winning trophies does not mean you are a great player, it merely indicates that you are part of a successful team
David May has a CL medal ffs
David May has a CL medal ffs
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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Being the main reason your team wins trophies does though
And with all due respect to David May, who I've had the pleasure of seeing in a Rochdale chip shop... no
what he said.
i respect Ronaldos 42 goal achievement Brad, may be a while before someone does that again nevermind a 'winger' but he wasnt the only reason United were successful. The form of Rio, Evra & Carrick last season was just as important
Aye, that's what really seperates the two.
He and Rio were on a different level to anyone else.
Henry never had a great footballing intelligence forget about using the term light year
, it was for the reason he was never able to replicate his great run outside the premiership. Not that he failed outside the premiership but still he wasn't a devastating player once he stepped out of Wengers system. Also a big joke in international football.Henry was better than Ronaldo in his finishing and temperament..period. There is hardly much to separate between these two.
Henry never had a great footballing intelligence forget about using the term light year
Henry was better than Ronaldo in his finishing and temperament..period. There is hardly much to separate between these two.
Dribbling
Passing/Vision
Shooting from range
Strength on the ball
Brain
I've spent many years arguing with Cal about Thierry Henry and right now with Henry not being an Arsenal player tbh I can't be bothered to argue about him but one thing you have to hand to Cal is his consistency. Even after all these years his hatred for Thierry Henry is as powerful as it was when I first joined this forum. That is the mark of a true muppet on this forum, not coming out with nonsense here or there but year in year out with the same intensity coming out with nonsense and nobody even comes close to Cal in that respect.
Then on the other hand we have vijay who once told me he has been watching football since the Eighties, a lot of things have happened since then. Liverpool are no longer the dominant force they once was, hell even Michael Jackson has turned white but vijay still after all these years doesn't have a fecking clue what he is talking about.
Now onto KingEric7, you are actually a good poster here and been around for a while. But arguing with Cal is like banging your head against a brick wall, the wall isn't going to move an inch but your head is going to become very sore. Don't get me wrong some of his comments are very valid, Thierry Henry hasn't had as a good a season as Ronaldo had last season. But Thierry Henry is judged more on the fact he did it year in year out, 5 seasons on the trot 30+ goals (the two seasons before that he had 20+ goals) is testament to that fact. Consistency is what defines a great player, not having the odd great season here or there. Simple fact with Cal is he will not ever give Henry the credit he deserves. Nobody is saying he is better than Maradona but Cal's reluctance to ever give him any credit just show how childish and pathetic a poster he is really.
Then on the other hand we have vijay who once told me he has been watching football since the Eighties, a lot of things have happened since then. Liverpool are no longer the dominant force they once was, hell even Michael Jackson has turned white but vijay still after all these years doesn't have a fecking clue what he is talking about.
Now onto KingEric7, you are actually a good poster here and been around for a while. But arguing with Cal is like banging your head against a brick wall, the wall isn't going to move an inch but your head is going to become very sore. Don't get me wrong some of his comments are very valid, Thierry Henry hasn't had as a good a season as Ronaldo had last season. But Thierry Henry is judged more on the fact he did it year in year out, 5 seasons on the trot 30+ goals (the two seasons before that he had 20+ goals) is testament to that fact. Consistency is what defines a great player, not having the odd great season here or there. Simple fact with Cal is he will not ever give Henry the credit he deserves. Nobody is saying he is better than Maradona but Cal's reluctance to ever give him any credit just show how childish and pathetic a poster he is really.
Wouldn't disagree, we might well have won those same competitions with someone else in the side instead of him
But we didn't. We won it with him. And his influence was absolutely massive, given we were set up to get the best out of his game, and that he registered 42 goals which will put any team in contention for major trophies
You can get a little fixated on goal tallies though. If he scores 20 this season, but plays brilliantly and aids another striker to score 30, may well be he's had an even better season. Stats can give you indications and trends, but they don't always tell the full story
I reckon at least a couple of the English teams will get it in the neck. it wouldn't surprise me to see 3 of then go - Chelsea, Liverpool and perm 1.I have a strong feeling that if we do meat Barca in the CL, we'll go through.
I also have a feeling that Inter might knock us out
that's the incredible thing about scoring 42 goals, you can't be viewed as anything but a striker/forward to have accomplished such a thing. Fact is though that he was a winger for much of last season as opposed to a striker/forward like Messi. The only games where he definitely played up front were against Barca where he was isolated and on his own for much of the games, Roma away for the first 65 minutes or so and Birmingham at home where he backheeled it for Tevez to score the winner, those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head. His positioning and ability to be at the right time and the right place as well as his finishing ability were the main reasons for him with popping up with so many goals while playing on the wing, not that he was playing up front for the majority of last season, because that wasn't the case. Having said that, our attacking play is dynamic enough for the wingers and forwards to interchange positions throughout the game so you'll see Ronaldo and Park ahead of our strikers at certain times during the game, that doesn't mean they're playing up front for that game, that's football, you don't stay glued to the flanks for 90 minutes.
Oh, and here's a certain Mr. Ferguson who also supports my view:
Ronaldo is the better dribbler and shoots just as well from range.
As Vinay mentioned, Henry's so called footballing brain doesn't compare to Ronaldo, main reason being he's complete inability to adapt outside Wenger's system.
Ronaldo has played on the right, on the left, in the hole, upfront and excelled in every position.
Ronaldo has already had 2 seasons at the top, and there is every chance he could yet make 30 goals this season.
By "the credit he deserves" you just want to say Henry was the best player in the World in his Arsenal days, and I just agree with everyone else that he NEVER was as he never won any of Ballon d'Or or World Footballer OTY...
You just refuse to admit that Henry was just a very good player who had an excellent scoring record, winning less than he should have in his club career... a bit like Shearer really.
Does David May have a Ballon D'Or?
Its not FM we are talking about to divide these attributes and rating a player.
Henry's never had a well developed footballing brain at 22 or 23 and developed his reading of the game over a period of time. For the start Henry used his pace to go past his opponents, more of a flat track bully and a good exponent of one touch football in moving the ball upfront, basically a style of football that perfectly fits in the premiership, cannot find any great dribbling technique or Zidanesque passing range about him.
As posted many times, any footballer with running ability and power can notch his fair share of goals in the premiership and Henry was also one such case but he developed to a better version over a period of time. Majority of teams in the premiership even these days still try to retain their original shape and try closing in quickly whenever they lose the ball, than tactically reorganizing their defensive and midfield line as in Spain or Italy and any attacker with decent technical ability and a strong physical side can waltz through the defences in the premiership.
Cannot figure out how Henry can be called a genius, when he was only half the player as Ronaldo at the same age. Granted he did develop his brains after playing along with Fabregas and more in his current season at Barca than he had ever done at Arsenal, I can remember a struggling Henry crying in Lequipe last season, that teams in Spain dont play 4-4-2 and Barca dosent play a direct football like Arsenal. Henry at his best had better strength on the ball and a better finisher whilst Ronaldo is better in all other departments and still has five or six more years to improve on his weaknesses.
As for JazzG and other goons all these recent fans took up football after watching French Musketeers in Highbury, and then they figured out these players were already a part of World cup and Euro winning squad, dusted out the old DVD'S and launched an internet crusade to glorify them; its obvious they all have a retarded vision about their child hood hereos, no one is an exception there.
A player who scores 42 goals whilst having more shots on goal than any other player in his team and getting into the box probably more than the "forwards/strikers" is not a conventional winger. To score 42 goals and have a handful of assists does not strike me as wing play.
This argument regarding Ronaldo’s positioning last season has been done to death, most reasonable minded people realized that whilst Ronaldo would start in a wide position he had the freedom and licence of a forward and that is what made him so devastating. It's an argument we had in this very thread, probably about 10 pages back (since this thread is a beast), I’m surprised you missed it.
Well said that man.
I found it humorous, and somewhat relieving that the two dullards I had the most run-in's on here just so happened to be the two that are seen as the biggest muppets, idiots, and most despised posters already. At first I thought it was just me, but luckily it's been proven otherwise.
It's just a testament to the fact that even their own fellow supporters think they're mentally challenged.
Yeah,officially Ronaldo was a right winger but he had a lot more freedom than that one position.Having that freedom can even give more opportunities to score a goal than typical strikers.
Why would SAF bother explaining all of that in an interview,i'm sure he knows the Ronaldo role more than anybody just because he called him a winger doesn't mean Ronaldo played like one most of the time.
Why would SAF bother explaining all of that in an interview,i'm sure he knows the Ronaldo role more than anybody just because he called him a winger doesn't mean Ronaldo played like one most of the time.
having freedom to move around as a winger doesn't make him a striker/forward. and he isn't a conventional winger because he offers much more than just sticking to the flanks and wipping crosses in, given our dynamic attacking play, it'd be stupid to ask the best player in the world to just put crosses into the box for a couple of midgets to head into the net, but interchaneablity with forwards and movements away from the flanks doesn't mean one isn't a winger. Oh, and most reasonable minded people would take Ferguson's views over his players' positions and abilities ahead of some random internet warrior's.
he also pointed out that he played from a 'wing position'. Being a winger and playing from a 'wing position' more often than not means one is a winger rather than a striker/forward. of course he had lots of freedom to move about, that's why we play the free flowing dynamic football that we do, not a rigid and predictable formation with no interchangeability amongst the attacking players. You're right about SAF knowing Ronaldo's position more than anybody else though.
Just a simple question is yes we know how good Messi is this year , but would anyone of you take this years Messi over last years Ronaldo. I know which one I would have Viva Ronaldo.
The attack was played around Ronaldo because he's our best player and worth the luxury and it has reflected our success in the last couple of seasons yet this season with one more attacking player thrown in to the mix, we are still getting goals but lost the fluidity. United can still win 85% of the matches, with or without Ronaldo, but its that only extra 10% that separates trophies from also rans, and he gives the cutting edge.
As for this Ronaldo versus Henry debate, the self proclaimed invincible goon team was very much comparable to our current squad in almost every other position barring Rio, with the attack played around these two forwads yet we are already more sucessful than they ever were...for the reason Ronaldo at his best offers more to the attack than Henry did. Henry or Ronaldo both were succesful as Wenger and Fergie played the attack the around them, as both had the ability and worth the freedom they were given.
You first started this thread, by telling us Messi could become the greatest thing after sliced bread..now you lot claim Henry was that much special in his Arsenal days..Carry on!
Henry himself has already said Messi is the best player in the world.
What's going on here then?
Anyone who disagrees with the following:
a) Messi is the best player in the world this season, by a country mile. It remains to be seen whether he can maintain this level of performance but he's so young that there's every chance he's actually gonna get even better (barring recurrent injuries, his achilles heel).
b) Thierry Henry was/is a fantastic footballer and achieved a level of consistent brilliance at Arsenal that Ronaldo or Messi have yet to match
c) Ronaldo was sensational last season, is not quite firing this season but is still plenty young enough to eventually surpass Henry's achievements
seriously needs to remove their blinkers...
Anyone who disagrees with the following:
a) Messi is the best player in the world this season, by a country mile. It remains to be seen whether he can maintain this level of performance but he's so young that there's every chance he's actually gonna get even better (barring recurrent injuries, his achilles heel).
b) Thierry Henry was/is a fantastic footballer and achieved a level of consistent brilliance at Arsenal that Ronaldo or Messi have yet to match
c) Ronaldo was sensational last season, is not quite firing this season but is still plenty young enough to eventually surpass Henry's achievements
seriously needs to remove their blinkers...
I disagree with none of it.
I would say that both Ronaldo and Messi are more talented than Henry though. Not to say Henry is anything other than a world class footballer.
Yeah, I would agree with that. It's scary how complete they are at such a young age and how good they could become when they're the same age as Henry in his pomp.
that concept is a bit vaque for two reasons
first, your definition of consistence would be quite arbitrary, Ronaldo has been quite brilliant for two whole seasons and he was brilliant at a level last season at which Henry barely has played
secondly, there isn't one level of brilliance, there are different levels and Messi has played occasionally at a level impossible for Henry IMO: I mean, at moments Messi has been the closest thing to Maradona in the last 20-25 years, i.e. to arguably the best player ever
yes, he doesn't play consistently at this highest level but the point is that there are different levels of brilliance and Messi can occasioanly play at a higher level than Henry's best level
was Henry consistently brilliant in the finals in which he played with Arsenal and France? I read somewhere that he failed to score a goal in 8 big finals. Does the same hold about Ronaldo? No.
Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Do you disagree that Henry maintained a consistent level of peak peformance for longer than Messi and Ronaldo? I mean, it stands to reason really. Players don't really achieve their most consistent form until their mid to late twenties.
My definition of consistence isn't arbitrary, by the way. When Henry was at his peak he performed at a level of consistent brilliance for a number of seasons in a row that Ronaldo and Messi have yet to match. They have both had one really, really good season, two if you're being generous.
It's arbitrary as you cannot define in a reasonable way how many good seasons constitute consistency: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? If you say "at least 4", then you better say that Ronaldo and Messi are still very young as speaking about consistency would be pointless. They are consistently brilliant in the last seasons, at age at which Henry was a flop at Juventus.
How could it be generous to say that Ronaldo has had two great seasons provided that he was player of the season in the Prem 2006-07? He scored "only" 23 but he had 14 assists in the league alone.
Messi and Ronaldo reached levels of performance that were impossible for the young Henry and I would say that in certain periods over last season (Ronaldo) and this season (Messi) they played at a level at which even the mature Henry didn't play.
If I have to choose between Messi, Ronaldo and Henry at their best, Henry as good as he was, would start on the bench.
Ronaldo has already managed to achieve more at club level than Henry and this is not only because United are bigger than Arsenal. He scored in the big final, Henry missed two golden chances against Barca. Henry was consistently brilliant? Not in the big finals IMO.
That's probably true, but on the other hand, both Ronaldo last season and Messi so far this season has shown their "peak" is above anything Henry ever managed.
Ronaldo has had two excellent seasons now. He was sensational in 2006/7 season as well. His performance over the CL semis against Milan seems to have clouded people's judgement of his overall performance that season.
L'Arse fan agreeing with L'Arse fan shocker...
L'Arse fans in thinking that people who don't think of Henry as ze best player in ze vorld ever ever are "dullards"...
Well said, I've been saying for years that Henry has bottled major final after major final in his career.
I hope he starts if we make it to the CL final and face Barca.
well, there is always a first time, it would be better if we leave to Liverpool or Chelsea to throw them out and then, provided that we do well, to beat Liverpool in the final. That would be sweet!
well, there is always a first time, it would be better if we leave to Liverpool or Chelsea to throw them out and then, provided that we do well, to beat Liverpool in the final. That would be sweet!
I'd rather Lyon take care of Barca, let's see where all those "Barca are so great, Messi is the best ever" crowd flock to...
I hope we get to beat Liverpool next round.
The team that beats the team that knocks out Real Madrid and all that.
That cliche is as tired and untrue as the one about Ronaldo being a big-game bottler.
Ronaldo has scored against all the big teams and in cup finals (including the CL final).
Henry has played in WC final, Euro final, CL final and failed to scored in all of those.
Without Ronaldo's single goal against Chelsea, those stats look a lot less impressive.
And failing to score in a cup final doesn't mean a player is a big-game bottler at all, that's stupid logic. All you're doing is judging players by a tiny sub-set of games, rather than looking at their career as a whole. Henry has scored plenty of goals against big teams (not least a couple of screamers against United) and he's scored crucial goals in massive games for both Arsenal and France.
Wayne Rooney has never scored in a cup-final (or even a semi-final, come to think of it) is he a big-game bottler?
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