Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
That's harsh.
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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That's harsh.
Oooops, I didn't think of that.
From the start of Messi's career with Argentina until Maradona left, he had scored an incredible 15 goals in 54 international games or 0.27 gpg. Since Maradona left, he has scored 17 in 24 games or 0.71 gpg, which is some difference. So, there must be some reason for this to happen.
I never said Xavi is BPITW. Clearly you missunderstood my post and my intention. I agree that Messi is the best player in the world by some distance.
I'm more interested to see how Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber is going to multiquote this one..
I'll give it a shot:
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber's next reply said:
If Messi doesn't win a world cup then he will never be considered GOAT.
No, no excuses can be accepted.
When did I say Messi has to win the world cup to be considered GOAT?!
Close enough?
Oooops, I didn't think of that.
From the start of Messi's career with Argentina until Maradona left, he had scored an incredible 15 goals in 54 international games or 0.27 gpg. Since Maradona left, he has scored 17 in 24 games or 0.71 gpg, which is some difference. So, there must be some reason for this to happen.
His record under Arg managers in full:
José PEKERMAN (15.09.2004 - 30.06.2006): 10 apps (4 starts), 2 goals (0p), 2 assists -- 0.20 gpg + [won 1 pen.]
Alfio BASILE (14.09.2006 - 16.10.2008): 25 apps (24 starts), 9 goals (1p), 6 assists -- 0.36 gpg + [won 1 pen.]
Diego MARADONA (04.11.2008 - 27.07.2010): 15 apps (15 starts), 2 goals (1p), 2 assists -- 0.13 gpg
Sergio BATISTA (27.07.2010 - 25.07.2011): 11 apps (11 starts), 4 goals (1p), 6 assists -- 0.36 gpg + [scored pen. in shoot-out]
Alejandro SABELLA (30.07.2011 - present): 17 apps (17 starts), 15 goals (2p), 7 assists -- 0.88 gpg* + [missed 1 pen.] / [scored 2 free-kicks]
Under Pekerman he was a teenager mainly used as a sub, but he still had a higher gpg than under Maradona. Under Basile and Batista he had a respectable gpg (roughly the same as Maradona's career gpg) + plenty of assists.
This is the problem when we are discussing Messi. There is no middle ground. I think nobody dispute he's the BPITW, on his way to be the best ever. But he's not there yet and so far he's not the leader and have the same charisma as other superstars.
But I give his PR agents credit to have shaped up his media profile the last two years, more likable adds and pr campaigns and less analfabetic interviews.
You make it sound like Leo is some PR machine, he's probably the least PR handled pro athlete in the world - what you see is what you get. He's merely maturing and becoming more comfortable with his stature/notoriety/success and the responsibility that comes with that
Lest we forget, he's just 25 years old
Lest we forget, he's just 25 years old
His media profile? Since he burst onto the scene he's always been viewed as the quiet genius. That hasn't really changed, still a very private guy.
Tend to agree I don't think he's as manufactured as someone like Ronaldo.
I think having charisma, being the icon of the team is an extension of one's ability as a footballer, the better Messi is at developing this facet of his being as a footballer, the closer he will get to surpassing all the other greats. All the greatest players of all time had this.. Messi is a tad shy but I think he's got it in him, if you read books on Barca.. or Pep's book, this isn't no shrinking violet, he's hungry, he's a monster and he is incredibly driven.
I don't see him being a Scholes, Xavi and Iniesta.. he's definitely got an individual streak to him and he is capable of driving a team, he's just needed to mature. On another note I don't think Chief said Messi needs to win a WC, he said he needs to have an iconic tournament performance and I would agree. He needs to leave memories...
a couple of things:
first your post wasnt the topic in my argument with 7even, but him insulting every poster
second, i might have misundertood your post, but this phrase:
was pretty misleading and made me think that you say that "Xavi is still by far the best player in the world"
I think becoming a father, with all responsibilities who follows, has helped him a lot. Nothing wrong being shy, you should se old Scandinavian stars, but when you're on your way becoming the best you need to shape up, otherwise the media will expose your weaknesses and it will affect people's mind of you. First impression ....
Today I like him as private person, but it's not much I know who isn't orchestrated by his sponsors or agent.
Oooops, I didn't think of that.
From the start of Messi's career with Argentina until Maradona left, he had scored an incredible 15 goals in 54 international games or 0.27 gpg. Since Maradona left, he has scored 17 in 24 games or 0.71 gpg, which is some difference. So, there must be some reason for this to happen.
He's gotten better. His record for Barcelona, in that same time period, has also improved. It's natural that a player is better at age 25 than he was at 21.
As Skorenzy stated, his gpg record was better as a teenager than when he was playing under Maradona so, there must have been something wrong. If the current manager had been the manager in the 2010 World Cup, I would have to say that they might have got further, but that is a big if.
That not a big "if" P_L.Maradona was and still is a clueless coach, the players he left in that WC had amazing seasons and he had this thing to play with 2 center backs as his full backs.Argentina would have done better without that idiot
Who cares?
He's the greatest player I've ever seen, barring Maradona. He might be pure unadulterated evil as a 'private person' as far as I know. Wouldn't change a thing.
Don't forget he only became a father just over 4 months ago. His maturation occurred before that, I'd even say it coincided with the captaincy with Argentina and an increasing role at Barcelona (He captained the team only recently, for the first time)
His interviews are what I find most telling because he talks now, is pretty direct and while still soft spoken, does not shy away from interviews after a loss or disappointment. I imagine he was aware that the media would expose his weaknesses or discomfort in front of the camera but he's treated quite well by both the media and fans pretty much everywhere he goes. Closest thing to footballing royalty from what I gather, tbh
He's been quiet since he was a kid and friends & teammates all are unequivocal in how grounded and lowkey he has remained throughout everything. This isn't a Michael Jordan persona.
Made me think about how Kun first met Leo and didn't know who he was
This is a interesting subject. The difference between a star and a superstar is huge. Almost everybody who have witness such a journey or being close to such a process knows this is like living in two different worlds. Some are born with natural charisma and loves the life in the lime light, others are more shy and prefer more privacy. If you are going to be a superstar you have to accept what comes with it.
Off course nobody knows everything about Messi, maybe except his family and closest friends, but a person who direct or indirect delivers some sort of a ultimatum to his coach, to get rid of competitors in his own team, isn't exactly all together shy or lack confidence. Just to clarify, I think there is nothing wrong with his action regarding this but not all of us would even thinking about such a move. My impression of him is that he knows his value and isn't shy of express his goals.
Maybe kicking Ibra out of Barca was what he needed to blossom in his personal development. Maybe Zlatan took to much space and limelight from a ambitious little winger. Many great athlete's have this character and demands total focus to produce their best. By showing himself and the club his honest intentions he probably mentally grew as a player and was ready to take the final step to become the undisputed BPITW.
This is off course much speculation from my side but posters with a little insight in this subject knows what I want to express.
I don't think you can become the best without having a huge ego and willing to almost commit murder to reach those heights. Without any other comparisons look at our own Ryan Giggs private life, only a person with a extreme personality can do what he did. Some of you don't like CR7 because his selfishness but I think both him and Messi are similar in that way they both knows what it takes to reach the top.
I hope we will see a more nuanced picture of Lionell Messi in the future, his football ability's is above criticism, lets see if he has the rest to become the best ever.
Maybe Zlatan was kicked out because he was difficult to deal with, far too egotistical and when he got dropped he had flat out sucked for a run of games?
Zlatan's main issue seems to be with Messi playing through the middle. Don't forget he played through the middle at the tail end of the previous season too when they tanked Madrid 6-2 and won 2-0 in Rome. When he moved to the centre and Zlatan was dropped it was the correct thing to do because he started banging the goals in left, right and centre and they did win the league.
Sorry I know Zlatan's ego took a bit of a bruising there but I don't buy the stuff about Messi getting players kicked out of the team. If he could do that he'd surely have got them to kick Alexis Sanchez out the door a long time ago!
Zlatan's main issue seems to be with Messi playing through the middle. Don't forget he played through the middle at the tail end of the previous season too when they tanked Madrid 6-2 and won 2-0 in Rome. When he moved to the centre and Zlatan was dropped it was the correct thing to do because he started banging the goals in left, right and centre and they did win the league.
Sorry I know Zlatan's ego took a bit of a bruising there but I don't buy the stuff about Messi getting players kicked out of the team. If he could do that he'd surely have got them to kick Alexis Sanchez out the door a long time ago!
Before my iphone ran out of juice last night, somebody asked me why I rate Messi above Mardona. A fair question, in light of Maradona's genius.
Two points. The first starts with the naked eye, as unreliable a judge as it may be. Messi just "looks" better, at least to me. He can score in every way imaginable, including headers on crosses over accomplished defenders like Rio in his prime. The mazy runs, the shots from outside the box, the soft chips over keepers. And the passes he comes up with for his mates in the last third. Maradona did all that too, but Messi just does it a little better. My opinion...others may disgaree.
But Messi's numbers are staggering. Others have put up the numbers here. They're beyond belief. And his consistency...he blows Maradona awaw with respect to consistency of outstanding performances.
Ah, but what about the World Cup argument? That's been pretty well flushed (some people say "fleshed"...never understood where that comes from) out. The burden definitely is on Messi to win a World Cup to silence his doubters, but I've felt that "winning" a World Cup, as though one man actually wins it, is ridiculously overrated. Cruyff never won a World Cup, though no one doubts him. But Maradona did "win" a World Cup and there's no question he led the Argies to that win. We'll never know otherwise, but Messi was managed by a ridiculously incompetent manager in 2010, a deficiency which has been rectified and Messi's numbers are showing outrageous productivity. But whether the Argies win the WC in 2014 or not, for me Messi has already blown by Maradona in terms of pure footballing excellence, leaving him next to only Pele.
Two points. The first starts with the naked eye, as unreliable a judge as it may be. Messi just "looks" better, at least to me. He can score in every way imaginable, including headers on crosses over accomplished defenders like Rio in his prime. The mazy runs, the shots from outside the box, the soft chips over keepers. And the passes he comes up with for his mates in the last third. Maradona did all that too, but Messi just does it a little better. My opinion...others may disgaree.
But Messi's numbers are staggering. Others have put up the numbers here. They're beyond belief. And his consistency...he blows Maradona awaw with respect to consistency of outstanding performances.
Ah, but what about the World Cup argument? That's been pretty well flushed (some people say "fleshed"...never understood where that comes from) out. The burden definitely is on Messi to win a World Cup to silence his doubters, but I've felt that "winning" a World Cup, as though one man actually wins it, is ridiculously overrated. Cruyff never won a World Cup, though no one doubts him. But Maradona did "win" a World Cup and there's no question he led the Argies to that win. We'll never know otherwise, but Messi was managed by a ridiculously incompetent manager in 2010, a deficiency which has been rectified and Messi's numbers are showing outrageous productivity. But whether the Argies win the WC in 2014 or not, for me Messi has already blown by Maradona in terms of pure footballing excellence, leaving him next to only Pele.
Important to recognize that the 'kicking Ibra out' speculation on Leo is nothing more than unsubstantiated innuendo. It's a bit like thinking Guillem Balague is credible. Zlatan has worn out his welcome everywhere and Pep wanted him out more than likely because he wouldn't tow the club line and he was too static for Barcelona's passing game.
Interestingly enough, I think Ibrahimovic has been better since he left the club and I wonder if that experience humbled him a little despite being critical of it when he was there and on the way out. Some think it bruised his massive ego but eventually he 'got it' which might explain how he's worked harder since
As for Leo, every teammate of his has only glowing things to say about him...even Ibra
Interestingly enough, I think Ibrahimovic has been better since he left the club and I wonder if that experience humbled him a little despite being critical of it when he was there and on the way out. Some think it bruised his massive ego but eventually he 'got it' which might explain how he's worked harder since
As for Leo, every teammate of his has only glowing things to say about him...even Ibra
Everybody is free to have their own thoughts about this, and maybe you're right, I don't think we will exactly see a full confession from those involved but I agree that Zlatan is a complex character and didn't exactly covered himself with glory in the dressing room. But I'm experienced enough to know that political decisions are made everywhere there is fame, money and competition. Selling Ibrahimovic was the logical decision at the time but it wasn't in Barcelona's long term plans to buy and sell such a high profile player after one year. Either their scouting systems sucks or something else forced them to panic.
Well Guardiola's had a few big money flops I think. But I don't think the Messi being a little general thing is true at all. That's just crap that Guillem Balague spins because he's butt hurt about Messi keeping Spanish players from winning the Ballon D'or!
Why would I change my stance completely just because a year has passed?
I've never posted anything positive about Messi in here eh
:Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
and those 3 statements are just from the last few days...
You are out of your mind that's what. Some of you are so desperate to ''PROVE'' that I have some anti Messi agenda.
Well that is your own problem. Personally, I don't see why I should stop posting in a thread in which people keep insisting Messi has already proven he is the best ever, when there are still things he hasn't achieved yet to deserve that status. It has feck all to do with Messi. I have nothing what so ever against him. I'd be saying the same things if it was another player being talked about. The player himself knows what performing at a world cup means and has openly admitted to not quite doing well at that level yet, a thing he is determined to fix. So its ironic his fan bois on here get extremely agitated when anyone points out the same.
contender for the biggest hypocrite on the internet? Yours couldn't be any more childish, you called me a dumb ass
The only thing that doesn't go well is you repeated straw men. You repeatedly inventing positions for a person and attacking them with vigor only makes you look stupid. For that is arguing with yourself.
It's obvious to anyone that those stats show they should have done better than lose 4-0. It really isn't hard to understand.
Yes they did. But I'm sure you think its Maradona's s fault too that they couldn't make such chances count.
A fact no one disputed...
Maradona? I don't care.
I'm leaving that to jokers like you. The type of idiot who thinks only the departure of Maradona is the reason Messi has been doing better in a national shirt.
No excuses.
I just say this though. If you think its 1) reasonable 2) fair in any way to keep to a ''Messi must win a world cup'' stance after saying recently:
Which is admitting publicly that the current Argentine side are not good enough to help a Messi bag a world cup.Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Be my guest. I failed to because I'm not determined to see Messi never named the G.O.A.T by the time his career ends.
One, Ibra was Plan B. Plan A was Villa and Laporta balked at the negotiating stance of Valencia when they were confident the player wanted the move and Los Che needed the money. So it was never a longterm plan with Ibra, it was a stop gap measure after the longterm plan they mapped out failed to materialize. Even Laporta acknowledges the decision to pursue Ibra transpired during a plane trip over Italy.
Two, the club has never kept a player that either didn't want to be there or was being a disruption. You move players like that nevermind agents like Pizza Boy who unsettle a team. Those were Pep's demands and even the player himself singled out Pep as the reason the experiment failed. It wasn't 'something else', it was Ibra and it wasn't his talent. The same Ibra that has unsettled his time at every club he's been at - just follow the cookie crumbs instead of inventing convenient conspiracy theories
One player wore his welcome out everywhere he's played and is renowned for his massive ego, the other has only played for one club team his entire career and no teammate has ever accused him of anything remotely sinister or megalomaniacal
Am I the only one that thinks Chief has quite a reasoned opinion? Whether you agree with it or not, he has solid points and an understanding of the topic.
Maybe people need to get back to talking about Messi in the Messi thread rather than other posters...
Maybe people need to get back to talking about Messi in the Messi thread rather than other posters...
This is the problem when we discuss Messi, it's almost impossible to have a meaningful conversation because in the end it's either black or white. Do you honestly think that both Barcelona and Messi is always innocent and white as snow?
I also agree with Chief. I have no problem to acknowledge his achievements and recognize him as a superior goalscorer, but I don't by the hype that he's the best ever without performing at the WC. Not yet.
This is a football forum and fan boys are like young politicians, totally devoted to their cause. I continue to sit on the fence with a smile a let the history do the job for me. Over and out.
Chief, if the world cup is the real test for a player ability, can we conclude that: Baggio >>> Ronaldo (who only scored 2 goals in 2 world cups, one from the penalty spot, and the other was the sixth goal in a 7-0 win)?
The thing that you don't want to admit is that world cup success has much more do with luck than club success. You show your form in a world cup, but your class with your club, simply because you play much more games with you club to show your real abilities than you do in world cups (barely 15 games).
The thing that you don't want to admit is that world cup success has much more do with luck than club success. You show your form in a world cup, but your class with your club, simply because you play much more games with you club to show your real abilities than you do in world cups (barely 15 games).
Don't kid yourself. You're not sitting on the fence, you're simply on the other side of the fence.He doesn't even understand what he wants:
WTF
Also that last bit.
Why look for a conspiracy when there isn't any history or basis for it? I'd counter that this is the problem when Messi is discussed, he's so exceptional that many will invent arguments to try & diminish how unique he is
Performing in big games was always what mattered most. Great ability and performing consistently to a very high level is what brings you in the room. Performing in the most important games in the world is the reason why you're allowed to sit down on the all time great table. Do you think performing in 6 CL group games is more important than being the best player in the CL final? Because you know, one game is just about form? Of course not.
There's simply no reason why Messi should have been out of form for all his world cup appearances when his career is over. The only reason to make such a flawed point is if you want to name him the greatest of all time more than 10 years before his career is over which is imo disrespectful to everything the former greats achieved. Beckenbauer didn't show "form" in 74 for example, he showed class on and off the pitch, played an outstanding tournament and united a disrupted team. That had nothing to do with form.
I don't mind if someone thinks that his overall play is that good, never before seen, that he already surpassed everyone else. But please stop calling performing at world cups unimportant. That's just sad.
It's CR7's fault that he has mostly underwhelmed at world cups. Not bad luck, loss of form, inept teamates or coaching. So you can bet your life I rate Baggio above him in greatness stakes.
Because that argument is fecking crap! Anyone who believes a Cruyff in 74 world cup, Pele as a teenager in 58 then later as a seasoned pro in 1970, Maradona in 86, Zizou in 2006, Baggio in 94, Eusebio in 66 etc excelled due to plain lack and form, rather than due to showing class and character is just an idiot frankly. The world cup is called a world cup finals for a reason. It is a culmination of a long proccess of qualifying, the 8-15 biggest games in international football. A world cup win is thus a culmination of all the work done in the preliminaries of world cup qualifying till you become king of the hill. It is much more than just a few games every 4 years. It is a proccess just as testing as trying to lift a UEFA champions league title. Arguably even more so because coaches, team mates and tactics don't stay the same from start to finish an any chance to rectify a failure has to wait 4 years. A performing in a world cup is to football, what doing well in an olympics is to an athlete. You can NEVER devalue it.
I don't personally think winning the World Cup defines how great a player is. The team wins the World Cup, not a single player. There have been fantastic players in the past who stood no chance of winning the World Cup due to being unable to carry a very average-standard of team. That's not their fault - and it would be unfair to downgrade them simply because their team-mates aren't anywhere close to their league.
I think Messi is the greatest. I'm only 19, so of course I didn't get to see some of the greats playing in the past - but I've read/listened to many opinions of those who had seen the likes of Maradona or Pele etc; and the majority have all come to the same conclusion that Messi is simply the best.
I'm not even a fan of Messi. I don't actually think I like him at all - but I love watching him play, simply because there aren't many like him.
I think Messi is the greatest. I'm only 19, so of course I didn't get to see some of the greats playing in the past - but I've read/listened to many opinions of those who had seen the likes of Maradona or Pele etc; and the majority have all come to the same conclusion that Messi is simply the best.
I'm not even a fan of Messi. I don't actually think I like him at all - but I love watching him play, simply because there aren't many like him.
I see the Chief is raging in the multi quote battles again
Keep fighting the good fight mate
Keep fighting the good fight mate
The only thing that doesn't go well is you repeated straw men. You repeatedly inventing positions for a person and attacking them with vigor only makes you look stupid. For that is arguing with yourself.
It's obvious to anyone that those stats show they should have done better than lose 4-0. It really isn't hard to understand.
Yes they did. But I'm sure you think its Maradona's s fault too that they couldn't make such chances count.
A fact no one disputed...
Maradona? I don't care.
I'm leaving that to jokers like you. The type of idiot who thinks only the departure of Maradona is the reason Messi has been doing better in a national shirt.
Classic Chief ..the multiquotes are back
We all agree that this Argentina side Messi's in isn't a great side but the idea that he couldn't possibly succeed in a team with Di María, Tévez and Higuaín against a well-drilled unit like Germany was surely put to bed earlier this year? 3-1 Argentina with Aguero and Higuaín ahead of Messi and Di María in midfield. Without the red card Argentina might not have won but they still played excellent football with those four. Since then they've beaten Ecuador 4-0, Uruguay 3-0 and a few others quite comfortably playing with those same four. It wasn't the perfect system but playing Di María in midfield is not something only a buffoon like Maradona would do, it's a position he played in earlier that season for Benfica and he's played there since for the national team plenty of times.
I think Maradona was trying to mirror the '82 side in some ways with Di María playing the Kempes role and Messi playing the Maradona role in a midfield quartet and if they'd performed on the day it could have been successful, IMO. Messi just couldn't get his shots right, Tévez had an off-day and Higuaín was inches away from setting up a goal a couple of times. With a bit of good fortune or a bit more inspiration they could've pulled it back to 1-1 some time before the hour mark but no-one really turned up. They needed someone to knit things together but Messi wasn't that player at that point, for the last 18 months or so he's looked ready to step into that role that inevitably all the great players step into.
Pelé was the record breaker of his time and by the time the 1970 World Cup came around he had already scored his "1000th" goal, dominated football on the club stage and scored eight goals in eight World Cup games. He'd pretty much established himself as the best player in the world by the time he turned 21 but he only established himself as the greatest in that 1970 World Cup when he took on the role of the conductor and leader. Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and co. all entered that top bracket when they became so good they dominated their own team. Pelé went full swing from getting just one assist in his first World Cup to seven assists in his swansong tournament and it's that progression that sets the very best apart. Messi will get there at some point and then you can judge him.
I think Maradona was trying to mirror the '82 side in some ways with Di María playing the Kempes role and Messi playing the Maradona role in a midfield quartet and if they'd performed on the day it could have been successful, IMO. Messi just couldn't get his shots right, Tévez had an off-day and Higuaín was inches away from setting up a goal a couple of times. With a bit of good fortune or a bit more inspiration they could've pulled it back to 1-1 some time before the hour mark but no-one really turned up. They needed someone to knit things together but Messi wasn't that player at that point, for the last 18 months or so he's looked ready to step into that role that inevitably all the great players step into.
Pelé was the record breaker of his time and by the time the 1970 World Cup came around he had already scored his "1000th" goal, dominated football on the club stage and scored eight goals in eight World Cup games. He'd pretty much established himself as the best player in the world by the time he turned 21 but he only established himself as the greatest in that 1970 World Cup when he took on the role of the conductor and leader. Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and co. all entered that top bracket when they became so good they dominated their own team. Pelé went full swing from getting just one assist in his first World Cup to seven assists in his swansong tournament and it's that progression that sets the very best apart. Messi will get there at some point and then you can judge him.
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