Lionel Messi

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Cal? said:
2 "brilliant" players and yet Barca finished 10pts behind those giants Villarreal. I see... :rolleyes:

As I've already pointed out, Messi's record last season was anything but "brilliant".
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Well yeah, seeing as their main problem last season was having Messi injured for so long and being so poor defensively, it's more than possible for them to both be brilliant. You'd know that if you watched them.

Barcelona still dominated midfields last season, Xavi's job, and with Messi in the team they scored 74 goals, in 32 starts overall. Or 64 goals in the league, in 23 starts.
 
Brwned said:
Well yeah, seeing as their main problem last season was having Messi injured for so long and being so poor defensively, it's more than possible for them to both be brilliant. You'd know that if you watched them.

Barcelona still dominated midfields last season, Xavi's job, and with Messi in the team they scored 74 goals, in 32 starts.
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No point in actually using logic and common sense to fuel your arguement mate, Cal has an innane ability to see through it all and uncover your real Gooner-lovein secret.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
:lol:

The fecking irony.

Firstly, where has ANYONE ever said that Henry was the sole reason why we won things? Show me ONE example or ANY Gooner EVER saying this. Now. Clearly we had a fantastic TEAM which was why we won the things we did.

Notice the word TEAM.

Here's another example, I'll try and explain it real nice and slow for you because you're clearly lacking in the all-round general mental capacity stakes:

- Darren Flectcher, that's a player in your squad, right, has 'won' the Champions League. Fernando Torres hasn't. This, by your loon-logic, means Darren Fletcher (that's your player, in case you're not following) is better.

Are you mentally challenged or something? Seriously, do you even comprehend what you write?

I honestly pity you.

Oh, and as 'I've said before:' the world doesn't revolve around your fanboii obsession with CR7.
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I have talked at least 4-5 times in this thread alone about playing a vital role in a team winning trophies - eg. Ronaldo 07/08, Ronaldinho 04/05, etc.

It appears it's you who fail to comprehend simple English or just read what you want to read.

The irony of accusing me being fanboii when you started this whole wankfest over Messi. :lol:
 
Brwned said:
Well yeah, seeing as their main problem last season was having Messi injured for so long and being so poor defensively, it's more than possible for them to both be brilliant. You'd know that if you watched them.

Barcelona still dominated midfields last season, Xavi's job, and with Messi in the team they scored 74 goals, in 32 starts overall. Or 64 goals in the league, in 23 starts.
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Messi played 28 times whilst Xavi played 34 times in the 38 game La Liga season.

For reference: Rooney played 27 times and Ronaldo 34 times in the 38 game Premiership season.

Barcelona finished 18pts behind Real Madrid and 10pts behind Villarreal.
 
Cal? said:
Messi played 28 times whilst Xavi played 34 times in the 38 game La Liga season.

For reference: Rooney played 27 times and Ronaldo 34 times in the 38 game Premiership season.

Barcelona finished 18pts behind Real Madrid and 10pts behind Villarreal.
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Have you got a point?
 
Brwned said:
Have you got a point?
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The point is pretty obvious.

Messi did not miss that many games, so blaming Barca's complete failure in La Liga last season on his injury alone is ridiculous.

United also missed our vital players as often as Barca missed Messi or Xavi and won everything important.
 
vijay said:
How can Ronaldo can be rated a better Messi currently based on last years brilliance.? and last year should correspond only to first half of last year, when Ronaldo was better? But you've posted the same content atleast five or six times in this thread.
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Because Ronaldo reached heights that Messi currently hasn't. He may well yet given his talent but so far Messi only promises to be a truly world class player. Ronaldo has ably demonstrated that HE IS a world class player.
 
Cal? said:
Unless Uefa start organising a Uefa Rubbish Teams League and invite the bottom sides of the Prem, La Liga, etc etc into it, there really isn't a way to compare the bottom sides.

We just have to make do with comparing the top sides.
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I get your point perfectly but you still can't assimilate an entire league of 20 teams to the top 3 clubs.The top teams in general are better in England there is no doubt that.
 
Cal? said:
The point is pretty obvious.

Messi did not miss that many games, so blaming Barca's complete failure in La Liga last season on his injury alone is ridiculous.

United also missed our vital players as often as Barca missed Messi or Xavi and won everything important.
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Did I do that?
 
kouroux said:
I get your point perfectly but you still can't assimilate an entire league of 20 teams to the top 3 clubs.The top teams in general are better in England there is no doubt that.
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Well, no, if you look at the bookies, United's odds against the bottom sides is very similar to Barca's odds against their bottom sides.

It suggests the bookies thing the gap from top to bottom in the 2 league is similar.
 
Cal? said:
I have talked at least 4-5 times in this thread alone about playing a vital role in a team winning trophies - eg. Ronaldo 07/08, Ronaldinho 04/05, etc.

It appears it's you who fail to comprehend simple English or just read what you want to read.

The irony of accusing me being fanboii when you started this whole wankfest over Messi. :lol:
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:lol:

Go back to the first page and re-read my first post. Then re-read it another 10 times. Then explain how anything in those two questions betrays any fanboii nature. :lol::lol::lol:

Then when you're done embarrassing yourself go and look up the word irony, because you clearly don't understand what it means.

Hopefully you've now learned.

Oh, as for the rest - you've once again completely missed the point. You're STILL on the wrong page.

Here, we're talking about a players individual ability, that is; their skillset, talent and their performances. A player, ala Le Tissier, can be absolutely brilliant yet his CLUB/TEAM may never win anything. This has nothing to do with Le Tissier's individual skill, or affect how good-a player he is/was.

So to break it down one more time - a players individual skill is not affected/altered/changed in any way by his CLUB'S success. If a club wins a trophy it doesn't somehow mean some other player is suddenly worse because his club hasn't.

Do you understand? You still don't?
 
Cal? said:
I think you did.
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I think I didn't.

I said the main reasons were Messi being injured and them being rubbish defensively.

They scored on average 2.3 goals per game with Messi in the team, they scored 1.2 goals per game with Messi not in the team. So with Messi starting those other 15 games, they most likely would've won more games.

Them being rubbish defensively has nothing to do with Messi or Savi, thereofre making it possible for them having brilliant seasons without Barca having a brilliant season, and that's what happened.
 
Cal? said:
No, but do you have a better way to compare Derby with Levante?
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By watching them both play...

La Liga's just as strong as the Premier League outside the top four, if not slightly stronger.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
:lol:

Go back to the first page and re-read my first post. Then re-read it another 10 times. Then explain how anything in those two questions betrays any fanboii nature. :lol::lol::lol:

Then when you're done embarrassing yourself go and look up the word irony, because you clearly don't understand what it means.

Hopefully you've now learned.

Oh, as for the rest - you've once again completely missed the point. You're STILL on the wrong page.

Here, we're talking about a players individual ability, that is; their skillset, talent and their performances. A player, ala Le Tissier, can be absolutely brilliant yet his CLUB/TEAM may never win anything. This has nothing to do with Le Tissier's individual skill, or affect how good-a player he is/was.

So to break it down one more time - a players individual skill is not affected/altered/changed in any way by his CLUB'S success. If a club wins a trophy it doesn't somehow mean some other player is suddenly worse because his club hasn't.

Do you understand? You still don't?
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What's so difficult to understand about the team being the sum of its parts (the players)? :rolleyes:
 
kouroux said:
I'm sure you'd find more or less the same odds in much weaker leagues when bottom teams oppose top teams. It's not something you can use to compare them
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That implies the gap from top to bottom is similar?

Is it so wrong?

The gap between United & Porto being similar to West Brom & Trofense?
 
Brwned said:
I think I didn't.

I said the main reasons were Messi being injured and them being rubbish defensively.

They scored on average 2.3 goals per game with Messi in the team, they scored 1.2 goals per game with Messi not in the team. So with Messi starting those other 15 games, they most likely would've won more games.

Them being rubbish defensively has nothing to do with Messi or Savi, thereofre making it possible for them having brilliant seasons without Barca having a brilliant season, and that's what happened.
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You did say the main reason was Messi being injured, along with something else...

Since Messi only missed 10 games over the whole season, it cannot be used as the defining factor of their season, as I pointed out, Rooney missed more games for us...
 
Cal? said:
What's so difficult to understand about the team being the sum of its parts (the players)? :rolleyes:
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There's nothing wrong with that, and that's my fecking point you dipshit. A TEAM IS THE SUM OF ITS PARTS. These include THE WHOLE GOD DAMN SQUAD, THE COACHING STAFF, THE MANAGER, THE BOARD, THE FANS and the MONEY THEY BRING IN, and a THOUSAND OTHER FACTORS.

Everything plays its fecking part. And just because everything works out doesn't somehow make someone a better fecking player. Christ how can you not understand that?

Here's one last final explanation:

Player A is putting in performances of 8/10. His club finishes last.
Player B is putting in performances of 8/10. His club wins a trophy.

Both players are rated the same. But by your logic player B is better because his CLUB has won a trophy. But this logic would clearly be wrong, as several other people have pointed out.

Oh and:

Go back to the first page and re-read my first post. Then re-read it another 10 times. Then explain how anything in those two questions betrays any fanboii nature.

Then when you're done embarrassing yourself go and look up the word irony, because you clearly don't understand what it means.

Hopefully you've now learned.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Here, we're talking about a players individual ability, that is; their skillset, talent and their performances. A player, ala Le Tissier, can be absolutely brilliant yet his CLUB/TEAM may never win anything. This has nothing to do with Le Tissier's individual skill, or affect how good-a player he is/was.

So to break it down one more time - a players individual skill is not affected/altered/changed in any way by his CLUB'S success. If a club wins a trophy it doesn't somehow mean some other player is suddenly worse because his club hasn't.

Do you understand? You still don't?
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Le Tissier was a good player but a long way away from being a world class player. His lack of ambition was just one part of the reason for this.

While agreeing that Messi could well turn out to be in the class on Best/Pele/Whatever I currently consider him in the "extremely talented but still not fulfilled this potential" category. Unlike Ronaldo who had a season that made him World Player of the Year by almost universal acclaim.

Messi could/should get to this level but currently hasn't. Superb with promise of better to come yes. World Player of the Year? Not yet.

And individual skill can be expressed better within an extremely good side so you can't totally separate individual and team qualities.
 
Anderson Searl said:
:lol:

Messi discussions are the funniest things in world sport.
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Specially when the discussion diverges so much :lol:

Cal? said:
That implies the gap from top to bottom is similar?

Is it so wrong?

The gap between United & Porto being similar to West Brom & Trofense?
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It can only tell you that the gap is similar like you said but it wouldn't tell you which bottom or mid table team is better than another.
 
kouroux said:
Specially when the discussion diverges so much :lol:
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That's what I mean the most, the hobbit's name alone brings out such outrage amongst supporters, people who cannot stand him, and neutral people like me who have no opinion of the lad.

Now it's about car tires and pigeons... porno will be next.

Messi should subsitute the word Crazy in the English language.
 
Cal? said:
You did say the main reason was Messi being injured, along with something else...

Since Messi only missed 10 games over the whole season, it cannot be used as the defining factor of their season, as I pointed out, Rooney missed more games for us...
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Exactly, so it wasn't the sole reason. So you were wrong.

Rooney started 25 games, Messi 23.

Stop changing the argument. Don't you admit it's possible for Messi and Xavi to both have had brilliant seasons while Barcelona had an average one?
 
cesc's_mullet said:
There's nothing wrong with that, and that's my fecking point you dipshit. A TEAM IS THE SUM OF ITS PARTS. These include THE WHOLE GOD DAMN SQUAD, THE COACHING STAFF, THE MANAGER, THE BOARD, THE FANS and the MONEY THEY BRING IN, and a THOUSAND OTHER FACTORS.

Everything plays its fecking part. And just because everything works out doesn't somehow make someone a better fecking player. Christ how can you not understand that?

Here's one last final explanation:

Player A is putting in performances of 8/10. His club finishes last.
Player B is putting in performances of 8/10. His club wins a trophy.

Both players are rated the same. But by your logic player B is better because his CLUB has won a trophy. But this logic would clearly be wrong, as several other people have pointed out.

Oh and:

Go back to the first page and re-read my first post. Then re-read it another 10 times. Then explain how anything in those two questions betrays any fanboii nature.

Then when you're done embarrassing yourself go and look up the word irony, because you clearly don't understand what it means.

Hopefully you've now learned.
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How can you have 2 players rated exactly the same and performing exactly the same and one winning the league and one finishing last? By definition, if he finished last, he must have played badly - don't give me ridiculous hypothesis about putting Ronaldo in the Derby team last season or something - most players play at clubs of their level.

Your very first post - 2 months into a good season and you were already calling him the best player ever, if that's not fanboii behaviour, I've no idea what is. :rolleyes:
 
Cal? said:
How can you have 2 players rated exactly the same and performing exactly the same and one winning the league and one finishing last? By definition, if he finished last, he must have played badly - don't give me ridiculous hypothesis about putting Ronaldo in the Derby team last season or something - most players play at clubs of their level.

Your very first post - 2 months into a good season and you were already calling him the best player ever, if that's not fanboii behaviour, I've no idea what is. :rolleyes:
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That's rubbish.

Le Tissier scored 30 goals in 93/94, but his team finished 18th. Did he have a poor season?
 
Brwned said:
Exactly, so it wasn't the sole reason. So you were wrong.

Rooney started 25 games, Messi 23.

Stop changing the argument. Don't you admit it's possible for Messi and Xavi to both have had brilliant seasons while Barcelona had an average one?
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No, clearly Barca had such a terrible season because most of their players failed to perform to their expected standard, that includes Messi & Xavi.

You can argue Messi's underperformance was due to his injuries, but that does not mean he had a "brilliant" season.
 
There's no point in discussing with him, all he does is count trophies, I doubt he actually watches football. He probably just checks the amount of trophies won by said player on wikipedia and makes up his mind on that basis. In his world O'Shea is better than Gerrard.
 
Cal? said:
No, clearly Barca had such a terrible season because most of their players failed to perform to their expected standard, that includes Messi & Xavi.

You can argue Messi's underperformance was due to his injuries, but that does not mean he had a "brilliant" season.
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Yes, most of their players failed to perform. Messi and Xavi didn't.

You're just arguing for the sake of it, everyone knows you didn't watch Barcelona much last season, or this season, and your opinion therefore is useless.
 
Brwned said:
Yes, most of their players failed to perform. Messi and Xavi didn't.

You're just arguing for the sake of it, everyone knows you didn't watch Barcelona much last season, or this season, and your opinion therefore is useless.
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You can't have it both ways, either Messi's season was hit by injuries so he performed badly; or he wasn't much affected by the injuries and he performed brilliantly.

Make up your mind.
 
You know what Brwned, you're beginning to sound like those Goons who claimed that it was never Henry's fault when they bottled it in Europe time and again.

It's always all the other players in the team's fault.

Now Messi is ALWAYS brilliant, Barca finishing 18pt behind Madrid is everyone else's fault.
 
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