Lionel Messi

[Fortitude]

Messi at 18 or 19 did tear apart the likes of Chelsea, Juventus, Bayern, Real Madrid, Werder to name a few, the best he came up against comparable to the Italian league of '98, if you choose the spread the opposition around. If Ronaldinho can do the damage against the Milan few years back, I dont see any reason why Messi with more pace and flair would fluff had he been match fit and played in the match.

Don't be silly.

Big names on paper, but only Chelsea of that bunch were anything impressive. Besides which, saying he tore anything up against them is an exaggeration. He played well, is about right.

Fat Ronaldo at Barcelona was incredible but unlike Messi he never really dominated full games. Spainish defenders were able to keep him quiet predominantly but he did the damage in just 10 or 20 seconds. Another point as a striker he played closer to the penalty box, once he breezed in to the box there wasnt any chance of fouling him whilst Messi got more horrible fouls in his first two seasons as he often picked up the ball from the half way line.

I've seen you make this statement a number of times and it's an over-simplification by extreme measure. Ronaldo was often tracked by 3 players at a time and the ball rarely got through to him with any chance of him being able to use it without being closed down. The moments he did get the ball and could turn or take it in his stride, he came alive and was absolutely devestating. What you're actually referring to are the 10-20 seconds it took him to score a goal.. not his output during a game.

Playing through the middle of a side is far harder than working your way from a wing. Less space, more bodies and more immediate pressure from every angle.

At Inter Milan when he played in a free role behind the striker, he was devastating, but defenders were able to punish him as often he played away from the goal and one full season of kicking around he was never the same player again.

He was never the same after his knee blew out, nothing to do with the kickings he got. With each knee blow-out his trajectory towards the highest pantheon of the game steadily faded away.

At the moment Messi comes closer to Ronaldo of Inter, this season so far ironically the first without injuries his strike rate now is on par with Ronaldo of 96/97 not sure whether he can sustain it for the next four months. One more great season and a good world cup he should surpass Ronaldo.

He really isn't, though. He's doing fantastically well, but Ronaldo was on another level, the one where he was being rated as the best ever to play the game for a period of time.

 

[vijay]

Well, he wasn't totally anonymous, but he didn't score and Barca lost the tie both times against English clubs. (3 times if you add the group stage results).

Basically he's yet to score against English clubs in his career.

Over the last 5 El Clasico, Barca have 1 win, 1 draw and 3 defeats against Real Madrid.

Last season it was two defeats, like Liverpool, Real Madrid were lucky as Messi just returned from another injury. In the season before the last it was a win and a draw. Prior to that one it was one all. In the El Classico when Ronaldinho got the standing ovation, Messi was the best player from both sides put together for more than an hour or so before he got subbed, on the same pitch that had the beefed up Galatico squad along with Ronaldinho, Xavi and Eto. In the second leg Madrid won 4-2 but Messi didn't play in the match. I cannot see any other 19 year old dominating the big stage barring Fat Ronaldo in his prime.

 

[Cal?]

The difference there being Barca and Inter both broke the world record to get Goofy Ronaldo and they had to play him every match, and he got burnt out sooner than expected. As for Messi, Barca had the luxury to wrap him under the wool and groom him methodically unleashing him only in big games.

Cannot figure out any problem in Messi's record against English clubs, the only stumbling block being his injuries. He was the best player on the pitch against Chelsea or Manchester United and agaisnt Liverpool it was his first match after injury and was barely match fit. Goals..yes but in terms of dominating an opponent be it English or Welsh he's always in top brass.

Include those games, that makes 8 games against English sides and ZERO goal.

 

[Cal?]

Last season it was two defeats, like Liverpool, Real Madrid were lucky as Messi just returned from another injury. In the season prior to that it was a win and a draw. In the season before that one it was one all. In the El Classico when Ronaldinho got the standing ovation, Messi was the best player from both sides put together for more than an hour or so before he got subbed, on the same pitch that had the beefed up Galatico squad along with Ronaldinho, Xavi and Eto. In the second leg Madrid won 4-2 but Messi didn't play in the match. I cannot see any othe 19 year old dominating the big stage barring Fat Ronaldo in his prime.

When Real win, they were lucky, when Barca win, they fully deserved it.

I wonder why Ronaldinho got the standing ovation if Messi was the best player on the pitch, those Madrid fans must be blind.

 

[vijay]

Don't be silly.

Big names on paper, but only Chelsea of that bunch were anything impressive. Besides which, saying he tore anything up against them is an exaggeration. He played well, is about right.

Messi dominated against those teams, was fearsome when ever he was running with the ball, more often the best player on the pitch on both sides put together even with big fancy names playing in their pomp. Played well is simplification.

He really isn't, though. He's doing fantastically well, but Ronaldo was on another level, the one where he was being rated as the best ever to play the game for a period of time.

As for Fat Ronaldo, the comparisons with Maradona came up only after he finished his first full season at Inter. I dont think Fat Ronaldo was at some different level, compared to Messi, we are not talking about Henry here mind although Ronaldo was a better footballer than Messi at the same age.

 

[vijay]

Include those games, that makes 8 games against English sides and ZERO goal.

Was Messi played as a striker?
How many full games he played on the pitch against English teams?
How many games he was match fit?

For the third question it was just three games and we all saw how devastating he was!

 

[vijay]

When Real win, they were lucky, when Barca win, they fully deserved it.

I wonder why Ronaldinho got the standing ovation if Messi was the best player on the pitch, those Madrid fans must be blind.

Basically Ronaldinho got a standing ovation for those two goals, Messi was subbed five or six minutes before Ronaldinho scored his first, and through out the time when he was on the pitch he was their best player.

Real Madrid for the last three seasons were incredibly shite, lucky to win the league in the last two seasons.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Messi is doing well this season, but you should at least wait till he finishes this season and wins somethintg before jumping to conclusions.

I saw that volley last night, there was no defender anywhere near him, it's ridiculous to suggest Ronaldo would have "fallen over for the penalty".

Fallen wasn't the correct word, but Messi was clipped (unintentionally) by the defender, and if that was Ronaldo he'd have gone to the ground.

Messi has always done well, not just this season, but his injuries have always hampered him, this season he's finally injury free and getting a good run of games to show his brilliance. I'm in no way arguing that Ronaldo was the worlds best player in 07/08, but I just think Messi is the better player.

 

[Fortitude]

Messi dominated against those teams, was fearsome when ever he was running with the ball, more often the best player on the pitch on both sides put together even with big fancy names playing in their pomp. Played well is simplification.

Ridiculous statement. Subjective at best.

As for Fat Ronaldo, the comparisons with Maradona came up only after he finished his first full season at Inter. I dont think Fat Ronaldo was at some different level, compared to Messi, we are not talking about Henry here mind although Ronaldo was a better footballer than Messi at the same age.

Ronaldo was at a different level, though, which is the point. He didn't have the supporting cast that Messi has, either. Barcelona are a sublime attacking unit. Yaya, Keita, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Eto'o, Alves and then add Messi! Plus they are an attacking team, so you will often see opposing teams not knowing who to mark or where to go to contain so many attacking threats. It was never like that for Ronaldo, who basically given the ball and expected to make the magic happen, not dissimilar to Maradona at Napoli in that regard, actually. Plus Inter were a defensive team, not an attacking one.

 

[vijay]

Ridiculous statement. Subjective at best.

Had Messi put up just good performances against top teams, I cannot see any reason how he can get puffed up so much, especially when the likes of Capello, Hitzfeld and others openly said he was comparable with Maradona and Ronaldo at 18, when he tonked those teams during the preseason.

A young player carrying injuries with his team winning sod all in the last couple of seasons yet with only good performances in big matches few and far between cannot come close to winning FIFA awards and Ballon D'or OR A comparison with Maradona cannot spring up if the player is only good and can score goals consistently.

Ronaldo was at a different level, though, which is the point. He didn't have the supporting cast that Messi has, either. Barcelona are a sublime attacking unit. Yaya, Keita, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Eto'o, Alves and then add Messi! Plus they are an attacking team, so you will often see opposing teams not knowing who to mark or where to go to contain so many attacking threats. It was never like that for Ronaldo, who basically given the ball and expected to make the magic happen, not dissimilar to Maradona at Napoli in that regard, actually. Plus Inter were a defensive team, not an attacking one.

Barcelona definitely had a strong team then Guardiola, Popescu, Figo, Stoichkov, Luis Enrique apart from Ronaldo a team very much comparable with the current Barca especially de la Pena and Figo setting up loads for Ronaldo.

Under Uncle Bob it wasnt anything like give the ball to Ronaldo he would make it happen, Barca had a great midfield and attack then, he played his part although he was head and shoulders above the rest whenever he glided with the ball.

There is not much change between Barca of last season when they were shite and the current one except the addition of Alaves, removal of Ronaldinho and Messi being fit the biggest common denominator. Barcelona of 96/97 are shade better than the current one even if Messi and Ronaldo are excluded either both sides.

Inter also had a decent team then favourites to lift the title with the likes of Zanetti, Recoba, Zamorano, Simeone and others but yeah it was like they gave the ball to Ronaldo and he made it happen.

 

[Fortitude]

Had Messi put up just good performances against top teams, I cannot see any reason how he can get puffed up so much, especially when the likes of Capello, Hitzfeld and others openly said he was comparable with Maradona and Ronaldo at 18, when he tonked those teams during the preseason.

A young player carrying injuries with his team winning sod all yet with only good performances in big matches few and far between cannot come close to winning awards or the comparison with Maradona cannot spring up if the player is good yet can score goals consistently.

Messi's style of play will always, always earn him plaudits. To see someone as young as him have the confidence he had on the ball in games of a certain magnitude captures the heart and imagination, but that's not the same as dominant performances. At that time Ronaldinho was clearly the top dog and had the majority of the attention on him, which afforded Messi the space he got.

He played well, but he was not dominant.

Barcelona definitely had a strong team then Guardiola, Popescu, Figo, Stoichkov, Luis Enrique apart from Ronaldo a team very much comparable with the current Barca especially de la Pena and Figo setting up loads for Ronaldo.

Under Uncle Bob it wasnt anything like give the ball to Ronaldo he would make it happen, Barca had a great midfield and attack then, he played his part although he was head and shoulders above the rest whenever he glided with the ball.

There is not much change between Barca of last season when they were shite and the current one except the addition of Alaves, removal of Ronaldinho and Messi being fit. Barcelona of 96/97 are shade better than the current one even if Messi and Ronaldo are excluded either both sides.
I was clearly talking about at Inter. There's no comparison to be made at all between Ronaldo and Messi in their stints at Barca.
Inter also had a decent team then favourites to lift the title with the likes of Zanetti, Recoba, Zamorano, Simeone and others but yeah it was like they gave the ball to Ronaldo and he made it happen.

 

[vijay]

Messi's style of play will always, always earn him plaudits. To see someone as young as him have the confidence he had on the ball in games of a certain magnitude captures the heart and imagination, but that's not the same as dominant performances. At that time Ronaldinho was clearly the top dog and had the majority of the attention on him, which afforded Messi the space he got.

He played well, but he was not dominant.

By that context, Messi should've gone shite after the fall of Ronaldinho and the intrernal squabbles at Barca over the last couple of seasons or so..It clearly didnt happen though.

Its nothing of that sort..That was the popular theory that came up like Ronaldinho occupying defenders, infact it was Messi occupying defenders that freed up Ronaldinho and Eto and amongst Barca players he attracted the highest fouls then. Just try catching up some full matches mentioned in this thread when both played together, Messi was more tightly marked, treated more shabbily than Ronnie, yet he was always better than the rest.

Interms of dominating an opponent, it depends on how you define the term. Messi even as an 18 year old can tear away any opposition playing the way, he normally plays can play a blinder might or not score goals... shades of Goofy Ronaldo at the same age who can be tied down but with his great finishing skills, strength on the ball always had the last laugh.

 

[Cal?]

Everyone talks about it as if Messi was injured for the whole of last season, the fact is he got injured in March and made it back before our CL tie.

Some facts: in Barca's first 26 league matches last season, Messi started 19 of them.

In United's first 26 league matches, Ronaldo started 20.

I don't think that injury is the only reason Messi had a shite season compared to Ronaldo in 07/08.

 

[Cal?]

Basically Ronaldinho got a standing ovation for those two goals, Messi was subbed five or six minutes before Ronaldinho scored his first, and through out the time when he was on the pitch he was their best player.

Real Madrid for the last three seasons were incredibly shite, lucky to win the league in the last two seasons.

Now Messi was the best player on the pitch even if he was subbed off before Barca winning the game?

How ridiculous can you get?

 

[vijay]

Everyone talks about it as if Messi was injured for the whole of last season, the fact is he got injured in March and made it back before our CL tie.

Some facts: in Barca's first 26 league matches last season, Messi started 19 of them.

In United's first 26 league matches, Ronaldo started 20.

I don't think that injury is the only reason Messi had a shite season compared to Ronaldo in 07/08.

Messi didnt have a shite season in 07/08.

Even in the first half of the season he missed nearly two months, an injury against Celtic if my memory serves right.

 

[Cal?]

Had Messi put up just good performances against top teams, I cannot see any reason how he can get puffed up so much, especially when the likes of Capello, Hitzfeld and others openly said he was comparable with Maradona and Ronaldo at 18, when he tonked those teams during the preseason.

A young player carrying injuries with his team winning sod all in the last couple of seasons yet with only good performances in big matches few and far between cannot come close to winning FIFA awards and Ballon D'or OR A comparison with Maradona cannot spring up if the player is only good and can score goals consistently.

Best has compared Ronaldo to himself, Sir Alex has compared him to the greats of the game, and Ronaldo did it during the season, not some friendly.

Now you're using the same Ballon d'Or & World Footballer awards which Messi finished 2nd to Ronaldo in both to justify Messi's greatness?

 

[vijay]

Now Messi was the best player on the pitch even if he was subbed off before Barca winning the game?

How ridiculous can you get?

You're writing some lame generalization here.

They were already up by a goal with Real Madrid battered, chained in their own half, barely feeling the ball.

Rijkaard from 2003- 2004 brought in Messi only after 60 minutes Predominantly

Rijkaard in 2004-2006 never allowed Messi to finish a match, not playing him more than 70 minutes for the fear of burning him out.

Are you deciphering Rijkaard did that simply because he was shite?

 

[vijay]

Best has compared Ronaldo to himself, Sir Alex has compared him to the greats of the game, and Ronaldo did it during the season, not some friendly.

Now you're using the same Ballon d'Or & World Footballer awards which Messi finished 2nd to Ronaldo in both to justify Messi's greatness?

A player in and out with injuries, playing for a team that won sod all in the last couple of seasons yet finishing second in those awards should mean something.

Is it not?

 

[Cal?]

Messi didnt have a shite season in 07/08.

Even in the first half of the season he missed nearly two months, an injury against Celtic if my memory serves right.

He did compared to Ronaldo.

Anyway, as I said, the facts indicate he only started ONE less league game than Ronaldo did before his more serious injury in March.

 

[GAngel]

Everyone talks about it as if Messi was injured for the whole of last season, the fact is he got injured in March and made it back before our CL tie.

Some facts: in Barca's first 26 league matches last season, Messi started 19 of them.

In United's first 26 league matches, Ronaldo started 20.

I don't think that injury is the only reason Messi had a shite season compared to Ronaldo in 07/08.

He only played a total of 28 matches last season and started 23 of them. He was injured mid december so i'm not sure how you figured he played 26 league matches that quickly

He was top scorer on the team when he got injured.

 

[Cal?]

You're writing some lame generalization here.

They were already up by a goal with Real Madrid battered, chained in their own half, barely feeling the ball.

Rijkaard from 2003- 2004 brought in Messi only after 60 minutes Predominantly

Rijkaard in 2004-2006 never allowed Messi to finish a match, not playing him more than 70 minutes for the fear of burning him out.

Are you deciphering Rijkaard did that simply because he was shite?

So let me get this straight, with Messi, Barca scored 1 goal, they take him off and score 2 more, yet you claim he was their best player and not Ronaldinho.

Right...

 

[Cal?]

A player in and out with injuries, playing for a team that won sod all in the last couple of seasons yet finishing second in those awards should mean something.

Is it not?

Yes, and a player winning all the big club trophies as well as winning both those awards by a clear margin should mean more.

Non?

 

[Cal?]

He only played a total of 28 matches last season and started 23 of them. He was injured mid december so i'm not sure how you figured he played 26 league matches that quickly

He was top scorer on the team when he got injured.

I said: Some facts: in Barca's first 26 league matches last season, Messi started 19 of them.

What are you talking about?

 

[Fortitude]

By that context, Messi should've gone shite after the fall of Ronaldinho and the intrernal squabbles at Barca over the last couple of seasons or so..It clearly didnt happen though.

Not at all, which is why I said 'at that time' and your revisionism is quite frightening here, by the way. Eto'o was the best striker on the planet bar none at that time and it was in fact he, if anyone, who afforded space for Ronaldinho. Messi being on the other side of the pitch was often the 'spare' man and lesser threat of the 3 when he played.

Its nothing of that sort..That was the popular theory that came up like Ronaldinho occupying defenders, infact it was Messi occupying defenders that freed up Ronaldinho and Eto and amongst Barca players he attracted the highest fouls then. Just try catching up some full matches mentioned in this thread when both played together, Messi was more tightly marked, treated more shabbily than Ronnie, yet he was always better than the rest.

Again, this re-writing of history is ridiculous. It's almost as if you're erasing Ronaldinho from history with statements like these, not to mention the whole of Chelsea shitting themselves every time he touched the ball even before he scored his wonder goal in the game at SB. Messi was an additional threat, certainly not the main one or the most focused upon.

Interms of dominating an opponent, it depends on how you define the term. Messi even as an 18 year old can tear away any opposition playing the way, he normally plays can play a blinder might or not score goals... shades of Goofy Ronaldo at the same age who can be tied down but with his great finishing skills, strength on the ball always had the last laugh.

'Dominating' opponents is an extreme term. It doesn't happen often and it rarely has for Messi.

 

[GAngel]

I said: Some facts: in Barca's first 26 league matches last season, Messi started 19 of them.

What are you talking about?

just trying to educate a pimple faced teenager who's in love with his club but a bit deluded. There's no rule that says only one good player per generation.

As it stands if mess kept up his pace he would score more than 50 this season in all comps. He's on 27 now and that already puts him into company with some great strikers and should command respect.

 

[GAngel]

Not at all, which is why I said 'at that time' and your revisionism is quite frightening here, by the way. Eto'o was the best striker on the planet bar none at that time and it was in fact he, if anyone, who afforded space for Ronaldinho. Messi being on the other side of the pitch was often the 'spare' man and lesser threat of the 3 when he played.


Again, this re-writing of history is ridiculous. It's almost as if you're erasing Ronaldinho from history with statements like these, not to mention the whole of Chelsea shitting themselves every time he touched the ball even before he scored his wonder goal in the game at SB. Messi was an additional threat, certainly not the main one or the most focused upon.



'Dominating' opponents is an extreme term. It doesn't happen often and it rarely has for Messi.

That is a laugh. You've never seen a barca game over the past 2 years then.

 

[vijay]

So let me get this straight, with Messi, Barca scored 1 goal, they take him off and score 2 more, yet you claim he was their best player and not Ronaldinho.

Right...

Better get the full DVD, watch the match and deduce it by yourself.

Not taking anything away from Ronnie, two teriffic goals, but Real Madrid were already dead and buried by Messi and Ronaldinho then made a meal out of them

 

[Cal?]

just trying to educate a pimple faced teenager who's in love with his club but a bit deluded. There's no rule that says only one good player per generation.

As it stands if mess kept up his pace he would score more than 50 this season in all comps. He's on 27 now and that already puts him into company with some great strikers and should command respect.

Respect yes, but not comparisons with Maradona even before he's starred in any trophy winning campaign.

Ronaldinho was the star when Barca last won anything in 05/06.

 

[Fortitude]

That is a laugh. You've never seen a barca game over the past 2 years then.

Your usage of the word is clearly incorrect.

In fact, it's flippant.

'Dominating' is what Cruyff did in '74 or what Platini did in '84 or Maradona in '86 or even Messi at the YWC. The last truly dominant force at Barca was Ronaldinho before he turned into a slob.

Messi is part of a cast who are all doing their part in making Barca dominant as a team. Eto'o has 19 goals in 19 games, Henry has come back to life, Xavi is the best midfielder in the world, Yaya is on top of his game. Messi occupying 2 men on a flank is not dominance.

 

[Cal?]

Better get the full DVD, watch the match and deduce it by yourself.

Not taking anything away from Ronnie, two teriffic goals, but Real Madrid were already dead and buried by Messi and Ronaldinho then made a meal out of them

I see, so teams are dead and buried when they're 1 goal down. You really do learn something new everyday.

I don't care WHY Messi was taken off, the fact is that he went off and Ronadinho scored 2 goals and got a standing ovation at the Bernabeu, I think that's pretty conclusive evidence that Ronaldinho was man of the match that day.

 

[GAngel]

Your usage of the word is clearly incorrect.

In fact, it's flippant.

'Dominating' is what Cruyff did in '74 or what Platini did in '84 or Maradona in '86 or even Messi at the YWC. The last truly dominant force at Barca was Ronaldinho before he turned into a slob.

I'm done you clearly are an idiot and i don't waste time with people who aern't paying me or providing me with some type of useful service.

 

[Fortitude]

I'm done you clearly are an idiot and i don't waste time with people who aern't paying me or providing me with some type of useful service.

Oversensitive and quick with the ad hominems. In other words, incapable of debate.

You should stick to the sidelines, sonny.

 

[vijay]

Not at all, which is why I said 'at that time' and your revisionism is quite frightening here, by the way. Eto'o was the best striker on the planet bar none at that time and it was in fact he, if anyone, who afforded space for Ronaldinho. Messi being on the other side of the pitch was often the 'spare' man and lesser threat of the 3 when he played.

Messi being a spare man!...Dunno how some of you can twist things to suit your arguments. I have seen loads of matches with Messi and Ronaldinho and it was like Messi getting the stick more often than not. But some of you can interpret that differently!

Again, this re-writing of history is ridiculous. It's almost as if you're erasing Ronaldinho from history with statements like these, not to mention the whole of Chelsea shitting themselves every time he touched the ball even before he scored his wonder goal in the game at SB. Messi was an additional threat, certainly not the main one or the most focused upon.

When Barca faced off Chelsea at SB for the first time and lost 2-4 Ronaldinho was the best player, including the wonder goal - Messi didn't play that match. When they faced off each other for the second time Messi was their best player in the team that had Ronaldinho. No one said Ronaldinho was any thing less than great in those two seasons, but whenever Messi played he was in a league of his own.

'Dominating' opponents is an extreme term. It doesn't happen often and it rarely has for Messi.

Sorry there!

You must watch him more.

 

[Fortitude]

No, what's happening here is you lot have some serious tunnel vision which is propelling Messi to Maradona-like status. By not acknowledging the importance of an overlapper like Alves, the constant threat of, oh, about 6 other players and the lack of great defenders or defences in La Liga, you're turning Messi into something he may or may not be, prematurely.

Let's take this article, for example:

Dani Alves: the best player in the world (well, after Leo Messi)He might only be a right-back, but Barcelona's Dani Alves would be the world's best player if it wasn't for a certain ArgentinianComments (299)
Dani Alves, the world's second best player. Photograph: Getty Images

Madrid didn't want him, Liverpool didn't want him enough, and Chelsea wouldn't pay for him. After all, they reasoned, he's only a full-back. Forget dark and brooding or squeaky-clean: he doesn't do adverts, has a cheeky grin rather than a winning smile, a wife not a WAG, and couldn't pout if his life depended on it. He came to Europe for a million euros when that wasn't a million pounds, isn't the outstanding man for his club, doesn't play regularly for his country, and didn't get a single vote at the Fifa World player awards. Not even from the representative from Guam, who was too busy pencilling in the words Frank and Lampard. Hell, even Cameroon captain Rigobert Song preferred to spoil his ballot paper than vote for him.

But don't let that fool you. Because Dani Alves is still the world's best player. Well, maybe not the best. That's Leo Messi. And that's also the point. Because while in Brazil they giggled at the unlikeliest of metrosexuals, commenting more on the six tubs of facial cream Alves had confiscated at the airport than the six touches he had on the pitch last time he travelled thousands of miles for a handful of international minutes, while he got ignored by Fifa's judges and France Football's correspondents, while he'd never launch a Cristiano-esque crusade – Gazzetta today, L'Equipe tomorrow, Kicker the day after - and while, above all, the eulogies fall on the unbelievably brilliant Messi, Alves has built a case to be considered the world's second best player.

From right-back.

And right-wing. And just about everywhere else. Roman Abramovich decided €30m was too much for a defender but Alves is not just a defender. He's a one-man band wearing cymbals on his knees, a drum on his back, Johnny Cash's harmonica strapped to his gob and Barça sweatbands on his wrists like a 10-year-old suffering a Peter Withe fixation. He offers killer passes and crunching tackles: a screeching lunatic kid, perfect technician, tactical genius and - let's face it - sneaky little cheat, all wrapped into one hyperactive ball. A footballing Sonic the Hedgehog.

You've got to love him. Or least you would have to if you weren't so busy loving Leo. Take this weekend. It was the first game of the season's second half and Barcelona had broken more records than Toxteth O'Grady: more points than any other team ever, the biggest lead ever, and the best debutant coach in Pep Guardiola. They'd completed over 2,000 more passes than anyone else, had more corners, more shots, and conceded the fewest goals, scoring a staggering 59 as well as hitting 17 posts – more posts than Espanyol have goals, enough to have given then a 100% record.

Something, though, was missing. And not just defeat for Madrid, who scraped another win off Raúl's ear. Barcelona sought revenge on Numancia, the only side to beat them. They also sought reassurance after the sinister shadow that saw off Ramón Calderón cast a cloud over Catalunya. Florentino Pérez, said Marca, would soon make a comeback – with Messi under his arm. All it would take is a little persuasion and his buy-out clause: €150m (plus 46% tax). That Marca talked it up was no surprise; the consternation it caused in Catalunya was. They actually took it seriously. The charmingly titled crappingyourselfometer appeared to be firing up again. Suddenly, they were spitting denials, shooting evils at that geezer looking at their bird, and begging like terrified lovers. It couldn't have been more desperate if they'd stalked Messi round Sainsbury's or spent the small hours tearfully breathing down the phone, silently picking the petals off a daisy.

So, when Messi scored the opener for a struggling Barça with a clever flick four minutes into the second half, they breathed a sigh of relief. When he kissed the Barcelona badge, they went all gooey. When he scored another, provided an assist and was denied a hat-trick by the bar, leading them in a brilliant 45 minutes that finished 4-1 and eclipsed a ropey first in which, but for the ref, they would have been trailing, they were doing cartwheels. And when he insisted he'd "never leave", they were dancing through a summer meadow.

"We Love You Messi", simpered Sport's cover, its editor declaring "Messi's kiss not just any kiss", and "this won't be like Figo because Messi is nether a money grabber nor a gypsy". Mundo Deportivo emblazoned "Messi Barcelona" across its front page. And Joan Laporta was losing the plot. "They're trying to destabilise us," he ranted, "and Madrid have an unfair advantage because they have the support of institutions we all pay for – especially the Catalans." "Messi," he added, "proves he's happy with brilliant performances every game."

He was half right. Messi was brilliant again. But amid the dreamy eulogies, another decisive performance from Alves went relatively unnoticed. The Brazilian is the only consistent starter who wasn't there last season when they finished 18 points behind Madrid. Now they are 12 ahead. That's not to say he's responsible – Guardiola's been immensely impressive, Eto'o's scored 19 in 19, Henry is winning not whining, Xavi controls games, and Iniesta's touch and vision is wonderful – but his contribution has been colossal. He's buried the mistaken belief that Barça need defenders who defend – a belief that saw off Belletti and took the balance and element of surprise with it - and has brought dynamism, bite and desire, helping inject life into a moribund mob.

In September, Alves insisted he wouldn't be the Sevilla Alves. Under Guardiola's guidance, he's been better - and he was pretty good before. It's no coincidence he's played more minutes than anyone else or that Barcelona's right wing has delivered three times as many goals as the left, with the full-back providing 10 assists. Not just any assists either, key assists: assists that opened the scoring against Valladolid, saw off Betis 3-2, equalised against Getafe and Osasuna, and broke Saturday's deadlock. But it wasn't just that Alves produced a brilliant flick and headed pass for Messi. It was that Barça turned to him in need, that in the opening four minutes of the half, they'd already speared five balls his way.

For all their collective brilliance, Barcelona have been accused of Messi-dependency. But who wouldn't depend on him? And, besides, Messi's not alone. He might be just a right-back, he might not be glamorous and he might not even be the best player in the team, but right now Daniel Alves might just be the second best player in the world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/jan/26/dani-alves-barcelona-leo-messi

--

Now if you're not going to acknowledge the importance and quality of those around Messi, it shows you are incapable of the objectivity needed to discuss the player. He is by no means a one-man show at Barca. He's odds on the best player on the planet right now, but until he does some serious damage in the CL, the premise of a whole bunch of arguments on here are redundant.

It's gotten so extreme people are now putting him alongisde Ronaldo and in the company of Pele and Maradona, ffs.

 

[vijay]

I see, so teams are dead and buried when they're 1 goal down. You really do learn something new everyday.

I don't care WHY Messi was taken off, the fact is that he went off and Ronadinho scored 2 goals and got a standing ovation at the Bernabeu, I think that's pretty conclusive evidence that Ronaldinho was man of the match that day.

If a team gets battered from pillar to post, they are dead and buried even if they let in a single goal or ten goals, that exactly happned to Real Madrid.

I told that your two goal theory and Messi being taken off are lame generalizations, you can watch the match again and figure it out yourself.

Yeah..Ronaldinho was the MOM, just like Ruud was the MOM against Milwall for his two goals, we all know who the real MOM was.

 

[Cal?]

If a team gets battered from pillar to post, they are dead and buried even if they let in a single goal or ten goals, that exactly happned to Real Madrid.

I told that your two goal theory and Messi being taken off are lame generalizations, you can watch the match again and figure it out yourself.

Yeah..Ronaldinho was the MOM, just like Ruud was the MOM against Milwall for his two goals, we all know who the real MOM was.

I'm not going to argue with you over that game, I honestly can't remember much about it apart from Ronaldinho's standing ovation.

I think it's been said before, you seem to belong to the group who values style more than results. Messi's style will always endear him to people like you, a bit like Henry really.

Ronaldo on the other hand gets results, playing a vital part in us winning the PL CL double last season, until Messi plays a vital part in winning some major trophies, there is no need to argue about it.

You're entitled to jump to conclusions and proclaim him the bestest player in the world ever ever. I'll reserve judgement at least until the CL knockout stages.

 

[vijay]

Alves is having a teriffic season.

Ronaldinho was great in his two seasons there.

Messi so far has been head and shoulders above them..

I dont get this point Messi is best only because of so and so, never seen his level falter a bit even though Barca as a whole played some shite football.

 

[vijay]

I'm not going to argue with you over that game, I honestly can't remember much about it apart from Ronaldinho's standing ovation.

I think it's been said before, you seem to belong to the group who values style more than results. Messi's style will always endear him to people like you, a bit like Henry really.

Ronaldo on the other hand gets results, playing a vital part in us winning the PL CL double last season, until Messi plays a vital part in winning some major trophies, there is no need to argue about it.

You're entitled to jump to conclusions and proclaim him the bestest player in the world ever ever. I'll reserve judgement at least until the CL knockout stages.

So far I've never made any statements that Messi being the bestest ever or some franklys level of vulgarism and neither a big fan of Henry

He's a much better footballer than you and Fortitude presume him to be. Many of these presumptions are cleary written only by watching the player as bits and parts.

Ronaldo deserved the Ballon D'or and other individual honours, no one has said anything different ..Cannot understand you beat up others like an unwanted pet with this same Ronaldo argument whenever some one say some thing good about Messi.

 

[Marcosdeto]

in this same thread i said that it's idiotic to compare messi with ronaldo, it's imposible to come to an agreement because they are different style of players

like maradona and pele were

messi is like maradona, ronaldo is like pele

facht!

 

[B20]

If a team gets battered from pillar to post, they are dead and buried even if they let in a single goal or ten goals, that exactly happned to Real Madrid.

I told that your two goal theory and Messi being taken off are lame generalizations, you can watch the match again and figure it out yourself.

Yeah..Ronaldinho was the MOM, just like Ruud was the MOM against Milwall for his two goals, we all know who the real MOM was.

Messi was outstanding that day, but Ronaldinho was the best player in that game. Particularly his second half had everything. He was making overhead flickons under pressure, linking up play at a terrific pace and generally just taking them apart.

messi was beating Carlos everytime he got the ball, but he couldn't match Ronaldinho's passing ingenuity or delivery in that game. And he capped it with two great solo goals he created from nothing. Messi didn't. 'nuff said. Why is this even discussed?