Bizarrely I was just about to say Alves is probably the best player in the world with Xavi and Messi not far behind him. He makes Barca practically impossible to beat the way he constantly pushes forward and brutalizes opposition wingers, he just dominates his side of the pitch. He makes it so easy for Messi. He'll be the most iimportant player for Barcelona if they are to win the Champions League and i think United wouldn't stand a chance against them with Alves. It'll need a very narrow side like Inter or Pool to take them down.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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Barcelona are having a terrific season! That's what I've said many times now - it isn't just Messi, his supporting cast are playing football that is pure class.
Let me give you an example of why what you've said earlier is biased. When Ronaldinho tore Chelsea a new one he was constantly going up against the best 'dm' on the planet backed up by arguably the best backline in the world with pre-injury Cech in goal. He made mugs of all of them. At the same time, who was on Messi out on the flank? Do you see the disparity in quality?
Messi is the best in the world during this season to date, I don't think that's disputable, but the way the team around him isn't being considered or factored in is, quite frankly, daft.
Yeah, just like Barcelona were going to slaughter us last season, that worked out well didn't it?
And yes, Alves has been phenomenal and has been so for the last two years, but it's bizarre to suggest he's been better than Messi.
Alves dominates against opposition wingers and full backs, Messi dominates the whole backline.
You figure out which one is harder, and which one is harder to do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranklyVulgar View Post
No doubt, Ronaldo was a phenomenon but quite a different player to Messi. His eyes were always for the goal but Messi is more for the team and i think that is what gives him the edge over even Ronaldo.
And it's not like Ronaldo's presence on the pitch and or build up play didn't result in goals for his teammates. He's not Inzaghi FFS.
Originally Posted by FranklyVulgar View Post
No doubt, Ronaldo was a phenomenon but quite a different player to Messi. His eyes were always for the goal but Messi is more for the team and i think that is what gives him the edge over even Ronaldo.
That might be because Ronaldo was a striker and a number 9.
And it's not like Ronaldo's presence on the pitch and or build up play didn't result in goals for his teammates. He's not Inzaghi FFS.
I think right now I wouldn't say Messi's better than Ronaldinho at his best but they're probably level and I'd say fat Ronaldo's better than both still.
So Ronaldo > Ronaldinho = Messi
So Ronaldo > Ronaldinho = Messi
Two great seasons doesn't make you an all time great. Ronaldinho shouldn't be mentioned in the same line as Fat Ronaldo or Zizou.
Messi is more productive than Ronaldinho was and arguably just as entertaining to watch.
I'd really like to see Evra vs Alves.
Barca as a whole are in a teriffic form now but my point through out this thread was Messi's standards never dipped, even when his team were shite, except this season he might win some trophies.
Messi for your information is not restricted to playing only on flanks and often drifts in the middle, same with Ronaldinho as both started on the flanks and made diagonal runs across the pitch.
Comparing Messi with Ronaldinho is more or less the same like comparing Ronaldo with Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho had more balance with his either foot, better in crossing the ball, set pieces, strong in the air overall a bigger goal threat but Ronaldo and Messi can blow away any opposition effortlessly than Ronaldinho even though their attacking options are predictable.
Messi and Ronaldo have a similar playing style...He like Ronaldo started his career by taking on players everytime he had the ball at his feet but over the last couple of seasons or so he has become more cerebral passing the ball more and stepping up the tempo only selectively, similar to the manner Ronaldo evolved at Inter compared to earlier his days at Barca, not many great goals but a better overall influence through out the match. Comparisons between them looks fair at the moment, the only difference being Ronaldo didn't miss out months during midseason and swept all those awards and an injury prone Messi finishing as the runner up.
You learn new things every day, is it not?
I don't think anyone is denying that Barca have a fantastic team, a very strong squad and that is a major reason for their success so far this season but Messi is the key player for this side. When he is not playing they really are not he same, despite still having all that world class talent.
I posted a stat previously in this thread but i can't find it but it was roughly to do with the teams productivity in relation to Messi. Without Messi the team managed around one goal a game. With Messi they average 3 goals a game. or 3 goals every 70 mins.
I tried to find the actual statistic but this thread is so big it would take me about a day to read back and find it but his contribution to the team has been outstanding, not just his contribution but his influence as anyone who watched the game on sunday could tell you and not for the first time this season.
He has came off the bench before to immediately impact games, single handedly turn things back in Barcas favour and do what the rest of the world class ensemble couldn't. That is why he is especially coming in for justified high praise.
Really? So why is his productivity this season a light year above what it has ever been before? Are you seriously not going to give the team around him no credit at all?
It's not a crime to both praise Messi and the team that he is in, you know?
They have a central striker who has a ratio of 1:1
A left-sided attacker who is hitting his Arsenal standard of performance
Xavi, arguably the best midfielder in the world pulling the strings.
Yaya constantly supplying those around him with quality pass after pass.
Dani Alves who takes two men to stop in his own right overlapping on Messi's side of the pitch.
Iniesta who is probably the best substitute in the game.
And a considerable cherry on top of this cake in Lionel Messi, who alone takes two or three men to stop. Now, when you combine these factors together, what do you think you've got? Messi the one-man army, or Messi playing in a team who have attacking threats from every conceivable angle across the the final third?
Not when Ronaldinho was there. Messi was a lot more restricted then than now. Ronaldinho was the focal point of everything when he was in his pomp there and he freed up yards of space for those around him.
Hyperbole. Also incredibly premature. The difference between the three here is that Ronaldinho was the star man giving the star performances against anyone he faced - not just the goal or assist, which is wholly different. Messi has it all to do in this regard and C.Ronaldo has more of it to do to get up there and match, say, Ronaldinho's performance against Chelsea or AC Milan a few years back.
Ronaldo didn't evolve - as he always had that in his locker and was utilised in a completely different manner to suit the teams he played in as evidenced by his performances for his NT before he had even set foot in Italy, particularly at Copa America '97.
You don't magically gain the myriad of skills he displayed for Inter vis-a-vis Barcelona in a couple of months, by the way. Those skills were always there. His performances next to Romario in the build up to WC '98 further displayed what he was capable of with an able partner rather than a relatively weak supporting cast.
I would argue that Barcelona have many keys to unlock the same doors, tbh.. maybe they dished out copies.
Stats can be moulded to suit any argument and considerations around them removed as the user sees fit. For example, where does Alves' contribution in the stats you mention come in? The amount of times he provides the space for Messi to run riot in is alarming. The article I posted earlier in the thread highlights the impact of Alves on Barcelona's entire attack, the man is frightening overlapping prospect who warrants a tad less attention than Messi in his own right. It all adds up.
La Liga has no great 1on1 defenders, does it? It's not like Messi has taken apart a prime Javier Zanetti or what not during his escapades and when Alves enables yer man Messi to isolate his full-back so regularly as he does, it's a party for Messi who at the best of times would need exceptional full-backs on him.
I think Messi is brilliant, personally, but I remain objective and keep things in perspective. If he does the same things he's done in La Liga in the Champions League, then I'll be able to take what you've been saying on board, but doing it in a weakened La Liga against not so fearsome defenders/defences requires a pinch of salt for me at the moment.
To make this point abundantly clear just in case it is misinterpreted, I'll cite Serie A for Maradona and Ronaldo and the PL last season for C.Ronaldo. At the time that Maradona took the league by storm it was regarded as the hardest, toughest league with the most notably great defenders in concentration in the world, the same goes for Ronaldo (as previously listed players will attest) when Cristiano delivered in the PL last season it had to be rated as the best in Europe, what with 3 semi finalists in the CL and an all-English final as well as some of the best one-on-one defenders in the game. In that sense, Messi is a victim of circumstance. Can you name three great centre-backs and three great one-on-one full-backs in all of La Liga? Should that count for nothing? Messi will face sterner tests to overcome in Europe, I'm not sure you could say the same for the three players I've mentioned in this paragraph at the time they were on top, in fact, I'm certain you can't.
That's why I think a sense of perspective is required here.
I'm not sure, Alves stared off slow but has really found his stride. However don't you think linking up with Messi might have as much of an impact on Alves as it does with Messi?
Stats can be moulded sure but you cannot deny the one concerning the threat Barca provide with and without Messi. With him they average 3 goals in 70mins and without about a goal a game or something. At the weekend Alves was playing and wasn't his usual brilliant self, when Messi came on it elevated him and he played much better. More to do with the freedom he gets as players flock to close off Messi opening up the right hand side and other areas of the pitch. That is the presence he brings to the side and Alves is a big benefactor of this.
People thought Pep and Barca were crazy for spending what they did but now it can be seen as a master stroke. As teams double and triple up on Messi what you need is Alves being able to get beyond him and offer a simelarly direct threat with flair. The right hand side with those two is a joy to watch.
Stats can be moulded sure but you cannot deny the one concerning the threat Barca provide with and without Messi. With him they average 3 goals in 70mins and without about a goal a game or something. At the weekend Alves was playing and wasn't his usual brilliant self, when Messi came on it elevated him and he played much better. More to do with the freedom he gets as players flock to close off Messi opening up the right hand side and other areas of the pitch. That is the presence he brings to the side and Alves is a big benefactor of this.
People thought Pep and Barca were crazy for spending what they did but now it can be seen as a master stroke. As teams double and triple up on Messi what you need is Alves being able to get beyond him and offer a simelarly direct threat with flair. The right hand side with those two is a joy to watch.
Alves was the same at Sevilla, I think being in such an exceptional team
has just enabled him to showcase all of his talent to the fullest, not dissimilar to Messi.. I think Messi and Alves are a tandem, not neccesarily a symbiot as neither needs the other to function, but a combo that is the best in football and a nightmare to stop. You simply cannot have a full eye on either of them at any time as a defensive unit and they both definitely benefit from that.
I'd have to look into the stats myself to be convinced of them. I believe mitigating factors are omitted to make it look more splendid than is.
Messi is a big cog in a big machine. He plays his role, but so do many others in making them what they are and enabling so many players to have a phenomenal season at the same time. There's just too many players on top of their game there to ignore, imo.
Alves was the same at Sevilla, I think being in such an exceptional team
I think Messi and Alves are a tandem, not neccesarily a symbiot as neither needs the other to function, but a combo that is the best in football and a nightmare to stop. You simply cannot have a full eye on either of them at any time as a defensive unit and they both definitely benefit from that.
I'd have to look into the stats myself to be convinced of them. I believe mitigating factors are omitted to make it look more splendid than is.
Messi is a big cog in a big machine. He plays his role, but so do many others in making them what they are and enabling so many players to have a phenomenal season at the same time. There's just too many players on top of their game there to ignore, imo.
Nobody is ignoring the impact of Guardiola, he's done a great job so far but Messi is such a stand out. Eto'o has scored a lot and his work rate has been exeptional but he has scored in patches and hasn't been at his brilliant best. Henry has been good but again not his brilliant best, he'll never get to that level at Barca.
Xavi and Iniesta are both smashing players but despite all these great attacking players Messi is head and shoulders above them and they are all happy to admit that, he takes the team to another level, it's as plain as day to see.
I only partly agree. I'll agree fully if his form transfers to the CL and he is intergral and intrinsic to their hope of winning the trophy or winning key games against quality opposition, of which there is none in La Liga.
How much better do you really think the Premiership is? I think you are guilty of either under rating la liga or over rating the premiership. YOu talk about the Premiership having great defenders, outside of the top 4 i would say there arn't many. Even in the top 4 i would only say Chelsea and United can seriously boast having genuine world class at the back.
The rest of the teams are generally woeful defensively. To compare it to the 80's early 90s serie A defenses isn't realistic. Premiership is a great league but over all quality between it La Liga and Serie A is very very close.
The fact remains that Messi has never scored against Premiership teams, and at least it looks like there are 5 teams in the Premiership which looks great (United) to decent (Villa, Arse). La Liga this season has one team that looks great (Barca) and a whole load of mediocrity (Madrid, Valencia, Seville & co)...
Not at all. I have watched La Liga for years, I need no educating whatsoever on it. It has had some fantastic defenders and defensive units over the years and some absolutely shambolic ones as well. The Valencia side of the early 00's was one of the best units in the world and the likes of Deportivo and so on had quality defenders. It's not like that now. As I said before, go ahead and name 3 great CB's in that league.. or 3 great full-backs.
The PL has far better in both departments, not to mention a more pragmatic approach to dealing with dribblers of the ball. Liga invites attack vs attack, and there is only going to be one winner in that instance.
And, ironically, from the gist of your post, it's you who is underrating the defensive quality of the PL. Last season was one of the most dominant a league has had in the CL with 3 from 4 semi-finalists being English, not dissimilar to Liga in the early 00's when it was clearly the best and had sides like the aformentioned Depor and Valencia in it.
I expect Frankly to ignore your post.
How many great CB or FB can you name in the prem or Serie A?
I guess Villareal were defensively rotten when United couldn't score in how many games is it now against them?
Only United, Liverpool and Chelsea have exellent defensive records in the Premiership and typically you point to a couple of Madrid and Barca players as the only good defenders in the whole of La Liga as if Messi and co are coming up against a bunch of semi amateurs whilst Ronaldo and Rooney are facing world class defenses.
I guess Villareal were defensively rotten when United couldn't score in how many games is it now against them?
Only United, Liverpool and Chelsea have exellent defensive records in the Premiership and typically you point to a couple of Madrid and Barca players as the only good defenders in the whole of La Liga as if Messi and co are coming up against a bunch of semi amateurs whilst Ronaldo and Rooney are facing world class defenses.
You haven't answered the question since it was asked, man.
which one?
Frankly the organization of Premiership teams are much better than Spanish teams, it's obvious. You don't have to have great defenders to put 10 men behind the ball and defend with discipline. Look at teams like Bolton and Boro, all pretty bad teams but can make it difficult for United and Arsenal.
Numancia are the only team that defended like that against Barca for 1 half and it worked but they crumbled in the second.
Numancia are the only team that defended like that against Barca for 1 half and it worked but they crumbled in the second.
I'm pretty sure if you look at every game Barca have played the oppostion has lined up with 1 up front in almost all of them.
Spanish teams being more attacking doesn't mean they are suicidal. No team has went on and hammered teams like this in a long long time. The reason so many teams have been defeated comprehensively is because Barca have scored early very often, making teams who want to try and take anything from the game open up and try and score which sometimes results in them getting hammered.
Some games have been very tight and Barca have scored more goals in the last 10 minutes than any other in the league.
And that statistic i was talking about is as follows or at least it was when i posted it origionally, it could be greater or lesser at this stage. On average when Messi plays for Barca they score every 25mins. When he doesn't play they score every 73 mins.
As posted last season when people were comparing messi and ronaldo, messi has that footballing brain few players ever have. Like scholes he is able to visualise the game around him, noting players positions when he receives the ball but un-like scholes he is able to run at, and beat players like giggs. When you put the two elements together you have the ingredients for the complete footballer.
I truelly believe if messi stays free of any serious injury we will be witnessing the evolutions of a player who will potentially sit at the head table of football along with maradona, pele & best. The only player i have ever considered worthy of potentially attending that top table before now was Ronaldo before injury and outside influences.
I truelly believe if messi stays free of any serious injury we will be witnessing the evolutions of a player who will potentially sit at the head table of football along with maradona, pele & best. The only player i have ever considered worthy of potentially attending that top table before now was Ronaldo before injury and outside influences.
Yep, I agree with that.
It's how we played with Saha in the team in 06/07 as well, got in a early goal and then just picked them apart from then on.
Psmith is right in that the team's in La Liga aren't as good at defending as other Premier League teams, IMO.
Both are factors in how Barcelona have scored so many goals, but the former is more important IMO.
what's all this dick-riding on messi and barca these days. we beat them last year and we'll do the same if we come up against them this year. i'm not scared of them at all. so what if they're scoring for fun in a defensively pathetic league. beat us in the CL over 2 legs and then i'll get my kneepads and blow them to utopia, but until then let's concentrate on our own players and season.
This is a football forum, and Barcelona are currently the on-form team in world football.
It would seem logical to discuss it.
It would seem logical to discuss it.
It would seem logical, except the fact that no one bothered to discuss Real Madrid this time last season.
As I've pointed out, after 21 games, Barca have 3 more points this season than Real Madrid did at the same stage last season.
Don't talk rubbish.
West Brom, Newcastle and Hull and are the three teams with the most goals conceded this season - 44, 40 and 46 respectively.
On the other hand the three teams with the most goals conceded in La Liga are Numancia, Sporting Gijon and Mallorca with 43, 44 and 39 goals conceded respectively.
You clearly no feck all about La Liga.
Agree in part though believe messi to be best in the world at the moment by a fair distance, though feel people are getting carried away with barca and believe if we continue to steadilly gain momentum we will be their equal if we were to meet.
Best attack, against best defence in the world
But we also have berb, rooney & ronaldo
They weren't anywhere near as entertaining.
Whoop-tee-doo... on form means shit without trophies. United are presently the undisputed CHAMPIONS OF EVERYTHING.
minus the UEFA Super Cup of course
That's probably true.
It's not really the same situation.
Barcelona currently possess the best centre midfielder on the planet, the most talented footballer for years, an unbelievable full back in Alves and a ridiculous strike force which has been scoring all sorts of goals. As a unit, the team has been fecking scary.
There were no such stand out performers during Madrid's title success and, whilst the points difference is negligible between the two teams in their respective seasons, Barcelona are dominating the league to the extent that it's a bit silly.
Barca are 12pts clear of Madrid, Madrid were 9pts clear of Barca this time last season.
But I agree with the rest of it...
Probably the fact they have scored like 20+ more goals and the most entertaining team in world football? Real Madrid last season were more machine whereas this Barca team is just incredible to watch. Like KingEric7 has pointed out as well unbelievable quality within the squad as well
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