Lionel Messi

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Cal? said:
You know what Brwned, you're beginning to sound like those Goons who claimed that it was never Henry's fault when they bottled it in Europe time and again.

It's always all the other players in the team's fault.

Now Messi is ALWAYS brilliant, Barca finishing 18pt behind Madrid is everyone else's fault.
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If that were my viewpoint I'd be saying Barcelona being at their brilliant best is purely because of Messi, but I'm not, because Xavi's been brilliant too.

They've both been brilliant for the past two seasons.

Anyone who watches them regularly would tell you that.

Why do you bother talking about Messi or Xavi when we all know you don't watch them play regularly? It's pointless.
 
Brwned said:
Messi's season was hit by injuries, but he still played brilliantly when he had the chance, which is why he came second in those awards despite his injury problems.
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Ah but Barca didn't win anything so therefor Messi is rubbish.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Nnnnnyyyyooope.

I said your bias is pathetic because I've seen it in numerous threads. And it's something that's clearly stopping you ever adding any meaningful objective points where Gooner-things are related. And it is a pathetic bias because every single chance you get you try to pot Henry in particular, even when even your own/everyone praises him in any way. Even in the face of overwhelming fact and opposition you continue to 'fight' on.

You've assumed I said your bias is pathetic because you mentioned those three players. You're clearly wrong.

And explain how it's easy to assume as much?

Please go ahead and do it in light of all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And I don't ignore those that agree with you, in fact if you'd bother to actually research and stop assuming (it hasn't really worked out for you so far now, has it?) you'd have seen that I've addressed others.

And I have no problem with them or their opinions. And do you know why? It's because they don't use bullshit daft points to underpin their opinion. Only you do.

Only you.
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Even the biggest ABUs accept that the likes of Schmeichel, Cantona & Ronaldo have every right to be included in discussions about the best player ever in the Premiership - your dismissal of them have led to my assumption of your ABU-ness.

It was a very reasonable assumption to make given your reply (or lack thereof) to my point about 3 great United players.

You have repeatedly said that I was "alone" in disagreeing with you when there are many people who agreed with me in this thread. I also have no problems with other Messi-fans (except vijay), do you know why? because the others do not dismiss United players like you continually do.
 
Brwned said:
Messi's season was hit by injuries, but he still played brilliantly when he had the chance, which is why he came second in those awards despite his injury problems.
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Did he also play brilliantly against United?

Was he so brilliant in those 13 games in the 2nd half of the season I mentioned earlier?
 
Brwned said:
If that were my viewpoint I'd be saying Barcelona being at their brilliant best is purely because of Messi, but I'm not, because Xavi's been brilliant too.

They've both been brilliant for the past two seasons.

Anyone who watches them regularly would tell you that.

Why do you bother talking about Messi or Xavi when we all know you don't watch them play regularly? It's pointless.
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Clearly it's you who've been blinded by Xavi in the Euros and both of them THIS SEASON. Whilst I agree that they've both been "brilliant" this season they were both mediocre last season.

Teams with 2 top players performing "brilliantly" on a regular basis do not go on to finish 10pts behind average sides like Villarreal.
 
Cal? said:
Even the biggest ABUs accept that the likes of Schmeichel, Cantona & Ronaldo have every right to be included in discussions about the best player ever in the Premiership - your dismissal of them have led to my assumption of your ABU-ness.

I was a very reasonable assumption to make given your reply (or lack thereof) to my point about 3 great United players.

You have repeatedly said that I was "alone" in disagreeing with you when there are many people who agreed with me in this thread. I also have no problems with other Messi-fans (except vijay), do you know why? because the others do not dismiss United players like you continually do.
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But I DIDN'T dismiss them, WHICH IS WHAT I'VE EXPLAINED MANY TIMES ALREADY.

I didn't even address that part of your post for christ's sake - do you undertand? I've fecking explained that for the tenth time now! And what this means is that you just assumed all that, and that you're a dipshit.

SAY YES IF YOU UNDERSTAND. Show some sign of understanding that fecking sentence.

I can fully accept they're discussed as possibly the best player the Premiership's ever seen, I have no queries or qualms with that. I think Giggs is the Greatest player the EPL has seen. But I'm a fanboii?

And show me where I've EVER dismissed ANY United player in here, and then explain in what capacity. DO IT. You make all these fecking claims about things I've said, expressed and what I think, yet have not proven ANY of it EVER.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
But I DIDN'T dismiss them, WHICH IS PRECISELY MY POINT.

I didn't even address that part of your post for christ's sake - do you undertand? I've fecking explained that for the tenth time now! And what this means is that you just assumed all that, and that you're a dipshit.

I can fully accept they're discussed as possibly the best player the Premiership's ever seen, I have no queries or qualms with that.

And show me where I've EVER dismissed ANY United player in here, and then explain in what capacity. DO IT. You make all these fecking claims about things I've said, expressed and what I think, yet have not proven ANY of it EVER.
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Okay, now you claim you didn't dismiss them, but your reply back then looked very much a dismissal - as if "feck off if you don't think Henry is ze best ever in ze PL"

which led to my assumption that you're dismissing them, hence my conclusion that you're merely jumping on a bandwagon to make United look bad.

It might have been my mistake to make that assumption, but you sure as hell made that assumption easy to make.
 
I'm not yelling, I just want those particular words emphasised/to stand out. So it may eventually lead to this pillock understanding.
 
Cal? said:
Did he also play brilliantly against United?

Was he so brilliant in those 13 games in the 2nd half of the season I mentioned earlier?
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He played well against us, and yes he was brilliant in those 13 matches. Goals-wise not so much, playing-wise yes. It was like Ronaldo in the firsthalf of the 06/07 season.
 
Cal? said:
Clearly it's you who've been blinded by Xavi in the Euros and both of them THIS SEASON. Whilst I agree that they've both been "brilliant" this season they were both mediocre last season.

Teams with 2 top players performing "brilliantly" on a regular basis do not go on to finish 10pts behind average sides like Villarreal.
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I said before the Euro's he was the best midfielder in the world. And it was true then, even more so now.

Xavi at the Eruo's wasn't half as good as Xavi last season for Barcelona, again showing you just didn't watch him and are talking out of your arse.

Villareal aren't average, we've drew 0-0 with them 4 times now, showing they're more than just average.
 
Cal? said:
Okay, now you claim you didn't dismiss them, but your reply back then looked very much a dismissal - as if "feck off if you don't think Henry is ze best ever in ze PL"

which led to my assumption that you're dismissing them, hence my conclusion that you're merely jumping on a bandwagon to make United look bad.

It might have been my mistake to make that assumption, but you sure as hell made that assumption easy to make.
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Well that was your mistake now wasn't it.

And your paranoia drove you to assume all that. I mean how the feck does simply not addressing a part of a post make you assume anything like that? feck me only a pillock could do as much.
 
Brwned said:
He played well against us, and yes he was brilliant in those 13 matches. Goals-wise not so much, playing-wise yes. It was like Ronaldo in the firsthalf of the 06/07 season.
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If you thought he played well against us, maybe we were watching different games, he was in Park's pocket in both games.

Barca lost to all these teams in La Liga last season:
Villarreal
Getafe
Real Madrid
At Madrid
Villarreal
Betis
Deportivo
Real Madrid
Mallorca

Xavi played 8 of those games and Messi 5, I just do not see how 2 very good players "consistently brilliantly" yet their teams lose those teams.
 
Brwned said:
I said before the Euro's he was the best midfielder in the world. And it was true then, even more so now.

Xavi at the Eruo's wasn't half as good as Xavi last season for Barcelona, again showing you just didn't watch him and are talking out of your arse.

Villareal aren't average, we've drew 0-0 with them 4 times now, showing they're more than just average.
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We lost to Derby last time we played them away, are they a great side now? :confused:

The fact remains that Barca finished 3rd in what everyone thought was a 2 horse race for La Liga last season. I just cannot accept 2 of their most important players were "consistently brilliant" yet they (as a club) failed so miserably.
 
Cal? said:
Clearly it's you who've been blinded by Xavi in the Euros and both of them THIS SEASON. Whilst I agree that they've both been "brilliant" this season they were both mediocre last season.

Teams with 2 top players performing "brilliantly" on a regular basis do not go on to finish 10pts behind average sides like Villarreal.
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You haven't got a clue what you're on about, unfortunately.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Well that was your mistake now wasn't it.

And your paranoia drove you to assume all that. I mean how the feck does simply not addressing a part of a post make you assume anything like that? feck me only a pillock could do as much.
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Well, given your behaviour whenever anyone touches upon Henry, it came as no surprise to me how you reacted when I mentioned Best ever player in the Premiership could easily be a handful of United players.
 
:lol: @ Cal's logic. If 2 players are great the team can't be bad. You seem to forget they also had V.Valdes who was consistently poor and cost them many goals.Their defence was also very weak in Laliga but hey it's Messi's fault
 
Cal, you still haven't proven any of what you've claimed I've said/meant/assumed.

Nor have you actually addressed the original questions that made this thread.

You can't do either can you. It pains you to even consider something outside of CR7, doesn't it.

(note how there's no question marks there, because it's not a question. It's a statement)
 
Cal? said:
Well, given your behaviour whenever anyone touches upon Henry, it came as no surprise to me how you reacted when I mentioned Best ever player in the Premiership could easily be a handful of United players.
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Anyone?

If by anyone you mean you and Ryansgirl, then yes.

And reacted?

If by reacted you mean didn't even address that part of your post, then yes.

And by yes I mean you're a plank.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Cal, you still haven't proven any of what you've claimed I've said/meant/assumed.

Nor have you actually addressed the original questions that made this thread.

You can't do either can you. It pains you to even consider something outside of CR7, doesn't it.

(note how there's no question marks there, because it's not a question. It's a statement)
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I've already explained the basis of my assumption, as I said, it might have been a mistake for me to make that assumption, but your usual behaviour sure made that easy.

Your original question, my answer is "Yes, we could be, but I think that unlikely."
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Anyone?

If by anyone you mean you and Ryansgirl, then yes.

And reacted?

If by reacted you mean didn't even address that part of your post, then yes.

And by yes I mean you're a plank.
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Dismissals are a kind of reaction.

Do grow up, I've tried not to react to your childish name-calling, but it really is getting quite tedious.
 
kouroux said:
:lol: @ Cal's logic. If 2 players are great the team can't be bad. You seem to forget they also had V.Valdes who was consistently poor and cost them many goals.Their defence was also very weak in Laliga but hey it's Messi's fault
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The same V Valdes who conceeded the fewest number of goals in La Liga this season? :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was Messi's fault Barca were crap last season, but he certainly played a part.
 
Cal? said:
If you thought he played well against us, maybe we were watching different games, he was in Park's pocket in both games.

Barca lost to all these teams in La Liga last season:
Villarreal
Getafe
Real Madrid
At Madrid
Villarreal
Betis
Deportivo
Real Madrid
Mallorca

Xavi played 8 of those games and Messi 5, I just do not see how 2 very good players "consistently brilliantly" yet their teams lose those teams.
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Maybe we were watching different games, I thought he was the second most dangerous player on the pitch.

Maybe you should actually watch the games then.

Mallorca

Messi set up Henry's goal, and set up Eto'o's goal. Brilliant. Xavi wasn't playing.

Atletico

Xavi set up Ronaldinho's goal. Dominated the match with 66% possession, Xavi being a key part. Messi didn't play.

Getafe*

Messi and Xavi were both heavily involved for setting up Henry with a golden chance, with Xavi settping it up and Messi playing him in with a backheel. 63%, dominated again. Played well, both of them.

Villareal

Messi won MOTM, Xavi was average.

Real Madrid

They were both outclassed, no arguments there.

Villareal*

Xavi scored a goal, 64% possession, played very well. Messi didn't play.

Betis

Set up Eto'o with a great cross, who hit the bar and Bojan scored it. Not sure who actually won MOTM, but Xavi was Barcelona's best player by far in that match. 68% possession, dominated.

*Didn't actually watch myself.

So that's two poor games by Xavi and Messi, but they were brilliant otherwise. They can be afforded two poor games.
 
Cal? said:
We lost to Derby last time we played them away, are they a great side now? :confused:

The fact remains that Barca finished 3rd in what everyone thought was a 2 horse race for La Liga last season. I just cannot accept 2 of their most important players were "consistently brilliant" yet they (as a club) failed so miserably.
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A one-off. We drew with Villareal 4 times in 2 years, and they deserved the draw each time. We've only ever played them 4 times, and they're unbeaten. They're a bit better than average.


Because you didn't watch them play, obviously.
 
Cal? said:
The same V Valdes who conceeded the fewest number of goals in La Liga this season? :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was Messi's fault Barca were crap last season, but he certainly played a part.
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Valdes has been rubbish this season.
 
Brwned said:
Maybe we were watching different games, I thought he was the second most dangerous player on the pitch.

Maybe you should actually watch the games then.

Mallorca

Messi set up Henry's goal, and set up Eto'o's goal. Brilliant. Xavi wasn't playing.

Atletico

Xavi set up Ronaldinho's goal. Dominated the match with 66% possession, Xavi being a key part. Messi didn't play.

Getafe*

Messi and Xavi were both heavily involved for setting up Henry with a golden chance, with Xavi settping it up and Messi playing him in with a backheel. 63%, dominated again. Played well, both of them.

Villareal

Messi won MOTM, Xavi was average.

Real Madrid

They were both outclassed, no arguments there.

Villareal*

Xavi scored a goal, 64% possession, played very well. Messi didn't play.

Betis

Set up Eto'o with a great cross, who hit the bar and Bojan scored it. Not sure who actually won MOTM, but Xavi was Barcelona's best player by far in that match. 68% possession, dominated.

*Didn't actually watch myself.

So that's two poor games by Xavi and Messi, but they were brilliant otherwise. They can be afforded two poor games.
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We clearly disagree what constitutes a good game if you thought he played well against United.

Let me get this clear - Messi & Xavi are consistently brilliant, Barca finished 3rd (a massive 18pte behind Real) because the rest of the team are not up to standard?

This season they're running away with La Liga with largely the same team mates - why?
 
Cal? said:
I've already explained the basis of my assumption, as I said, it might have been a mistake for me to make that assumption, but your usual behaviour sure made that easy.

Your original question, my answer is "Yes, we could be, but I think that unlikely."
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:D

Excellent, thanks for playing.
 
Cal? said:
How can you have 2 players rated exactly the same and performing exactly the same and one winning the league and one finishing last? By definition, if he finished last, he must have played badly - don't give me ridiculous hypothesis about putting Ronaldo in the Derby team last season or something - most players play at clubs of their level.

Your very first post - 2 months into a good season and you were already calling him the best player ever, if that's not fanboii behaviour, I've no idea what is. :rolleyes:
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Brwned said:
That's rubbish.

Le Tissier scored 30 goals in 93/94, but his team finished 18th. Did he have a poor season?
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You still haven't replied to this yet Cal, proves your theory is rubbish.
 
Cal? said:
The same V Valdes who conceeded the fewest number of goals in La Liga this season? :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was Messi's fault Barca were crap last season, but he certainly played a part.
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:lol: There you prove it that you know nothing about football.Valdes has always been the weak link in Barcelona for several seasons,that same Valdes who has the fewest number of leaked goals.
You can roll your eyes at yourself
 
Cal? said:
We clearly disagree what constitutes a good game if you thought he played well against United.

Let me get this clear - Messi & Xavi are consistently brilliant, Barca finished 3rd (a massive 18pte behind Real) because the rest of the team are not up to standard?

This season they're running away with La Liga with largely the same team mates - why?
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Because Eto'o's not injured any more, Henry's playing much better, and Yaya Toure/Busquets/Keita are doing a much better job of providing a defensive guard in front of the defence, something they lacked last season.
 
Brwned said:
A one-off. We drew with Villareal 4 times in 2 years, and they deserved the draw each time. We've only ever played them 4 times, and they're unbeaten. They're a bit better than average.


Because you didn't watch them play, obviously.
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The main difference is I do not consider having lots of possession, showing some nice touches with little end product as "playing well", perhaps you do.

Whether Villarreal are average isn't the point. Would you disagree that La Liga was seen as a 2 horse race in Summer 2007? Is it not true that Barca was expected to finish in the top 2 in 07/08? Is it not also true that they finished a massive 10pts behind Villarreal?
 
Cal? said:
The main difference is I do not consider having lots of possession, showing some nice touches with little end product as "playing well", perhaps you do.

Whether Villarreal are average isn't the point. Would you disagree that La Liga was seen as a 2 horse race in Summer 2007? Is it not true that Barca was expected to finish in the top 2 in 07/08? Is it not also true that they finished a massive 10pts behind Villarreal?
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It is true, but besides the point.

Barcelona are a top team and played averagely, Villareal are a very good team and played very well, completely irrelevant to how Xavi and Messi played.

And they played very, very well.
 
Cal? said:
Le Tissier didn't have a poor season in 93/94, doesn't mean he was the best player that season though.
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"By definition, if he finished last, he must have played badly..."

Doesn't make sense, that's entirely contradictory.
 
Brwned said:
It is true, but besides the point.

Barcelona are a top team and played averagely, Villareal are a very good team and played very well, completely irrelevant to how Xavi and Messi played.

And they played very, very well.
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You've made your point and I've made mine, let's just leave it at that. I'm bored with this circular argument.

If Messi played "very very well" last season, how would you describe this season?

I think he's playing "very very well" THIS season.
 
Brwned said:
"By definition, if he finished last, he must have played badly..."

Doesn't make sense, that's entirely contradictory.
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Errr... talking about taking quote out of context.

He must have played badly compared to the guy who finished 1st. :rolleyes:
 
Cal? said:
You've made your point and I've made mine, let's just leave it at that. I'm bored with this circular argument.

If Messi played "very very well" last season, how would you describe this season?

I think he's playing "very very well" THIS season.
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On another level to everyone else, phenomenal would be the word.

Better than Ronaldo last season.
 
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