Lionel Messi

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Scoring doesnt automatically mean you didn't flop or not scoring doesn't mean you didn't perform well.

Ronaldo scored in a CL final. A great header but he could very easily have been the player held resposible for United's defeat had a certain big man not done what big men do.

Henry won the world cup and the european championship. He failed to score in a final where he was run ragged after Arsenal went down to 10 men.

Fact is they wouldn't have gotten to that final without Henrys brilliance, the same can't be said for Ronaldo yet. He didn't inspire United to winning the champions league, he helped in a great team effort however you can mask his underperforming and key bad moments very easily with the reassurance that United won the thing.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Fact is they wouldn't have gotten to that final without Henrys brilliance, the same can't be said for Ronaldo yet. He didn't inspire United to winning the champions league, he helped in a great team effort however you can mask his underperforming and key bad moments very easily with the reassurance that United won the thing.
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Basically won the Roma tie for us....
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Scoring doesnt automatically mean you didn't flop or not scoring doesn't mean you didn't perform well.

Ronaldo scored in a CL final. A great header but he could very easily have been the player held resposible for United's defeat had a certain big man not done what big men do.

Henry won the world cup and the european championship. He failed to score in a final where he was run ragged after Arsenal went down to 10 men.

Fact is they wouldn't have gotten to that final without Henrys brilliance, the same can't be said for Ronaldo yet. He didn't inspire United to winning the champions league, he helped in a great team effort however you can mask his underperforming and key bad moments very easily with the reassurance that United won the thing.
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Considering he scored more goals than any other player in last season's CL, I think it's fair to say he palyed a massive part in winning the damn thing. Total number of goals aside, he scored crucial goals at key times in a number of big CL matches.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Considering he scored more goals than any other player in last season's CL, I think it's fair to say he palyed a massive part in winning the damn thing. Total number of goals aside, he scored crucial goals at key times in a number of big CL matches.
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Not playing down his part but in the big key games ie the semi and the final i don't think he inspired or performed well. He missed a penalty in each which is pretty brutal, infact some would say he bottled them or is a bottler for missing two massive penalties in consecutive rounds.
 
Cal? said:
Ronaldo has already had 2 seasons at the top, and there is every chance he could yet make 30 goals this season.

By "the credit he deserves" you just want to say Henry was the best player in the World in his Arsenal days, and I just agree with everyone else that he NEVER was as he never won any of Ballon d'Or or World Footballer OTY...

You just refuse to admit that Henry was just a very good player who had an excellent scoring record, winning less than he should have in his club career... a bit like Shearer really.
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I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't a top player or he won't score 30 goals this season or the next, all I'm saying is his greatness will be judged on his consistency.

As for Henry not winning any awards do those awards suddenly define how great a player is? Players like Shearer, Keane, Vieira, Giggs, Scholes and many other PL players have more often than not been overlooked in those awards. In 2003 Zidane won the World player of the year yet even idiots like you would recognize that Henry was far better than him and there were a few other players as well better than him. Ronaldo winning it this year breaks a long record of the big Italian and Spanish club players always getting preference in these awards. About damn time to.

As for the trophies Henry has won apart from the CL he has won most major trophies when playing full seasons for his clubs and won everything internationally. He will have a good shout at winning La Liga or maybe the CL this season as well so why is he a bit like Shearer who only won one PL? Is a player judged on his ability or is a player judged on the team he played in and what he won with them? Phil Neville has 6 PL medals, I guess that makes him better than Vieira, Gerrard or Lampard right? Puskas or Di Stefano never won a world cup but they can't be compared to the top players ever? Giggs never played in a major international tournament so why should we compare him to the top wing players of the last 25 years? Shearer isn't one of the top striker to have played in the last 20 years because he only won one PL? We aren't talking about trophy hauls we are talking the ability of players, try to figure out what you want to use to judge a player. You seem to be mixing your argument up.

Weren't you saying this summer that if C.Ronaldo led Portugal to the European cup he would be up there with Maradona and Pele? Then you accuse Arsenal fans of over-rating our players? Not the first time C.Ronaldo didn't perform in an international tournament right? Guess that makes a valid excuse for putting him down, not the fact that his team mates weren't up to scratch.

cesc's_mullet said:
Well said that man.

I found it humorous, and somewhat relieving that the two dullards I had the most run-in's on here just so happened to be the two that are seen as the biggest muppets, idiots, and most despised posters already. At first I thought it was just me, but luckily it's been proven otherwise.

It's just a testament to the fact that even their own fellow supporters think they're mentally challenged.
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Bloody hell mate I thought you were dead, haven't seen you around here in ages. Then again I'm not here much either anymore....

vijay said:
As for JazzG and other goons all these recent fans took up football after watching French Musketeers in Highbury, and then they figured out these players were already a part of World cup and Euro winning squad, dusted out the old DVD'S and launched an internet crusade to glorify them; its obvious they all have a retarded vision about their child hood hereos, no one is an exception there.
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Stick to something like cricket or hockey mate, this football stuff is abit over your head. You are embarrassing yourself trying to make it our like you know what the feck you on about.

Pogue Mahone said:
That cliche is as tired and untrue as the one about Ronaldo being a big-game bottler.
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Funny that isn't it, both players are actually both very similar. Both start out wide and come in centrally with devastating effect. Both accused of not showing up in big games yet their stats and records speak very differently. For me I've always thought Rooney is a player who really steps up his game in the big crunch games but stats show something else.
 
CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Basically won the Roma tie for us....
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He did?

He scored a cracking header but then Rooney scored too and the defense didnt concede so 2 away goals to the good going into the 2nd leg at Old Trafford.

There it's 1-0 due to a Tevez goal.

Only 2 of his total number of 8 goals in the champions league came after the group stages..
 
FranklyVulgar said:
He did?

He scored a cracking header but then Rooney scored too and the defense didnt concede so 2 away goals to the good going into the 2nd leg at Old Trafford.

There it's 1-0 due to a Tevez goal.

Only 2 of his total number of 8 goals in the champions league came after the group stages..
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The first goal in Roma practically won us the tie, IMO.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
He did?

He scored a cracking header but then Rooney scored too and the defense didnt concede so 2 away goals to the good going into the 2nd leg at Old Trafford.

There it's 1-0 due to a Tevez goal.

Only 2 of his total number of 8 goals in the champions league came after the group stages..
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Three
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Not playing down his part but in the big key games ie the semi and the final i don't think he inspired or performed well. He missed a penalty in each which is pretty brutal, infact some would say he bottled them or is a bottler for missing two massive penalties in consecutive rounds.
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One of our best players in the final and semi-final. Misse penalties are neither here nor there. The only penalty he missed in open-play he won himself anyway.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Scoring doesnt automatically mean you didn't flop or not scoring doesn't mean you didn't perform well.

Ronaldo scored in a CL final. A great header but he could very easily have been the player held resposible for United's defeat had a certain big man not done what big men do.

Henry won the world cup and the european championship. He failed to score in a final where he was run ragged after Arsenal went down to 10 men.

Fact is they wouldn't have gotten to that final without Henrys brilliance, the same can't be said for Ronaldo yet. He didn't inspire United to winning the champions league, he helped in a great team effort however you can mask his underperforming and key bad moments very easily with the reassurance that United won the thing.
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Henry won the World Cup after getting DROPPED for the final.

As many people have already mentioned, Ronaldo was the top scorer in the CL whilst we win it (inc. scoring in the final), and somehow you don't think that counts as "inspiring United to win the CL", whereas somehow Henry inspired Arsenal to the CL final all on his won whilst all the other Arsenal players just stood around to watch his brilliance?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
One of our best players in the final and semi-final. Misse penalties are neither here nor there. The only penalty he missed in open-play he won himself anyway.
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First half he like United played well in the final. 2nd half Chelsea were the better side.

Missed penalties are the most brutal thing in football. If JT and Paul Scholes hadn't provided moments of magic in the champions league i think more than 1 person may have pointed to Ronaldo missing key penalties.
 
I don't think anybody can say that Ronaldo didn't perform to his absolute best in the final.

For the first time in half a year, he was back helping the defence in the last 10 minuets of normal time. He was busting his arse for every ball like everybody else. Not only that but he created the chances for United. In the dying moments of normal time he picked up the ball and ran nearly the full length of the field.

He was sensation to watch. That is why he got man of the match. Don't let 1 game be represented by the rest of the season. Ronaldo played a BPITW game in the CL final.
 
Cal? said:
Henry won the World Cup after getting DROPPED for the final.

As many people have already mentioned, Ronaldo was the top scorer in the CL whilst we win it (inc. scoring in the final), and somehow you don't think that counts as "inspiring United to win the CL", whereas somehow Henry inspired Arsenal to the CL final all on his won whilst all the other Arsenal players just stood around to watch his brilliance?
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It was a few years ago, the win over Madrid sticks out in my mind and his remarkable goal that won them the tie.

That probably inspired the team and gave them the belief that they could go on and get to the final.

Kaka inspired Milan, doesn't mean the other players stood around whilst he showed his brilliance. But you can't argue that he was the key reason they won.

Ronaldo played his part and if you want to say he was the main reason United won then fair enough. He was a key player but i'm just saying that missing a penalty in the semi and in the final could have proven very costly and instead of people saying he inspired United they would be saying he cost United.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
Scoring doesnt automatically mean you didn't flop or not scoring doesn't mean you didn't perform well.

Ronaldo scored in a CL final. A great header but he could very easily have been the player held resposible for United's defeat had a certain big man not done what big men do.

Henry won the world cup and the european championship. He failed to score in a final where he was run ragged after Arsenal went down to 10 men.

Fact is they wouldn't have gotten to that final without Henrys brilliance, the same can't be said for Ronaldo yet. He didn't inspire United to winning the champions league, he helped in a great team effort however you can mask his underperforming and key bad moments very easily with the reassurance that United won the thing.
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This my friend is utter nonsense. Heres my two bits about players that perform well on the big stage.

IMO the greatest sportsman raise their performance as the stage they perform on gets bigger. Out of the ones i've seen Zidane was clearly the winner in this aspect. There was just something about him when the world was watching. Even at the age of around 35(?) he absolutely demoralised a younger and fitter Brazillian team in the world cup. He was bringing out the tricks, stringing little triangles together, shrugging off players in their prime.

This facet IMO cannot yet be attributed to any player of the current generation simply because they are yet to play the biggest games of their careers. Ronaldo has done well for himself but definitely has a long way to go to be considered as one of those players. He definitely goes down a few notches when he plays Chelsea or Liverpool. For his age hes done well, top scorer in the CL, scored on the biggest stage in club football, done well at the international level etc. Rooney will possibly be a bigger contender for the 'big match performer' tag, he seems to do better in the bigger games.

Messi for me seems like the likeliest candidate. He has a lot of tests ahead in his career, and although i usually find it hard to predict who will be the greater player out of him and Ronaldo, his game is very complete. He is extremely hard to mark out of a game. That is the kind of player who will bring his best in the bigger games. Its a critisism of Ronaldo that is hard for him to reply to. In a tight game against Chelsea, he can be marked out of the game using Cole and an additional defender tailing him everywhere he goes. Messi's vision and incredible ball control make this harder and nearly impossible to do. But then again in a tight game against a physically strong Chelsea, Messi is never going to score the kind of game Ronaldo did in the CL final. Anyhoo conclusion is that these players are still young, we cant judge their careers much at this stage and form any patterns. They all have some achievements and many thingts to prove as well, only time will tell.

Apologies for rambling on a bit on things that led nearly nowhere, but what i initially wanted to comment on was Henry, in this aspect.

IMO he isnt completely a 'big game botter' as people claim, but when a player reaches his level of performance in the leagues against the Boltons and Evertons, his greatness is determined by his performances in the biggest games/ competitions of his career. And for me Henry failed that test. He didnt do a Zidane and dominate a Brazil the way the latter did at any point in his career. He had a few moments of brilliance againts good opposition, of course he did. But he was never that player who raised himself as the games got bigger and said 'i truly am the best'. It will be interesting to see who does it out of the current lot. My heart says Rooney, my mind is confused between Messi and Ronaldo, but leaning towards Messi.
 
JazzG said:
I'm not saying Ronaldo isn't a top player or he won't score 30 goals this season or the next, all I'm saying is his greatness will be judged on his consistency.
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Fair enough, if Ronaldo recaptures last seasons form and maintains it a few more seasons, he'd be up there with Zidane.

JazzG said:
As for Henry not winning any awards do those awards suddenly define how great a player is? Players like Shearer, Keane, Vieira, Giggs, Scholes and many other PL players have more often than not been overlooked in those awards. In 2003 Zidane won the World player of the year yet even idiots like you would recognize that Henry was far better than him and there were a few other players as well better than him. Ronaldo winning it this year breaks a long record of the big Italian and Spanish club players always getting preference in these awards. About damn time to.
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I agree that there is a clear bias towards La Liga & Serie A, however, that just makes Ronaldo's achievement even more incredible last season, he was so good he overcame that bias to win those awards.

In 2003, Henry only won the FA Cup, Zidane won La Liga, Shevchenko won the CL, personally I'd have given it to Shevchenko, but there isn't a lot wrong with giving the award to Zidane.

JazzG said:
As for the trophies Henry has won apart from the CL he has won most major trophies when playing full seasons for his clubs and won everything internationally. He will have a good shout at winning La Liga or maybe the CL this season as well so why is he a bit like Shearer who only won one PL? Is a player judged on his ability or is a player judged on the team he played in and what he won with them? Phil Neville has 6 PL medals, I guess that makes him better than Vieira, Gerrard or Lampard right? Puskas or Di Stefano never won a world cup but they can't be compared to the top players ever? Giggs never played in a major international tournament so why should we compare him to the top wing players of the last 25 years? Shearer isn't one of the top striker to have played in the last 20 years because he only won one PL? We aren't talking about trophy hauls we are talking the ability of players, try to figure out what you want to use to judge a player. You seem to be mixing your argument up.
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A player is judged on his quality as well as the trophies he wins, as has been pointed out many times, there are squad players winning trophies (May and Traore's CL medals) and there are star players inspiring a team to win trophies (Ronaldo CL last season, Kaka the season before, etc). Surely you should be able to work out the difference.

Winning trophies does matter, we can probably all remember Le Tissier being a great player, but younger kids will learn about the likes of Keane for having won the most PL titles as captain, Giggs as having won the most PL titles, etc.

JazzG said:
Weren't you saying this summer that if C.Ronaldo led Portugal to the European cup he would be up there with Maradona and Pele? Then you accuse Arsenal fans of over-rating our players? Not the first time C.Ronaldo didn't perform in an international tournament right? Guess that makes a valid excuse for putting him down, not the fact that his team mates weren't up to scratch.
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Actually it was the first time he didn't perform in an international tournament. It is well known that he was Portugal's star player when they made it all the way to the final back in 04. He was again their main player when they made the WC semi in 06 (and if Figo could head a ball into the empty net from 3 yards out), who know what might have happened.

JazzG said:
Funny that isn't it, both players are actually both very similar. Both start out wide and come in centrally with devastating effect. Both accused of not showing up in big games yet their stats and records speak very differently. For me I've always thought Rooney is a player who really steps up his game in the big crunch games but stats show something else.
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The difference is, in Ronaldo's case, he HAS the CL final goal and a complete collection against the other 3 of the PL Big 4 to prove otherwise. Henry has yet to score in a big big final.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
It was a few years ago, the win over Madrid sticks out in my mind and his remarkable goal that won them the tie.

That probably inspired the team and gave them the belief that they could go on and get to the final.

Kaka inspired Milan, doesn't mean the other players stood around whilst he showed his brilliance. But you can't argue that he was the key reason they won.

Ronaldo played his part and if you want to say he was the main reason United won then fair enough. He was a key player but i'm just saying that missing a penalty in the semi and in the final could have proven very costly and instead of people saying he inspired United they would be saying he cost United.
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So somehow because Rooney also scored in Rome makes Ronaldo's contribution less important? :confused: If we had won the tie 1-0 on agg then Ronaldo would have inspired us to win the CL? :confused:

Sorry, but I don't agree with that logic.

IMHO Ronaldo played just a big a part in our CL win as Kaka did for Milan or Henry did for Arse making the final.
 
No Cal it's the mannor of the goal. A great ball from scholes and a cracking header in a game against Roma (who United have a habit of beating anyway) or a game in which you are underdogs and your captain scores a fantastic individual goal against the most successful side in european history.

That goal inspired his whole team, gave belief that they could overcome what most would say were superior opposition. United were fully expected to defeat Roma, if Ronaldo hadn't have scored that header then who knows, the fact that Rooney scored and then Tevez at OT and the fact United are with or without Ronaldo a superior side to Roma makes me think United might just have won that game anyway. Call me crazy...
 
FranklyVulgar said:
No Cal it's the mannor of the goal. A great ball from scholes and a cracking header in a game against Roma (who United have a habit of beating anyway) or a game in which you are underdogs and your captain scores a fantastic individual goal against the most successful side in european history.

That goal inspired his whole team, gave belief that they could overcome what most would say were superior opposition. United were fully expected to defeat Roma, if Ronaldo hadn't have scored that header then who knows, the fact that Rooney scored and then Tevez at OT and the fact United are with or without Ronaldo a superior side to Roma makes me think United might just have won that game anyway. Call me crazy...
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Real Madrid finished that season a massive 12pts behind Barcelona.

Roma finished last season just 3pts behind Inter.

I just don't see how Madrid's great CL past record (or poor recent record) has anything to do with it.

Arsenal tried to do what Liverpool did and give up their league campaign to try in the CL (finishing 24pts behind Chelsea). It blew up in their face.
 
This is the reason why this thread is so long, FV. You clearly have some sort of agenda against Ronaldo.

To say that Ronaldo didn't inspire United to win the CL is ridiculous. Inspiration comes in different forms and scoring 8 goals and in every round apart from the semi is quite helpful don't you think?
 
why the feck is a 'gay chubby dating' add being advertised on the bottom of the posts here?
 
This thread is so long because the topic got changed from Messi to Ronaldo and has changed about 20times since the thread was started.

People keep taking offence to people questioning Ronaldo or for praising Messi which is why this thread has gotten so big. Also because of how Messi has performed. If you look back you would see a whole host of rediculous comments or people saying i was being rediculously retarded in November for thinking Messi was the best, or arguing the case that he is as good as he is.

In only 2/3 months most people have realized that Messi is the real deal and have recognized what i've been saying all along.

Personally i don't think i have an agenda against Ronaldo, i do have respect for his ability and talent. But his performances this season have been open to criticism which is quite normal when you are supposed to be the best.

I get stick for my opinions which i think are always fairly reasonable, i do try and make a point when i put an argument across. Some of the comments from others regarding Ronaldo and Messi have been much more damning or over the top than anything i've said.

i got shredded a few months ago for saying Messi could get to the level of Maradona. At the time it was hilarious to even dream of it. Not so many people are laughing now because if anyone can do it Messi can. And even then i never said he will, just that he can.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
In only 2/3 months most people have realized that Messi is the real deal and have recognized what i've been saying all along.
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Not really. For the last couple of years, when fit, most people in the footballing world (not Ronaldo front garden), have recognised that Messi is this generations outstanding talent.

I don't think Messi has significantly improved since last season. He was the best player then too when fit, which was only half the season. (Which meant he didn't deserve the awards).

People can quote honours, goal tallies and stats all they like to distort and argue. But all you have to do is watch Messi and the truth becomes apparant.

I just feel a bit sorry for those determined to do Messi down in order to big Ronaldo up. If they really love the game and i'm sure they do, then they are missing out on one hell of a treat. It's the same Pennant><Ronaldo idiocy, born out of bitterness.
 
FranklyVulgar said:
In only 2/3 months most people have realized that Messi is the real deal and have recognized what i've been saying all along.
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Eh, people who have watched Messi play will have realised he is the real deal, unrelated to your man-love for the little lad.
 
Cal? said:
Since when did you start to own threads?
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Firstly, it's got my name on it.

But that's besides the point, it was just a sly dig suggesting you're the reason why there's chubby gay dating adverts on the bottom. Now get out.
 
dumbo said:
Not really. For the last couple of years, when fit, most people in the footballing world (not Ronaldo front garden), have recognised that Messi is this generations outstanding talent.

I don't think Messi has significantly improved since last season. He was the best player then too when fit, which was only half the season. (Which meant he didn't deserve the awards).

People can quote honours, goal tallies and stats all they like to distort and argue. But all you have to do is watch Messi and the truth becomes apparant.

I just feel a bit sorry for those determined to do Messi down in order to big Ronaldo up. If they really love the game and i'm sure they do, then they are missing out on one hell of a treat. It's the same Pennant><Ronaldo idiocy, born out of bitterness.
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Totally agree but it takes these overly productive periods for people to take proper notice. It's far easier for people to read 19 games, 15 goals and 10 assists or whatever than to watch a player play 90 or 180mins a week and form an opinion based on what they see with their own two eyes.
 
comparing ronaldo with messi is, imvho, like comparing pele with maradona

there's nothing to compare, they are different players and they excell in different ways

while ronaldo -like pele did in hist time- run faster, jump taller and head better than any other player, Messi -like maradona in his time- have the abilitie that leaves you with an open mouth
 
dumbo said:
Not really. For the last couple of years, when fit, most people in the footballing world (not Ronaldo front garden), have recognised that Messi is this generations outstanding talent.

I don't think Messi has significantly improved since last season. He was the best player then too when fit, which was only half the season. (Which meant he didn't deserve the awards).

People can quote honours, goal tallies and stats all they like to distort and argue. But all you have to do is watch Messi and the truth becomes apparant.

I just feel a bit sorry for those determined to do Messi down in order to big Ronaldo up. If they really love the game and i'm sure they do, then they are missing out on one hell of a treat. It's the same Pennant><Ronaldo idiocy, born out of bitterness.
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Did you miss out on those 180 minutes of nothing Messi produced last season against United?

Ronaldo was miles better than Messi over the whole of 07-08, but Messi has been better for half a season 08-09 so far.

Note I'm agreeing he's better this season, but if you seriously think Messi was better than Ronaldo last season, you're just deluded.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
Firstly, it's got my name on it.

But that's besides the point, it was just a sly dig suggesting you're the reason why there's chubby gay dating adverts on the bottom. Now get out.
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I thought we had established that gay dating thing has more to do with whatever is on your computer. :smirk:

Anyway, if you get so stressed with facts about Henry never having been the best player in the world, use the ignore function.
 
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