I know you shouldn't care either, nothing wrong with saying what you got to say!!
It was the comment about him doing things Ronaldo can never do, that made me vex, because personally i don't agree!
Lionel Messi
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I know you shouldn't care either, nothing wrong with saying what you got to say!!
It was the comment about him doing things Ronaldo can never do, that made me vex, because personally i don't agree!
What is the obsession with 'best ever' monikers on here?
Neither Messi or Ronaldo will ever be the best ever. Frankly, neither has the ability. And when you're talking about Maradona and Pele, that's by no means an insult.
There can't be a single person who saw Maradona play who thinks either of these will get near him, surely?
Messi isn't 'even' close to being as good a dribbler, and that's before you add on Maradona's passing, bottle, character and leadership as well as his drive, which, combined with the player he was, marks him as something more than just a player of great and obvious talent.
He had the heart of a Roy Keane with the skill of, well, Maradona. It'll take more than just ability to get near him, and even then, finding a player with that ability in the first place is nigh on impossible. It's certainly not in Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo.
But if people do insist on comparing to such players, it'll always end in tears. Or in this case, multiple pages of nothing in particular.
Oh, and I think both Messi and Cristiano are very good young players, but threads like these cause them to be chided to make clear they aren't worthy of such hyperbole in the big scale of things.
For either of these two to break into the top 20 would be an incredible feat, let alone top 5, or top 1/2
Neither Messi or Ronaldo will ever be the best ever. Frankly, neither has the ability. And when you're talking about Maradona and Pele, that's by no means an insult.
There can't be a single person who saw Maradona play who thinks either of these will get near him, surely?
Messi isn't 'even' close to being as good a dribbler, and that's before you add on Maradona's passing, bottle, character and leadership as well as his drive, which, combined with the player he was, marks him as something more than just a player of great and obvious talent.
He had the heart of a Roy Keane with the skill of, well, Maradona. It'll take more than just ability to get near him, and even then, finding a player with that ability in the first place is nigh on impossible. It's certainly not in Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo.
But if people do insist on comparing to such players, it'll always end in tears. Or in this case, multiple pages of nothing in particular.
Oh, and I think both Messi and Cristiano are very good young players, but threads like these cause them to be chided to make clear they aren't worthy of such hyperbole in the big scale of things.
For either of these two to break into the top 20 would be an incredible feat, let alone top 5, or top 1/2
I don't think it is that unreasonable.
Someday a player will come along with special qualities that allow him to be spoke of in the same breath as the all time greats of the game. I mean it really must happen at some point and as far as i can tell Messi has as good a chance as any.
Messi could win the world cup as Argentina captain, also he could win the ballon d'or a whole load of times. Copa America, Champions league and all the while with his own brand of football, the same style he will always have.
It is a long way off and i understand your points Fortitude but i don't think it's impossible.
Someday a player will come along with special qualities that allow him to be spoke of in the same breath as the all time greats of the game. I mean it really must happen at some point and as far as i can tell Messi has as good a chance as any.
Messi could win the world cup as Argentina captain, also he could win the ballon d'or a whole load of times. Copa America, Champions league and all the while with his own brand of football, the same style he will always have.
It is a long way off and i understand your points Fortitude but i don't think it's impossible.
Perhaps some day, but that's not with these two. The last player who had what it took to get near them (Pele & Maradona) was Ronaldo and he got fecked by injuries.
It'll take someone who is literally a phenomenon to come along with peerless ability in numerous facets of the game.
I get the feeling that because a lot of people on here haven't seen the likes of Maradona play, they find stories about such players to be far-fetched, romanticsed, rose-tinted affairs. Because they are seeing players in their era doing things that are, for them, incredible, relative to this era, the next thing to be uttered is 'potential best ever?'
It's not something that should be bandied about as readily as seen on here. It'll take an amazing player doing amazing things for a whole career from maybe 20 odd through till at least 30 to get near the greats of this game.
In the first place I don't think Messi or Cristiano are 'amazing' when you're talking about the players who sre recognised as part of the set of best ever.
Maybe but personally I think Messi is the best talent by some way since Ronaldo*. And I consider Ronaldo the best player i've ever seen after Maradonna.
*'Fat' Ronaldo obviously.
Both have time, i am of the opinion that Messi can get there but Ronaldo i don't think so.
Maradona is a player i've only seen footage of and read about but by all accounts he was a phenomenon. But at the same time i don't think it is unreasonable to describe Messi as a phenomenon. To have taken over as the main player of a team the size of Barcelona at his age. Taking the number 10 shirt from a player many regarded as worthy of comparisons with the greats is quite phenomenal for one so young don't you think?
Remember the game against Chelsea when Messi was 18 and he terrorized the defence at stamford bridge. Performances like that at his age are special. Or at 19 scoring a hat-trick in the biggest game of the season to rescue a point against your biggest rivals. To be applauded off the pitch by Madrid fans is something a little special for a 19 year old footballer. It is something that happens rarely and i can only think of Ronaldinho at his very best getting the same treatment and Cruyff.
Zidane? He was really something special to be honest, mainly because of his unique style!!
Ronaldo was definitely better than Zidane.
I think what Messi has is a mesmeric style of play that is universally loved - except by the Cristiano obsessives who hate him - and has easily got the best close-control since Fat Ron. He's the most entertaining player I've seen in a long while, but when you're mentioning him and someone like Maradona in the same breath, you're taking him up about 3 levels, which I think is unfair on the lad, personally.
If he has a World Cup like he had at youth level, he'll have gone up a level and got closer to the likes of Maradona. In terms of footballing ability, someone like Maradona is the pinnacle of the game for what a left-footed player can achieve.
I don't think Messi is a phenomenon. Ronaldo and Del Piero are the last two phenomenons, I think, and both of them were ruined by injury.
Messi's a player who'll always have the agility and dribbling ability that has fans adoring him and his game, but I don't think he can take a game on at club level in the manner Del Piero and Ronaldo could at a similar age.
Did you see someone like Roberto Baggio play, and do you think either of Messi or Cristiano are near his prime level?
He was but Zidane was better than anyone else bar Ronaldo before the injuries!! O i forgot Del Piero too!!
Yeah you're lucky you pit Del Piero in there, I definitely think he's shown himself to be better than Zidane.
But yeah, those have been the best three in recent years.
I absolutely adore Baggio. He used to do special special things. Almost every time he scored it was special, and he seemed to score his fair share.
Del Piero and Ronaldo were fantastic at his age, but i really don't think Messi isn't on the same level as they were at that age.
Out of Interest have you watched some of his performances this season?
How does Pennant rate amongst the greats?
Certainly up there with Joey Barton as greatest players to have served time...
I've watched Messi all season, yes. I think he's very, very gifted, but his game isn't all-encompassing like Del Piero's was at the same age.
You take away Messi's dribbling and you're not left with much. If you took away a single attribute from the others I mentioned they've got a good 5 or 6 more there or thereabouts to fall back on, hence Del Piero and Ronaldo still doing the business into their 30's with a natural brilliance, but totally different way of playing to when they were 19-21. Maradona and Pele and so on had that too, I'm really not sure Messi does.
He's brilliant at what he does, but the others were exceptional at more than one facet of the game.
I mentioned Baggio because he's along the line of all those fantastic players who have come and gone that fill the gap between Maradona and Fat Ronaldo who don't even get a look in in these kind of threads but who have been more brilliant during their careers than either Messi or Cristiano.
It's a long road to the top with many pitfalls, just ask Baggio, who was a penalty kick away from being remembered as a true great of the game!
This thread is fun to read. Keep up the good work lads.
Personally I prefer Ronaldo over Messi, but I'd never say Messi is worse or better than our Portuguese winger. They are both in the same category of class and I usually just lean back and enjoy watching them play some of the best football of our generation. Thankfully one of those incredibly gifted humans serves for my favourite football team, what more can I expect? Different style, (almost) equally talented.
Personally I prefer Ronaldo over Messi, but I'd never say Messi is worse or better than our Portuguese winger. They are both in the same category of class and I usually just lean back and enjoy watching them play some of the best football of our generation. Thankfully one of those incredibly gifted humans serves for my favourite football team, what more can I expect? Different style, (almost) equally talented.
fecking mental. Del Piero can only wish he ever had the talent Messi does. I've always rated Del Piero, but he's frankly not in the same league
Take away Messi's dribbling? Are you going to take it away from him? Because I reckon if you go up to him and try, he'll dribble it around you and be gone in a flash, and you'll be sat on your arse wondering what the hell just happened
You criminally underate Messi. Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. I just hope no-one listens to you, because its an utter nonsense
That's where i disagree, i think Messi is an incredibly natural player. Yes his dribbling is easily the most eye catching of his talents which he uses when he wants to be forceful but i think equally as impressive are his awareness and touch. His passing is under rated because his dribbling is so spectacular. If you watched the game against Valladolid or Recrietivo you would be aware of how good his final ball can be.
Also his one touch play is very impressive, he is very good at knocking one touch passes in order to take his opposition defenders completely out the game.
In the last two games i've watched he could have been credited with 6 or 7 assists if Henry and Eto'o had been (more) clinical. He is very unselfish on the pitch too.
Which is why i personally rate Ronaldo more, because to me he can fall back on other attributes!
Why are we so obseased with his dribbling, i love the fact that i can get to see him dribble, but it's no better than Giggs, Maradona or Robben for instance! I'm glad that the game keeps producing these players but really it is a question dribbling is his main asset but what else does he have? Not being funny because that really could be all he needs but his not a complete player yet is he?!
He's a very good finisher, which is why he has a better goals to game record than Ronaldo, he's a very good passer and his overall awareness and close control is brilliant.
He's not just a good dribbler.
If you've seen Maradona dribble, Messi's isn't as special as you seem to think.
And I certainly don't underrate Messi - he's clearly a class act, but we're talking about the greaest players here who were what Messi is and more.
I can only assume you've not watched Del Piero before the knee ligament injury.
But his other attributes are good but their not great, which is where i think Fort is coming from! Yea his finishing is good, i remember his debut for 1, which i seen live (On T.V lol). Would say it's a step above Ronaldo's to be honest.
His finishing is very, very good for a winger which he's shown over the past two years in particular.
His creative passing is very much a feature of Barcelona's play and he shows it game after game how he can pick a pass most others wouldn't even think of. His one touch pass and move is also very impressive and his ability in close spaces is brilliant.
He's not just good at them, he's very good.
Exactly. Maradona was on a completely different level. He had everything at the age of 17. As for Del Piero, he was immense in his first two seasons. . . not the same player after his injury, but I always felt he put on too much mass. When he took over from Baggio in the Juve side, he looked slim and athletic. After the injury, he bulked up too much. But I think that Juve side was experimenting with Creatine. . .and probably nandrolone too.
We're talking relative terms here though. An example would be Maradona at 33-years-old. By that time his ankles were shot and he'd lost a lot of his pace and acceleration and yet he just modified his game and was up there in the world game as one of, if not the very best, passer of the ball on the planet.
He was still getting marked by 2 men with another looking to sweep up behind the first two, and he could take them all out of play with one pass whilst setting someone else up on his team with a serious chance on goal.
Do you think this would apply to Messi if his thigh muscles and hamstrings finally fecked him over to the point where he couldn't travel with the ball at pace anymore?
I doubt he'll ever be a quarter of the passer Maradona was. Cristiano's the same, I'm not sure he'll adapt without his pace. The reason why Maradona did, was because his passing was as good as his dribbling ie out of this world.
They were doing all kinds of dodgy shit at Juve with the drugs and supplements, I recall.
He looked a shadow of himself when he came back after the injury and I think it took him a long time to get over the fact he'd lost his mobility and a lot of acceleration.
I agree about the mass. It didn't suit him or his game.
And his reading of the game and time and space. It's hard to explain how good players like that are to people who haven't seen them without it sounding like a load of bollocks.
I doubt it because his only good at the other things as much as people may argue. His no better than Xavi for instance in his passing play!
I felt like i had personally been robbed watching Del Piero struggle to out pace his opponent!
Yes.
Most people on here see Messi as dribbling and nothing else; there's far more to him than that! Some of the passes he is capable of just make me feel like a vastly inferior human being, not to mention his extraordinary control under pressure and deceiving strength on the ball.
From what I know Messi isn't as good a player, in any form of technical or physical ability, as Maradona and to be honest I don't think he ever will.
Maradona was the better passer, the better dribbler, stronger, faster etc.
So no, in relative terms Messi isn't a great passer compared to Maradona. Not many players are though.
And no, he definitely would not cope as well as Maradona did without his pace.
He'd cope better than Ronaldo though.
Take it you never had good awareness when passing??
Ronaldo could always play upfront and score plenty goals though, what would messi do play the new Scholes role? is his passing ability that good? Because lets be honest he wouldn't be much effective trying to beat a pacey left/right back if he can't get away from them?!
He'd play the Giggs/No.10 role, just better. And his passing ability is that good.
You'll never be a good striker if you're not fast and can't hold the ball up, which Ronaldo can't do very well in all honesty.
7 pages bickering about Messi vs Ronaldo, but you're all missing the bigger picture
There's actually a player better than both of them
There's actually a player better than both of them
I'm a big Del Piero fan - an under-rated player who's probably on better form than anyone else at the moment - but he's never reached the level of Ronaldo 96-98, Rivaldo 98-01 or Zidane 00-02.
The only thing required in these threads is perspective, really.
I don't know why people can't just appreciate these young players and enjoy them as we see where they end up in the pantheons of the game.
I'm not sure about Ronaldo - he has a lot of attributes that would suit being a striker if he lost a yard of pace and acceleration.
I'm quite sure neither of them would be amongst the world's best if you took away what makes them that right now, however.
I mentioned him in relation to Messi and Cristiano and also in terms of being a phenomenon at a young age.
Zidane never in his career matched Del Piero's consistency pre-injury, btw.
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