it impossible to be a good poster.
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Charmed cnut charmed.

But seriously i cant be the only one fustrated by this. On one hand we have messi who to date has shown flashes of his obvious brilliance in about 5 game spurts and on the other we have someone who has achieved a superhumanly high level of performance for about 2/3 years now hardly missing a game. It just staggers me. So easy to say aye messi will be this or that but as it stands if anyone deserves to be talked about as potentially the best player of his generation its ronaldo.

If messi actually manages a season and barce bring in some silverware domestically and/or abroad then perhaps we can start saying yep is he getting to that level. He has it all to do.

How could it even be a contest to see who won world player of the year?? Some right idiots were tipping messi...erm for what?? Its typical of the bias towards him (and kaka when he was flavour of the month) and the reluctance to give ronnie the respect he deserves.

I remember kaka destroying the 'united back line' and people piping up and saying it was a joke ronaldo was ever compared to him. Ridiculous statement. And as i said at the time had you swapped ronnie and kaka over the two legs milan would have benefited. ronnie would have had a field day with our defence (and approach) in the tie.

Im ranting now so ill stop, but long story short lets get a grip here cos its just these sort of threads that are stopping my enjoyment of a fabulous player.

Fortitude said:
I mentioned him in relation to Messi and Cristiano and also in terms of being a phenomenon at a young age.

Zidane never in his career matched Del Piero's consistency pre-injury, btw.
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Del boy was imperious pre injury... i remember those days well...amazing.

BUT i dont think i can agree with this statement.
 
Ronaldo does things Messi can't do, and vice versa.

The two best players of their generation, and probably the two best players in the world at the moment and for the last year or so.

One is also a cnut.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Ronaldo does things Messi can't do, and vice versa.

The two best players of their generation, and probably the two best players in the world at the moment and for the last year or so.

One is also a cnut.
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Myth. You been on you tube again cnut?? How many times i have to tell ya? you tube does not represent 90mins of football.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Been on youporn, not on youtube for a good while.
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Educated reply again cnut i thank you. GOODBYE

"Someone asked me on French TV what the difference is between Leo Messi and Ronaldo and I said the goals. Messi is a good dribbler in tight spaces but Ronaldo is good in the air, he is good on free-kicks, he can score right foot, left foot and he is a great player.

"Another quality Ronaldo has is that he is healthy. He doesn't miss games.

"You compare him to Messi and Rooney in the last two years and he has missed fewer games.

He can take the kicks. ":cool:
 
vijay said:
Fat Ronaldo and Giggs also Messi..use their pace to blow their way past the defenders. On dribbling they keep the ball in motion using soft deft touches to accelerate.
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Not quite. Moreso than pace, they have/had close control that allows them to run with the ball at speed very close to feet and change direction at will. Actually, this kinda dribbling is more efficient without pace than fancy flicks and the like, as it works in tighter spaces (this is where the likes of like messi and del piero shine compared to many other dribblers).
 
GusHiddink said:
Educated reply again cnut i thank you. GOODBYE

"Someone asked me on French TV what the difference is between Leo Messi and Ronaldo and I said the goals. Messi is a good dribbler in tight spaces but Ronaldo is good in the air, he is good on free-kicks, he can score right foot, left foot and he is a great player.

"Another quality Ronaldo has is that he is healthy. He doesn't miss games.

"You compare him to Messi and Rooney in the last two years and he has missed fewer games.

He can take the kicks. ":cool:
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Goodbye.

Hope you are gone for a while.
 
GusHiddink said:
Charmed cnut charmed.

But seriously i cant be the only one fustrated by this. On one hand we have messi who to date has shown flashes of his obvious brilliance in about 5 game spurts and on the other we have someone who has achieved a superhumanly high level of performance for about 2/3 years now hardly missing a game. It just staggers me. So easy to say aye messi will be this or that but as it stands if anyone deserves to be talked about as potentially the best player of his generation its ronaldo.

If messi actually manages a season and barce bring in some silverware domestically and/or abroad then perhaps we can start saying yep is he getting to that level. He has it all to do.

How could it even be a contest to see who won world player of the year?? Some right idiots were tipping messi...erm for what?? Its typical of the bias towards him (and kaka when he was flavour of the month) and the reluctance to give ronnie the respect he deserves.

I remember kaka destroying the 'united back line' and people piping up and saying it was a joke ronaldo was ever compared to him. Ridiculous statement. And as i said at the time had you swapped ronnie and kaka over the two legs milan would have benefited. ronnie would have had a field day with our defence (and approach) in the tie.

Im ranting now so ill stop, but long story short lets get a grip here cos its just these sort of threads that are stopping my enjoyment of a fabulous player.

BUT i dont think i can agree with this statement.
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I agree with you as much as i like Messi i can't get to terms why people will easily say his the best when C.R proves at a higher level and has done so for a couple years. Messi gets a lot of votes on reputation that aren't backed up like when he came second last year in the world player of the year awards when he only played what 2months of football?!!
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Did you see alot of Maradona when he was at Barca?
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Not then, but plenty since on vids. He's my favourite player ever.

he also wasn't all that for Sevilla either. For me, he's the best player I've ever seen but he actually gets unfairly bigged up by some here.

Ronaldo is the best striker I've ever seen, but even he gets overrated by some here. He floated in and out of games too much and certainly at barca he was much too direct in his play. Romario for example was in a different league when it came to participating in the buildup as a centre forward.
 
B9 from YAWN said:
Not quite. Moreso than pace, they have/had close control that allows them to run with the ball at speed very close to feet and change direction at will. Actually, this kinda dribbling is more efficient without pace than fancy flicks and the like, as it works in tighter spaces (this is where the likes of like messi and del piero shine compared to many other dribblers).
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It's more effective with pass though! Big Ron was more explosive than anything else anyway, wouldn't say he was the best dribbler in the world!!
 
Mainoldo said:
I agree with you as much as i like Messi i can't get to terms why people will easily say his the best when C.R proves at a higher level and has done so for a couple years. Messi gets a lot of votes on reputation that aren't backed up like when he came second last year in the world player of the year awards when he only played what 2months of football?!!
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At last!!! i thought i was going mad. Its crazy.
 
GusHiddink said:
Charmed cnut charmed.

But seriously i cant be the only one fustrated by this. On one hand we have messi who to date has shown flashes of his obvious brilliance in about 5 game spurts and on the other we have someone who has achieved a superhumanly high level of performance for about 2/3 years now hardly missing a game. It just staggers me. So easy to say aye messi will be this or that but as it stands if anyone deserves to be talked about as potentially the best player of his generation its ronaldo.

If messi actually manages a season and barce bring in some silverware domestically and/or abroad then perhaps we can start saying yep is he getting to that level. He has it all to do.

How could it even be a contest to see who won world player of the year?? Some right idiots were tipping messi...erm for what?? Its typical of the bias towards him (and kaka when he was flavour of the month) and the reluctance to give ronnie the respect he deserves.

I remember kaka destroying the 'united back line' and people piping up and saying it was a joke ronaldo was ever compared to him. Ridiculous statement. And as i said at the time had you swapped ronnie and kaka over the two legs milan would have benefited. ronnie would have had a field day with our defence (and approach) in the tie.

Im ranting now so ill stop, but long story short lets get a grip here cos its just these sort of threads that are stopping my enjoyment of a fabulous player.




Del boy was imperious pre injury... i remember those days well...amazing.

BUT i dont think i can agree with this statement.
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This sort of thing is why you are so wrong.

http://www.skysports.com/experts/expert_story/0,19793,12087_2805984,00.html

You talk about Messi like he does nothing for months and then plays well for 5 games and everyone goes hysterical. I've watched all but the first 2 of barcelonas games this season and he's been a top performer every time.

Read that article about his form and tell me how a player who plays in 5 game spurts can do that?

I don't expect you to have ever or to ever watch more than 2 consecutive messi performances let alone enough for you to ever justify his standing in world football so it's pointless continuing to debate it.
 
GusHiddink said:
Educated reply again cnut i thank you. GOODBYE

"Someone asked me on French TV what the difference is between Leo Messi and Ronaldo and I said the goals. Messi is a good dribbler in tight spaces but Ronaldo is good in the air, he is good on free-kicks, he can score right foot, left foot and he is a great player.

"Another quality Ronaldo has is that he is healthy. He doesn't miss games.

"You compare him to Messi and Rooney in the last two years and he has missed fewer games.

He can take the kicks. ":cool:
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That's a ridiculious thing to say, as if you have a special training in order to avoid injuries . You might he's physically better than Messi but it's not a quality to "not be injury" ,it's just a fact. Tomorrow Ronaldo could break his leg and what would you say then ?
 
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