Lionel Messi

[Fortitude]

I am a self confessed Messi "fan boy". The lad is magic, pure magic.

feck the stats about goals, assists, passes and the perceived quality of his end product. Watching him closely for abut 2 years now, whats most striking is his ability to beat players.

Whenever I see him, whether its for Argentina or Barca, irrespective of the opposition, I see him get the ball anywhere on the pitch and then run past 3-4 defenders in the tightest of spaces like it was the easiest thing in the world. Couple that with all his other phenomenal attributes, and it really equates to footballing talent from another planet.

And just for the record, I've been one of Ronaldo's biggest admirers during his time at United

To date it is not irrespective of the opposition, though. La Liga has terrible one-on-one defenders and at international level he has yet to face any tasty side.

Messi's dribbling is without question the best in the world, but he has yet to put a good or great side to the sword. I'm not saying he can't do it, but that he has yet to do that.

 

[RapidRed]

To date it is not irrespective of the opposition, though. La Liga has terrible one-on-one defenders and at international level he has yet to face any tasty side.

Messi's dribbling is without question the best in the world, but he has yet to put a good or great side to the sword. I'm not saying he can't do it, but that he has yet to do that.

well, he did a pretty good job skinning our players at OT. Fortunately, his end product was lacking that day and rest of the Barca players were poor.

 

[Red Pavan]

To date it is not irrespective of the opposition, though. La Liga has terrible one-on-one defenders and at international level he has yet to face any tasty side.

Messi's dribbling is without question the best in the world, but he has yet to put a good or great side to the sword. I'm not saying he can't do it, but that he has yet to do that.

France a week ago

 

[FranklyVulgar]

To date it is not irrespective of the opposition, though. La Liga has terrible one-on-one defenders and at international level he has yet to face any tasty side.

Messi's dribbling is without question the best in the world, but he has yet to put a good or great side to the sword. I'm not saying he can't do it, but that he has yet to do that.

I don't agree with this, why does la liga have worse one on one defenders?

I honestly think the standard of defending is worse in the premiership than it is in la liga and serie a. Just because teams play with zero ambition against the big sides in england doesn't some how mean the defenders are great.

One on one do you think any of the lesser teams in the prem could stop messi? I really dont think they could. They couldnt even get close enough to kick them. In spain the defenders arn't all over 6ft and built like tanks which might make them a little better when it comes to defending one on ones as apposed to prem defenders who deal with balls in the air and dont actually have many players running at them.

Robinho, a toothpick player has managed more goals already in his first season in the big hard as nails Premier League than he ever did in La liga, and this is playing for a frankly average city side as apposed to the mighty la liga winning madrid.

Torres has also been much more successful, his dribbling is nothing spectacular but he never hit 20 league goals once in la liga yet managed it with ease in the prem in his first attempt.

Point is, defending is not child like in La Liga compared to the Premiership, Prem defenses are bigger and stronger but when it comes to a one on one situation they get torn by players with natural skill and ability much easier than their la liga counterparts.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

France a week ago

Standing ovation in Brazil against Brazil....

He's put Villareal to the sword, Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Valencia, chelsea, i mean this crap about Messi not standing out against good or great opposition is bordering on deluded.

 

[Fortitude]

I'm know i'm not doing myself any favours but even so i think i have a point. I do think alot of Ronaldos lesser performances, particularly towards the end of the season were masked by goals. I remember alot of ratings being "alright, scored again" etc.

To answer your question i wouldn't say he is out of the running, he is behind many players already though and would need to really come alive in the champions league and put together a good run of world class performances. He hasn't managed one yet this season but he is a world class player so if he pulls it together he'd have a chance of course.

The best thing for Ronaldo is that he can only improve this season. He hasn't managed a champions league goal so he'd need to be banging them in from now on. Wont be easy but he can do it, personally i dont think he will because he has had games where it looked like he was getting his form back but then he goes and plays another stinker like against Derby.

The first thing people consider is the Champions League. Before anything else, this is the stage where all the best players in the world get to meet and remove doubt about how good they are or whether they can do 'it' against opposition classed as peers. In this regard, I don't think anything has been decided for any award this season and with the return of the CL next week, it's pretty much a clean slate for all involved - including Messi.

La Liga is poor this season, and has been for the last two and is not the barometer for where Messi and his game is at. His performance in the Liga have been outstanding, but in the grand scheme of things, they are a secondary concern.

Kaka won the WPOTY (rightly or wrongly) for his performances in the CL whilst being pretty mundane in the league and it's not out of the question that the same thing could happen again this season if Ronaldo or anybody else turns it on in the upcoming fixtures.

You also seem to give no credence to the fact Ronaldo's role in the team this season has been greatly modified from the free role he had last season. That plays a big part in why he has a staccato pace to him this season compared to last where he could instinctively go where he wanted when he wanted.

To me, your measure of Messi appears to be aesthetic - the lad is a joy to watch and as such you take great delight from what he can do when he plays, but in turn you're dismissing a lot of what makes Ronaldo the player he is. His game, for you, is not aesthetically pleasing and you suggest that without his goals his performance level wouldn't have been 'masked' so readily last term.

Well, I don't agree with that at all. He exhibited the greatest movement in football last season, which is a talent all by itself, his awareness and instinct of where to go and where to be to capitalise on anything or make a goal from where there was none, is also a talent; he would have had a lot more assists if Rooney and Tevez weren't so profligate in front of goal and, ultimately, he showed that even without the ability to take on the 3's and 4's that Messi can, that he, as footballer and a talent, is incredibly gifted - when free to do as he pleases.

When restricted to the role he's got now, a lot of what made him the player he was last season is taken away. That's not to say he cannot get 'it' back if the manager again 'sets him free' in the CL.

Messi, as has been said before, is a massive benefactor in an offensively brilliant team. Ronaldo is in a team that is currently not the smooth attacking animal it can be - it plays its part in how any individual will look. Neither of these players are Maradona or Ronaldo, and they need their teams to function well to exhibit what they do. If Manchester United hit the gears they are capable of in the league and in Europe the battle between these two will be a lot closer than I think you believe it can be.

Messi's individual and fundamental quality of dribbling is light years above Ronaldo's, but his overall game and its effectiveness is definitely not - at their best, these two are still par even until one or other them does something amazing on the greater stages presented - that's what ultimately seperated Maradona from Platini and Zico, and what will probably do the same between these two. I don't even reckon it would need to be a world cup. An incredible series of performances in the CL would do it, I reckon.

 

[Fortitude]

France a week ago

Standing ovation in Brazil against Brazil....

He's put Villareal to the sword, Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Valencia, chelsea, i mean this crap about Messi not standing out against good or great opposition is bordering on deluded.

Two sides who are a shadow of what they were even 4 years ago.

I don't think you two appreciate the grandscale of things. The names of the sides involved is hardly relevant.

He's ripped piss out of RM for a while as well, but they are shit at this moment in time.

Let's use Giggs as an example in 1999. He took the piss out of the best backlines in the world on both the domestic and CL level scoring the best goal the FA Cup has seen and tearing the then best team in the world (Juventus) to shreds both in Turin and at home and did battle with Javier Zanetti in duels vs Inter and bested him as well.

Messi hasn't come up against anything like that calibre of side or individual opposition. Saying 'Brazil' or 'France' is pretty worthless if they aren't worth a shit at the time.

 

[Fortitude]

I don't agree with this, why does la liga have worse one on one defenders?

I honestly think the standard of defending is worse in the premiership than it is in la liga and serie a. Just because teams play with zero ambition against the big sides in england doesn't some how mean the defenders are great.

One on one do you think any of the lesser teams in the prem could stop messi? I really dont think they could. They couldnt even get close enough to kick them. In spain the defenders arn't all over 6ft and built like tanks which might make them a little better when it comes to defending one on ones as apposed to prem defenders who deal with balls in the air and dont actually have many players running at them.

Robinho, a toothpick player has managed more goals already in his first season in the big hard as nails Premier League than he ever did in La liga, and this is playing for a frankly average city side as apposed to the mighty la liga winning madrid.

Torres has also been much more successful, his dribbling is nothing spectacular but he never hit 20 league goals once in la liga yet managed it with ease in the prem in his first attempt.

Point is, defending is not child like in La Liga compared to the Premiership, Prem defenses are bigger and stronger but when it comes to a one on one situation they get torn by players with natural skill and ability much easier than their la liga counterparts.

I asked you already to list the great defenders in Spain.. there aren't any these days and with the way sides set up to attack each other, it's primed for a side like Barcelona to wreak havoc on a soft division.

La Liga is nowhere near the standard it was at the turn of the century and that counts for a lot when evaluating the attackers and why they need to show the same level of performance in the CL.

The only time I don't think that's applicable is when a team and player is clearly coming up against the best that there is in his own domestic league.

Much like how Gullit, Van Basten, Ronaldo etc did in Italy in the 90's and how Raul, Figo and Rivaldo etc did in the early 00's and how our Ronaldo has done in the late 00's. This also translates almost directly to CL success at the time those leagues were dominant, which further enhances the point.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I agree with you in alot of the points you make to be honest and i understand where you are coming from and maybe i am guilty of under-rating Ronaldo even though i think he's a world class player. But respectfully i think you under-rate Messi. Yes everyone knows Messi is lightyears the best dribbler in world football but it his is football intelligance, his little one twos and his eye for a pass. Unlike Ronaldo Messi is actually better at being creative than he is at scoring goals and when you talk about Ronaldo having many more assists have you ever seen the video of Messi's creativity? it's purely him playing players in on goal and if not for seriously toiletbowl finishing the kids number of assists would be doubled at least by now.

This is what makes him the better player for me, yes Ronaldo has things he is better at, more two footed, great in the air, free kicks. But what Messi does well he does so well it makes comparisons difficult. Even so Ronaldo only really started hitting free kicks at a decent level last season as far as i can remember. That's the only time he really scored them or struck them with any sort of consistency (even then it's sporadic). In two or three years Messi could be develop that part of his game but even if he doesnt he's only got to maintain what he is doing now to eclipse everyone else playing the game.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Two sides who are a shadow of what they were even 4 years ago.

I don't think you two appreciate the grandscale of things. The names of the sides involved is hardly relevant.

He's ripped piss out of RM for a while as well, but they are shit at this moment in time.

Let's use Giggs as an example in 1999. He took the piss out of the best backlines in the world on both the domestic and CL level scoring the best goal the FA Cup has seen and tearing the then best team in the world (Juventus) to shreds both in Turin and at home and did battle with Javier Zanetti in duels vs Inter and bested him as well.

Messi hasn't come up against anything like that calibre of side or individual opposition. Saying 'Brazil' or 'France' is pretty worthless if they aren't worth a shit at the time.

This is quite embarassing.

YOu could basically say anyone in world football and you would shoot them down. Brazil, current copa america holders. Just beat the world champions convincingly.

France, runners up in the world cup. One of the most talented squads in international football.

Which international team would you rather he tore?

I really think you and the rest will create an excuse for every good performance the kid puts in for the rest of his life. No team will ever measure up to your expectations of what a great team is. La Liga is the worst it's ever been, Serie A is a joke. International football is worthless so basically only if you win in the CL or Prem you can even begin to be considered a great player.

I'm tired of this negativity concerning the modern game.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I asked you already to list the great defenders in Spain.. there aren't any these days and with the way sides set up to attack each other, it's primed for a side like Barcelona to wreak havoc on a soft division.

La Liga is nowhere near the standard it was at the turn of the century and that counts for a lot when evaluating the attackers and why they need to show the same level of performance in the CL.

The only time I don't think that's applicable is when a team and player is clearly coming up against the best that there is in his own domestic league.

Much like how Gullit, Van Basten, Ronaldo etc did in Italy in the 90's and how Raul, Figo and Rivaldo etc did in the early 00's and how our Ronaldo has done in the late 00's. This also translates almost directly to CL success at the time those leagues were dominant, which further enhances the point.

WHo the feck are the great defenders in the world?

I could go through every la liga squad and you would shoot them down, i could pick out defenders who may or may not have a big future who currently play in la liga and you would shoot it down.

Is this Gullit and Van Basten who played in the same team as the greatest defense of all time? That Milan defense was something else, record breakers the likes of which probably wont be seen again.

 

[Fortitude]

I agree with you in alot of the points you make to be honest and i understand where you are coming from and maybe i am guilty of under-rating Ronaldo even though i think he's a world class player. But respectfully i think you under-rate Messi. Yes everyone knows Messi is lightyears the best dribbler in world football but it his is football intelligance, his little one twos and his eye for a pass. Unlike Ronaldo Messi is actually better at being creative than he is at scoring goals and when you talk about Ronaldo having many more assists have you ever seen the video of Messi's creativity? it's purely him playing players in on goal and if not for seriously toiletbowl finishing the kids number of assists would be doubled at least by now.

This is what makes him the better player for me, yes Ronaldo has things he is better at, more two footed, great in the air, free kicks. But what Messi does well he does so well it makes comparisons difficult. Even so Ronaldo only really started hitting free kicks at a decent level last season as far as i can remember. That's the only time he really scored them or struck them with any sort of consistency (even then it's sporadic). In two or three years Messi could be develop that part of his game but even if he doesnt he's only got to maintain what he is doing now to eclipse everyone else playing the game.

I watch Messi every week and would like to think I have full appreciation of what he brings the table.

His football intelligence is simply different to Ronaldo's and you clearly appreciate it more, but it is not, by definition, better. Ronaldo plays in a way that no-one else can copy and it's not just because of his physical attributes; it's because he is one smart and cunning customer who can 'suddenly' pop in the box and leap between two CB's who were, about a second ago, marking thin air, and score.

Ronaldo is exceptional at what he does, Messi does not outstrip him in this department because he exhibits his guile in a different way.

I think you'd do well to separate aesthetic pleasure from objective analysis, personally. These two are very close in terms of what they are and what they could end up being.

Neither one of them has finished developing and it's more likely that we'll see more from Ronaldo than Messi, whose game has barely deviated since the Youth World Cup. That's not to say that will make Ronaldo better than Messi, but it will certainly mean there is no forgone conclusion to who is the better player just because Messi has more natural, or God-given, talent.

 

[Fortitude]

This is quite embarassing.

YOu could basically say anyone in world football and you would shoot them down. Brazil, current copa america holders. Just beat the world champions convincingly.

France, runners up in the world cup. One of the most talented squads in international football.

Which international team would you rather he tore?

I really think you and the rest will create an excuse for every good performance the kid puts in for the rest of his life. No team will ever measure up to your expectations of what a great team is. La Liga is the worst it's ever been, Serie A is a joke. International football is worthless so basically only if you win in the CL or Prem you can even begin to be considered a great player.

I'm tired of this negativity concerning the modern game.

No, I'm just telling it like it is. This is not a vintage season for football no matter how much you will it to be because Barcelona are superb this term.

Liga is poor

Serie A is a joke compared to what it used to be.

The PL is competitive, but not nearly as impressive as it was last season or the three before.

I'm not sure the rest of the European league matter much in the big scheme of things. Lyon will again be champions in France and the Bundesliga, whilst fun to watch, is not anything like the standard it was when Bayern could challenge the rest of Europe's giant head on and beat them.

WHo the feck are the great defenders in the world?

I could go through every la liga squad and you would shoot them down, i could pick out defenders who may or may not have a big future who currently play in la liga and you would shoot it down.

Is this Gullit and Van Basten who played in the same team as the greatest defense of all time? That Milan defense was something else, record breakers the likes of which probably wont be seen again.

Proven defenders who are, and remain brilliant at every level they played at. Go ahead and name some.. it shouldn't be hard... name just one defender on say, Ayala or Andrade's level circa 2000-2003

 

[FranklyVulgar]

I watch Messi every week and would like to think I have full appreciation of what he brings the table.

His football intelligence is simply different to Ronaldo's and you clearly appreciate it more, but it is not, by definition, better. Ronaldo plays in a way that no-one else can copy and it's not just because of his physical attributes; it's because he is one smart and cunning customer who can 'suddenly' pop in the box and leap between two CB's who were, about a second ago, marking thin air, and score.

Ronaldo is exceptional at what he does, Messi does not outstrip him in this department because he exhibits his guile in a different way.

I think you'd do well to separate aesthetic pleasure from objective analysis, personally. These two are very close in terms of what they are and what they could end up being.

Neither one of them has finished developing and it's more likely that we'll see more from Ronaldo than Messi, whose game has barely deviated since the Youth World Cup. That's not to say that will make Ronaldo better than Messi, but it will certainly mean there is no forgone conclusion to who is the better player just because Messi has more natural, or God-given, talent.

Well i fully wholehartedly dissagree with you.

Somehow Ronaldo, 24 already and developed incredibly although hasn't really done much this season will continue to develop and develop where as Messi at 21 who has shown more this season and been consistently brilliant can't improve anymore. I can just imagine the 10 year old Messi being more developed than the 13 year old Ronaldo.

You'll probably find that they both share a determination and both share a desire to improve. Messi doesn't rest on his god given talent and expect that fact to keep him ahead of his competitors, he's very professional and lives for football.

It's astonishing to believe that Messi wont progress at all whilst Ronaldo who has came on leaps and bounds already will continue to develop. Baffling really...

 

[FranklyVulgar]

No, I'm just telling it like it is. This is not a vintage season for football no matter how much you will it to be because Barcelona are superb this term.

Liga is poor

Serie A is a joke compared to what it used to be.

The PL is competitive, but not nearly as impressive as it was last season or the three before.

I'm not sure the rest of the European league matter much in the big scheme of things. Lyon will again be champions in France and the Bundesliga, whilst fun to watch, is not anything like the standard it was when Bayern could challenge the rest of Europe's giant head on and beat them.


Proven defenders who are, and remain brilliant at every level they played at. Go ahead and name some.. it shouldn't be hard... name just one defender on say, Ayala or Andrade's level circa 2000-2003

Football is dire, why even watch it....

Does it matter who i name as good defenders in la liga? you'll shoot them down, the leagues a joke, joke teams, joke managers, joke defenders.

Prem is the only league worth a damn, they should really just forget about titles in other countries, they count for nothing. feck it, put me in a pair of boots and i'll go and skin some La liga defenders.

 

[Fortitude]

Well i fully wholehartedly dissagree with you.

Somehow Ronaldo, 24 already and developed incredibly although hasn't really done much this season will continue to develop and develop where as Messi at 21 who has shown more this season and been consistently brilliant can't improve anymore. I can just imagine the 10 year old Messi being more developed than the 13 year old Ronaldo.

You'll probably find that they both share a determination and both share a desire to improve. Messi doesn't rest on his god given talent and expect that fact to keep him ahead of his competitors, he's very professional and lives for football.

It's astonishing to believe that Messi wont progress at all whilst Ronaldo who has came on leaps and bounds already will continue to develop. Baffling really...

I didn't say that, did I? Or are you being obtuse?

If you watch footage of Messi at the age of 16 and now, there is practically no difference in his approach to the game. His vision, passing and awareness have improved, but fundamentally, it's the same Messi.

You look at Ronaldo at the age of 17 and now, and there's almost no similarity between the younger and older player. Ronaldo has shown, constantly, that his game can change whilst acquiring almost wholly new skillsets to the ones previously displayed. There's absolutely no way of knowing whether this is it for Ronaldo or whether his game will change again.

The same is not so for Messi. He'll get better at what he does, but there won't be tremendous deviation from what he was to what he will become in the future.

 

[Fortitude]

Football is dire, why even watch it....

Does it matter who i name as good defenders in la liga? you'll shoot them down, the leagues a joke, joke teams, joke managers, joke defenders.

Prem is the only league worth a damn, they should really just forget about titles in other countries, they count for nothing. feck it, put me in a pair of boots and i'll go and skin some La liga defenders.

You're skirting the issue.

 

[peterstorey]

The same is not so for Messi. He'll get better at what he does, but there won't be tremendous deviation from what he was to what he will become in the future.

Yeah but he did, and does, everything brilliantly. Ronaldo has actually become a more limited if more effective player.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah but he did, and does, everything brilliantly. Ronaldo has actually become a more limited if more effective player.

That's not really fair. He is not playing the role he did last season and that has to offset what was a perfect course for him.

Ronaldo certainly appears more minimalist with what he does, but that does not determine whether he'll remain so forever more.

 

[peterstorey]

That's not really fair. He is not playing the role he did last season and that has to offset what was a perfect course for him.

Ronaldo certainly appears more minimalist with what he does, but that does not determine whether he'll remain so forever more.

It's more apparent this season since you've gone back to 442, but I think it was true last season as well compared to 2006/7.

 

[Fortitude]

It's more apparent this season since you've gone back to 442, but I think it was true last season as well compared to 2006/7.

I don't think you just lose the ability to take players on - he had been doing it for five years straight - but if it's not the first thing on your mind or you're having conflicting thoughts of what to do when you've got the ball, which leads to dithering and then easily being dispossessed, you're probably going to exhibit what Ronaldo is at the moment.

Do you think this is something that has gone from his game for good?

 

[Bearded but no genius]

There is some real high emotion in here.

If Ronaldo grew his hair long and pretty would you all love him again?

 

[peterstorey]

I don't think you just lose the ability to take players on - he had been doing it for five years straight - but if it's not the first thing on your mind or you're having conflicting thoughts of what to do when you've got the ball, which leads to dithering and then easily being dispossessed, you're probably going to exhibit what Ronaldo is at the moment.

Do you think this is something that has gone from his game for good?

I don't know, but the player who unhinged defences by running at them hasn't been there for about 18 months now. In fact he rarely seems to go past anybody at all these days

 

[Anderson Searl]

There is some real high emotion in here.

If Ronaldo grew his hair long and pretty would you all love him again?

It's embarassing, this kid brings out the SHEER ANGER of everyone who loves or loathes him... it's sickening, especially considering he's quite obviously very talented.

Deal with it people, neither is better than either at this point.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

You're skirting the issue.

Villareal were defensively good against United in the last 4 0-0 draws between the clubs. They have young south american defenders like Godin and Gonzalo who look good and could go onto be top players both are already internationals.

Madrid and Barca players need no introduction but have an awful lot of experienced defenders, top defenders.

Atletico have had defensive problems and signed Ujfalusi who was great for Fiorentina and has been exellent for the Czechs for years. ALso have various other internationals like Heitinga from Holland who has looked poor but has been good for the dutch and was great at Ajax. He should come good.

Sevilla have a very experienced defense including the partner of serbian monster Vidic in the national team Drago.

There are alot of talented young defenders in spain like Garay on loan from Madrid who has a big future.

The amount of young talented center backs and full backs is impressive. There are world cup winnering defenders, european cup winning defenders, european championship winning defenders etc etc.

The standard of player is always going to be high in spain, probably higher (at the very least on a technical level) than the EPL.

Why is it defenders like Melberg who was brilliant in the prem is despised by Juve fans?

The standard of defending in the premiership is no better than la liga. Outside the top 4 it's probably worse than other places. I fully beleive that EPL defenses will be better in the air and dealing with that sort of threat. La Liga defenders will be better with the ball and more alert to players running with the ball and should be better at dealing with that threat.

 

[Brwned]

The standard of defending in the premiership is no better than la liga. Outside the top 4 it's probably worse than other places. I fully beleive that EPL defenses will be better in the air and dealing with that sort of threat. La Liga defenders will be better with the ball and more alert to players running with the ball and should be better at dealing with that threat.

You say that but then look at your list of players this season.

Drago's been average. Godin and Gonzalo haven't been at the same level they were last season, they've still been good though. Cannavaro, Pepe and Metzelder have been found lacking a number of times at Real Madrid and haven't shown themselves to be quality defenders at all, with Pepe being the only one close to doing so.

Puyol, Milito and Marquez are the only ones I'd call quality, and that's at a push.

I don't think the quality of defending at the very top is good enough, but I think it is better balanced throughout the league and there's not much between the leagues.

I'd definitely go for the Premier League if I had to choose one though.

 

[Fortitude]

Villareal were defensively good against United in the last 4 0-0 draws between the clubs. They have young south american defenders like Godin and Gonzalo who look good and could go onto be top players both are already internationals.

Madrid and Barca players need no introduction but have an awful lot of experienced defenders, top defenders.

Atletico have had defensive problems and signed Ujfalusi who was great for Fiorentina and has been exellent for the Czechs for years. ALso have various other internationals like Heitinga from Holland who has looked poor but has been good for the dutch and was great at Ajax. He should come good.

Sevilla have a very experienced defense including the partner of serbian monster Vidic in the national team Drago.

There are alot of talented young defenders in spain like Garay on loan from Madrid who has a big future.

The amount of young talented center backs and full backs is impressive. There are world cup winnering defenders, european cup winning defenders, european championship winning defenders etc etc.

The standard of player is always going to be high in spain, probably higher (at the very least on a technical level) than the EPL.

Why is it defenders like Melberg who was brilliant in the prem is despised by Juve fans?

The standard of defending in the premiership is no better than la liga. Outside the top 4 it's probably worse than other places. I fully beleive that EPL defenses will be better in the air and dealing with that sort of threat. La Liga defenders will be better with the ball and more alert to players running with the ball and should be better at dealing with that threat.

And there we are, none worth a pish compared to the two players I mentioned.

The strength and quality of La Liga is in the midfields and the midfield battle and not the defences or defenders at the back.

In the same way their national side's midfield took England apart, is where the actual quality of that league is shown - getting through the midfield to have a go at the defence itself is the hard part in La Liga. The defences themselves are not good or strong. There's not a single defender there who gets close to the likes of Rio, Vidic, Caravlho in the PL. and on the flanks, the amount of athletic one-on-one full-backs who are good at the particular function of tracking a wide man is also much higher and superior in the PL.

 

[RedPhil1957]

I watch Messi every week and would like to think I have full appreciation of what he brings the table.

His football intelligence is simply different to Ronaldo's and you clearly appreciate it more, but it is not, by definition, better. Ronaldo plays in a way that no-one else can copy and it's not just because of his physical attributes; it's because he is one smart and cunning customer who can 'suddenly' pop in the box and leap between two CB's who were, about a second ago, marking thin air, and score.

Ronaldo is exceptional at what he does, Messi does not outstrip him in this department because he exhibits his guile in a different way.

I think you'd do well to separate aesthetic pleasure from objective analysis, personally. These two are very close in terms of what they are and what they could end up being.

Neither one of them has finished developing and it's more likely that we'll see more from Ronaldo than Messi, whose game has barely deviated since the Youth World Cup. That's not to say that will make Ronaldo better than Messi, but it will certainly mean there is no forgone conclusion to who is the better player just because Messi has more natural, or God-given, talent.

I would agree with much of that except the last line where I **** you are mixing "aesthetic pleasure" with talent ...... those attributes you so rightly point out for Ronaldo are as much part of a footballers natural talent as Messi's dribbling skills neither got their ablities from a coach.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Messis natural talent isn't just his dribbling ability. He makes the right decisions on the pitch, he finds himself space well, he has the eye for a pass and these are all qualities i that make him for my money the best.

 

[vijay]

Messi's individual and fundamental quality of dribbling is light years above Ronaldo's, but his overall game and its effectiveness is definitely not - at their best, these two are still par even until one or other them does something amazing on the greater stages presented - that's what ultimately seperated Maradona from Platini and Zico, and what will probably do the same between these two. I don't even reckon it would need to be a world cup. An incredible series of performances in the CL would do it, I reckon.

Apart from dribbling, Messi's one touch passing and moving the ball is also light years ahead of any one else.

Dunno what you mean by overall game, its not FM stuff. Ronaldinho is better than goofy Ronaldo in freekicks, acrabotic, can play on the wings, more balanced with his left foot, heading the ball etc..but Goofy in full flow can blow away any opposition and a superior footballer. Comparision with Messi and Ronaldo is similar to that. Whether the player is one footed, limited or not the authority by which he can dominate any opposition ultimately determines his greatness.

As for your comparision of Maradona with others, he wasn't human. Had Zico been couple of inches taller and bit more muscular he would've been rated as high as Pele.

 

[vijay]

And there we are, none worth a pish compared to the two players I mentioned.

The strength and quality of La Liga is in the midfields and the midfield battle and not the defences or defenders at the back.

In the same way their national side's midfield took England apart, is where the actual quality of that league is shown - getting through the midfield to have a go at the defence itself is the hard part in La Liga. The defences themselves are not good or strong. There's not a single defender there who gets close to the likes of Rio, Vidic, Caravlho in the PL. and on the flanks, the amount of athletic one-on-one full-backs who are good at the particular function of tracking a wide man is also much higher and superior in the PL.

We had/still have the best defence in the world and when we played them, we parked the bus but still Messi was Messi...he did everything but could not score.

When Barca were good and took on Chelsea, the best defence in the world then, Messi was unplayable.

Still had Fergie opted for open play and not resorted to the modern catennaccio like sitting back and soaking up the attacks Messi would've done the damage in the second leg.

 

[Spoony]

The same is not so for Messi. He'll get better at what he does, but there won't be tremendous deviation from what he was to what he will become in the future.

You can never predict if a player will improve. Some players peak at a young age, others mature in their mid to late 20's. Zidane's the obvious example. That said, I'd have Messi above any player outside of United. He's a special talent. Although, I doubt whether he'll have charisma, cockiness or arrogance(call it what you want) other great players seemed to have had.

 

[Fortitude]

[/B]



I would agree with much of that except the last line where I **** you are mixing "aesthetic pleasure" with talent ...... those attributes you so rightly point out for Ronaldo are as much part of a footballers natural talent as Messi's dribbling skills neither got their ablities from a coach.

Hmm.. well, it's seen as a more natural talent and is generally considered as such by most. I take your point, but would say Ronaldo probably had to work a lot more on that than Messi did with his dribbling, which is exactly the same now as it was when he was 16.

Apart from dribbling, Messi's one touch passing and moving the ball is also light years ahead of any one else.

Why do you always make wild statements like this? You must surely know that's bollocks?

We had/still have the best defence in the world and when we played them, we parked the bus but still Messi was Messi...he did everything but could not score.

When Barca were good and took on Chelsea, the best defence in the world then, Messi was unplayable.

Still had Fergie opted for open play and not resorted to the modern catennaccio like sitting back and soaking up the attacks Messi would've done the damage in the second leg.

And this... more hyperbole which has been been argued against by at least 4 people the first time you mentioned it some 800 posts or whatever ago.

You can never predict if a player will improve. Some players peak at a young age, others mature in their mid to late 20's. Zidane's the obvious example. That said, I'd have Messi above any player outside of United. He's a special talent. Although, I doubt whether he'll have charisma, cockiness or arrogance(call it what you want) other great players seemed to have had.

Messi has barely changed from 16 till now, Spoons. He doesn't need to change either, but I'm saying we're pretty much seeing what Messi will be and I don't think the same can be said of someone as chameleonic as Ronnie - whose game as altered dramtically in each of the 3 season before this one.

 

[vijay]

Why do you always make wild statements like this? You must surely know that's bollocks? And this... more hyperbole which has been been argued against by at least 4 people the first time you mentioned it some 800 posts or whatever ago.

The problem here when some ones says Messi can do that you hit back with a one liner he cannot and give a different interpretation. His short range passing or moving the ball upfront is currently the best in the sport, yet you choose to say no. So as per your logic, Messi is only about dribbling, not good in other areas and he neither dominated against Chelsea...may be different interpretations on what you see. If you argue Messi dosent dominate matches only good and if the same yardstick is applied to Ronaldo or anyone else it looks more funny.

I went down to the extent of posting youtube clips but still you and your cronies have always find ways to reply to ridicule his performance in a one liner. I am sure many here have barely had time to watched prior to this season, may be this year World player of the year awards has triggered your interests.

 

[Anderson Searl]

From now on I will edit the vowels in this blokes name.

From now on, Lionel Messi becomes:

L**n*l M*ss*

 

[Fortitude]

The problem here when some ones says Messi can do that you hit back with a one liner he cannot and give a different interpretation. His short range passing or moving the ball upfront is currently the best in the sport, yet you choose to say no. So as per your logic, Messi is only about dribbling, not good in other areas and he neither dominated against Chelsea...may be different interpretations on what you see. If you argue Messi dosent dominate matches only good and if the same yardstick is applied to Ronaldo or anyone else it looks more funny.

I went down to the extent of posting youtube clips but still you and your cronies have always find ways to reply to ridicule his performance in a one liner. I am sure many here have barely had time to watched prior to this season, may be this year World player of the year awards has triggered your interests.

You've got me confused with someone else, I'm afriad.

The only bone I've got to pick with this Messi issue is that most of it is ridiculously premature and overblown.

The lad is playing the best footy on the planet, I've never said otherwise.

 

[Cal?]

France a week ago

The same France who are behind Lithuania in the WC group?

 

[FranklyVulgar]

Hmm.. well, it's seen as a more natural talent and is generally considered as such by most. I take your point, but would say Ronaldo probably had to work a lot more on that than Messi did with his dribbling, which is exactly the same now as it was when he was 16.

Ronaldo obviously spent his years mastering his tricks, Messi just runs with the ball glued to his left foot and uses subtle movements and dummies to beat men. His dribbling hasn't changed much since he was that age no doubt. He’s learned to do it closer to goal and when to do it rather than to just turn and run at men like he would have done at that age.

Why do you always make wild statements like this? You must surely know that's bollocks?

Don't see why you think that, Messi is always looking for little one twos and they usually only break down when a team mate can't return the pass.

I've seen Messi pick the ball up on the left and play maybe 4 one touch passes with team mates which has taken him to the other end of the pitch and opened up the game. Wonderful sight to see and shows a brilliant level of one touch passing.

Messi has barely changed from 16 till now, Spoons. He doesn't need to change either, but I'm saying we're pretty much seeing what Messi will be and I don't think the same can be said of someone as chameleonic as Ronnie - whose game as altered dramatically in each of the 3 season before this one.

Messi will never change his style, that much is obvious but he has still improved an awful lot and he can still continue to improve. This idea that Messi can't improve at 21 and Ronaldo will continue to get better and better at 24 is one of the strangest ones going. Who can really say that Messi wont improve or that Ronaldo will continue to. If anything i would think that Ronaldo has less chance of improving due to a number of reason. For one thing he has improved a great deal already, more than almost any other player playing the game. That tells me that unless he is a miricle he wont continue to develop or at least his rate will slow right down because in any walk of life the final improvements are the hardest and Ronaldo could well have reached his limit. Secondly he's 3 years older than Messi which again leads me to believe that Messi has more potential to improve considering in footballing terms he is still very much a youngster. Ronaldo is no longer in the bracket of young player. Also the fact that Ronaldo as far as i can tell has made no progress this season and doesn't look the same player as last year leads me to believe he would do well to recapture his form of last season or the season before, before we can even think about him continuing to develop.

This idea that Ronaldo is going to continue to develop season after season is over, he can't improve on last season this season and that'll end his amazing 5 seasons of developing consistently. He'll forever be judged against his 40goal season and i'd bet my house he'll never better that goal return.

 

[Fortitude]

Don't see why you think that, Messi is always looking for little one twos and they usually only break down when a team mate can't return the pass.

I've seen Messi pick the ball up on the left and play maybe 4 one touch passes with team mates which has taken him to the other end of the pitch and opened up the game. Wonderful sight to see and shows a brilliant level of one touch passing.

He said Messi's one-touch game etc is light years better than anybody elses. Not only is that bollocks, he's not even the best one touch player in the world.

Messi will never change his style, that much is obvious but he has still improved an awful lot and he can still continue to improve. This idea that Messi can't improve at 21 and Ronaldo will continue to get better and better at 24 is one of the strangest ones going. Who can really say that Messi wont improve or that Ronaldo will continue to. If anything i would think that Ronaldo has less chance of improving due to a number of reason. For one thing he has improved a great deal already, more than almost any other player playing the game. That tells me that unless he is a miricle he wont continue to develop or at least his rate will slow right down because in any walk of life the final improvements are the hardest and Ronaldo could well have reached his limit. Secondly he's 3 years older than Messi which again leads me to believe that Messi has more potential to improve considering in footballing terms he is still very much a youngster. Ronaldo is no longer in the bracket of young player. Also the fact that Ronaldo as far as i can tell has made no progress this season and doesn't look the same player as last year leads me to believe he would do well to recapture his form of last season or the season before, before we can even think about him continuing to develop.

This idea that Ronaldo is going to continue to develop season after season is over, he can't improve on last season this season and that'll end his amazing 5 seasons of developing consistently. He'll forever be judged against his 40goal season and i'd bet my house he'll never better that goal return.

You wrote all that for no reason, as you've not understood what I wrote in the first place. In fact, you've gone off wildly on your own tangent if you think I'm suggesting one has a finite level of development left and the other does not.

 

[FranklyVulgar]

He said Messi's one-touch game etc is light years better than anybody elses. Not only is that bollocks, he's not even the best one touch player in the world.

he's certainly one of the best. being on of the best one touch passers at Barca puts you pretty high in a world wide scale.

You wrote all that for no reason, as you've not understood what I wrote in the first place. In fact, you've gone off wildly on your own tangent if you think I'm suggesting one has a finite level of development left and the other does not.

Fair enough but you aren't the only one to hold the idea that Ronaldo will continue to improve and change and improve where as Messi cant. You make a point about him not changing since he was 16. Why not just say he hasn't changed since birth...