I guess you think that Kluivert is a better player than Van Nistelrooy...
Ruud was still playing for Den Bosch when Kluivert was winning the Champs League.
Lionel Messi
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I guess you think that Kluivert is a better player than Van Nistelrooy...
Ruud was still playing for Den Bosch when Kluivert was winning the Champs League.
Why are things so black and white for you ?
muppet!
ironic, considering that some in the Spanish press said in the immediate aftermath: 'Ronaldo is now truly the greatest player on the planet. Only great players miss penalties in the finals of major competitions'.
guess who the other acknowledged great players to do that are?
Just an example that your age theory doesn't hold.
I never said it was a theory you could apply to every player
.
muppet!
ironic, considering that some in the Spanish press said in the immediate aftermath: 'Ronaldo is now truly the greatest player on the planet. Only great players miss penalties in the finals of major competitions'.
guess who the other acknowledged great players to do that are?
Maradona, Platini, Van Basten...
I never said it was a theory you could apply to every player
Right, so Messi at 21 is better than Ronaldo at 21 "proves" Messi is a better player than Ronaldo.
Kluivert at 21 was better than RvN at 21 doesn't prove anything at all...
What are you getting at?
To be fair Kluivert at his best was a match for van Nistelrooy.
I should have used "indicates" and not "proves" ,it's a mistake I acknowledge.
and the season before that one - when he was much, much better than last season.
I see your point and I agree with it to a certain extent.Ronaldo was more pleasing to watch as a footballer 2 years ago but you cannot say he was much much better than last season.
i think he was.
the variety in his play was astounding. dribbling, running at and past players (Reading's captain compared the effect of his passage as 'like trying to tackle the wind'), scoring goals - and, particularly, making them.
last season, he became a great goalscorer, but lacked that variety.
Fair enough but still ...
...FV, it seems to me, has an agenda against Ronaldo. i know Brad will probably accuse me of being paranoid again, but i calls it like i sees it.
FV, Messi is a great player, no doubt about that. but do you really think that the only way to show that is to claim that Ronaldo isn't a great player in his own right? - if that's your M.O., then my suspicions are confirmed.
after all the boy has achieved given his young age, it'll take a seriously objective, fact-based and coherent argument to convince me he isn't a great player. none of which you've presented.
FV, Messi is a great player, no doubt about that. but do you really think that the only way to show that is to claim that Ronaldo isn't a great player in his own right? - if that's your M.O., then my suspicions are confirmed.
after all the boy has achieved given his young age, it'll take a seriously objective, fact-based and coherent argument to convince me he isn't a great player. none of which you've presented.
That is I think I disagree...
All correct. Despite his protests, it is clear as a day that FV has an agenda against Ronaldo.
Sorry, but your age theory neither proves nor indicates anything - players mature at different age.
Otherwise I can just apply this same argument to my frequent Henry debates.
Incidently, Zidane hardly set the world alight in the early part of his career, what do you say to that?
Ronaldo is a great player. World player and of the Year and the rightful Ballon D'or holder, he had a remarkable season and is a world class player.
Messi has more about him that says he will go onto be the best of his generation. That is my opinion, not that Ronaldo isn't a great player but just that Messi is a once in a generation sort of player.
then why bring up an irrelevance about him missing two penalties in the semis and finals of the CL - use that as a black mark against him, when some of the greatest players to have played the game have missed crucial penalties at similar stages of big events?
why claim that his contributions last season had little impact on our success, that somehow 42 goals, golden boot and top scorer in the CL means he had a negligible impact on our season?
fair enough, you reckon Messi's a once-in-a-generation sort of player. you're entitled to your opinion. but it seems to me that in attempting to elevate Messi, you're denigrating Ronaldo, poo-pooing his achievements. for instance, you dismissively said all Ronaldo had was 'a great season' last season. you ignore how strongly he came on when we put together a great run in the latter stages of 2005/06. or how great he played in WC06, especially in the semi-final, when, in a field containing a Zidane who had outplayed the much-lauded Brazilian side, he was hands-down, the best player on the park. you ignore his massive contribution to our 2006/07 season, when IMO he was much better than Kaka, but lost the Balon D'Or because of one average night in Milan. you ignore his contributions to Portugal during this same period as well.
it might seem to you the boy has been around ages. but he's only 23. i'll give you a fact: Ronaldo has improved every single season he's been with us. every single season. > 42 goals might be difficult to match, granted, but one thing Ronaldo does is find different facets of his game.
you're entitled to hand out plaudits this early. but, please, don't take me for a fool and try to feign objectivity. your words betray you.
Well let's just say statistically Messi hasn't really reach Ronaldo's level yet, but not far from it though. (afterall he was twice voted runners-up of World player of the year, and currently the best/most effective player in the past 6 months.)
Performance wise, I think most here would agree Messi is more dominant in games than Ronaldo.
Right now, I would say they are even. In few years time, my money would on Messi for the best player.
Performance wise, I think most here would agree Messi is more dominant in games than Ronaldo.
Right now, I would say they are even. In few years time, my money would on Messi for the best player.
I think most United fans don't like Messi for the simple reason of jealousy. We finally get our hands on another player who gets voted the best in the world, long after Best, for which we can be very proud. But all the while there's a niggling thought in the backs of our minds that, really, he isn't the best player in the world, and that there is one stand-out candidate for that award who is leaving all the others in the dust.
Whatsmore, it's not going to be long before the rest of the world notices and Messi gets the plaudits he deserves - and once again the attention will shift away from Manchester United and its players. We won't be able to boast of having the best players in the world any longer - we're finally able to do so and then it's almost instantly snatched away again.
Whatsmore, it's not going to be long before the rest of the world notices and Messi gets the plaudits he deserves - and once again the attention will shift away from Manchester United and its players. We won't be able to boast of having the best players in the world any longer - we're finally able to do so and then it's almost instantly snatched away again.
Sorry, but your age theory neither proves nor indicates anything - players mature at different age.
Otherwise I can just apply this same argument to my frequent Henry debates.
Incidently, Zidane hardly set the world alight in the early part of his career, what do you say to that?
Once again I didn't say it's a theory
. I didn't say it applies to everyone,is it that hard to understand ?Ronaldo will retain his awards if we win the CL, it's pretty clear now that is how these votes work in the past few seasons.
The CL winner's "star player" gets named as World footballer of the Year, at least in non-WC years...
Once again I didn't say it's a theory
So to conclude:
You think that Messi 21> Ronaldo 21 = Messi>Ronaldo
Ronaldo 21>>>>>>>>>>>Zidane 21 =/= Ronaldo> Zidane
In fact your theory only applies to Messi & Ronaldo?
You're really thick aren't you ? I didn't say it applies to every player and that it can be a good indication.The rest is your interpretation
no. and no. and no. and no.
no. i don't dislike Messi. i've always thought he was destined for great things, esp. after watching him in the Youth World Cup. what i don't like is people with a history of hating Ronaldo mouthing off pretending to be objective and making silly arguments about it. yes, you, FV.
no. i don't have a niggling suspicion at the back of my head about Ronaldo. the past two seasons, no one has come close to him. even Kaka in 2006-07. all Kaka did was show up in the CL, but over the course of the season, Ronaldo was better. and no, i don't hate Kaka. see 'no' #1 above.
no. the rest of the world knows about Messi this season. hell, one gets the feeling that Ronaldo was given his awards only grudgingly. after all, it was obvious to anyone and their blind, retarded uncle, that Ronaldo was the best young player at WC06. but he didn't get the award did he? just the other day, Hiddink came out with a bunch of nonsense to make a case against it. no. the rest of the world will jump at the chance to crown Messi, there's no doubt in my mind. he's less hated. hell, they might even add Dani Alves see?
no. Manchester United is Manchester United. we sell papers and always have, not because of Ronaldo, but because we are Manchester United. to claim otherwise is to rank yourself with a bunch of subliterate, trailer-park morons. and only an idiot would claim that we don't have some of teh best players in the world. matter of fact, i'm not sure quite how to respond to that. your 'reasoning' is so far off the mark, it isn't even wrong.
so, i'd suggest you dispense with the faux-Freudian bullshit; it might help you to know that his ideas have been long discredited.
You're really thick aren't you ? I didn't say it applies to every player and that it can be a good indication.The rest is your interpretation
So I was right, your little theory only applies to Messi-Ronaldo comparisons, not anywhere else.
Glad we've cleared that up.
Agree here, still can't see why people think he's sticking to the wing this season - generally it seems he starts off for the first 20 odd minutes on the wings, then begins to get tired of not being involved enough so sticks about in the middle for the majority of the rest of the match.
The only difference I see in his style is that he's not threatening in behind as much, although that could be down to his form and confidence levels but I don't really think that's the case.
Maybe Berbatov will get it? Ronaldo is not even close of being the best player for us this season. I think Rooney would have better chance too.
It remains to be seen if he can recapture his form, a few goals in the knockout stage (another one in the final) and he'll be right up there again.
He is far from his best form, Rooney or Berbatov would have better chance with a few goals in the knockout stage.
Possibly, but he has shown in the past couple of games that he's finding his feet again.
I think the fact he's been sticking to the wing more this season is the reason people think he's been sticking to the wing more
I think the fact Brwned agrees with Pogue here only strengthens my conviction that I'm correct
I bet he won't.
Isn't that bordering on hypocrisy?
FV's said before that he doesn't dislike Ronaldo, that he thinks he's destined for great things and he deserved the Ballon D'or.
So after going on a rant about someone getting their facts straight before making accusations like that, you do the same thing towards someone else.
No-one hates Ronaldo, no-one hates Messi and everyone feels they're objective in the Messi-Ronaldo argument.
Thing is there is absolutely no way to back-up that claim, personally I think FV's biased against Ronaldo but he does think he's being objective, and isn't trying to be biased.
Everyone has their favourites and subconsciously base some of their arguments on this particular dislike.
Nothing you can do about it, other than just leave it out of the argument because it adds nothing to the argument.
Oh, and I realise this seems to have turned into a rant, but it's not at you at all just trying to make a point in general. I actually think you're spot on about most things.
I think the fact he's been sticking to the wing more this season is the reason people think he's been sticking to the wing more
I think the fact Brwned agrees with Pogue here only strengthens my conviction that I'm correct
Glad to see my opinion's so highly thought of then.
The thing is, anything bordering on facts to back-up where he's played this season says that he has played as our furthest forward player quite centrally for the majority of the season (e.g. the heat map for on the Telegraph website).
It's not a great indicator of where he plays for the entire match though, since it only takes into account his position when he's on the ball, but still.
You bet he won't retain his awards as we won't retain the CL or you bet Messi will win those awards even if United win the CL?
you should read the rest of the thread before jumping on my back based on a post he made when i pointed out to him what he'd done.
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