Lionel Messi

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marcosdeto said:
i see ... so performing during seven games -not even- during four world cup -at most- in your life is what makes you the best ever

beating record after record year by year, dont

i don't agree with that.

how about best? or Cruyff? or
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You're getting unnecessarily defensive. I didn't say one was it was one or the other. Both matter. Klose isn't considered among the greatest and players who don't shine at the biggest tournaments whilst getting opportunities aren't either. The games' greats should be doing both.

They both tell you something different about a player. Performing for your club is all about playing in a set up your used to consistently. On the other hand international tournaments and the World Cup tends to be about bring thrown into a set up and lifting your team to great heights over a series of high pressure games you don't get to come back from.

As for that game against Germany, you yourself admit that the attack was looking good but the defence was the problem. But Argentina didnt lose 4-3 with the attackers making use of their possession and messi's good work being ruined by he defence. Even he and the other attackers failed to make use of the moments and possession they had.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Yeah sure the cl is the "main" competition because you say so.

The World Cup has always been the sports most important prize and the fact that it is every 4 years makes it more special not less, and makes performing in it more high pressure not less. And for those reasons, it's important for the supposed best players to shine at that event. You don't get another chance the following year if you fail. At a club like barca, messi is always going to be in the semis. It's almost guaranteed. He has it a lot easier in that competition. I'd say him performing at the World Cup is a bigger test for him, which backs up what I said earlier as well.
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I'd go as far as to say that since he has at least 4 chances to star in the world most prestigious with a group of top class players, if he couldn't get it right for at least once, he doesn't deserve to rank alongside with Pele and Maradona, who had done it all.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I'd go as far as to say that since he has at least 4 chances to star in the world most prestigious with a group of top class players, if he couldn't get it right for at least once, he doesn't deserve to rank alongside with Pele and Maradona, who had done it all.
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I think he has 3 more good shots at it. I would expect him to be one of the main figures in at least two of them. I would expect the best player of his generation to be able to really turn it on in two world cups out of 4. Given the talent he has around him I don't see why that shouldn't be the case. Fat Ronaldo had two big world cups didnt he?
 
Brwned said:
Right now it's Messi, no question, but you said that in amongst a discussion about Maradona and co. - do you really think Di Stéfano wasn't tuning in to Maradona games?
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I don't own a Delorean so obviously I'm talking about now, I'm not the least bit interested in these discussions of GOAT and comparing players from different generations - that's a pointless exercise in futility. I can only go by what I see now and by a wide margin, I'd wager, there's no other player that commands the world's attention when they play - from fans to players
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I'm convinced he is the best at lobbing the ball in football history.
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kouroux said:
I have never seen anyone who uses so much and so efficiently.Messi chips the ball over keepers while running at a high pace, the control it takes to do that consistently is crazy.He can even do it on his right foot
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Gio said:
Yes he's mastered it, better than anyone. It's much to do with the slickness of pitches these days, that sort of finish simply wasn't a viable option on a sub-par surface, be it bobbly, hard or muddy.
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Tbh I did completely forget about Francesco Totti.Right and left foot lobs from ridiculous distances too ...
 
i wont explain again the merits of the players that surrounded maradona during the 1986 and 1990 world cup, i've said it too many times and it bores me

what i will say is that claiming that messi wont be the best player in the world if he doesnt win a world cup is like the ones that where saying that messi didnt deserve the ballon d'or last year because he didnt win la liga or the CL

it's a teams sport, you dont win alone and you still can be the best footballer and at the same time not be the most succesful

Messi has proven he can play better than anyone and he did that with a consistency i havent seen in any of the greatest of my time -from maradona (didnt see distefano, best, garrincha or pele)
 
marcosdeto said:
tell me another maradona brilliant moment during that world cup? we beat brazil, granted, it was the eight final, then we had to play against yugoslavia -maradona was anonimous- and we won over penalty shoot outs thanks to a brilliant performance by goycoechea
italy -maradona was anonimous- we won over penalty shoot outs thanks to a brilliant performance by goycoechea
and germany -maradona was anonimous
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The last post was in jest but I think you're under-appreciating his performances in 1990. Frankly he was kicked out of Italia '90: that tournament was the most negative and cynical in the history of the competition. Every time Maradona started off on one of his trademark runs, he got hauled down. Every time except once against Brazil, when he somehow evades a cynical take-down on the halfway line from Alemao(?) to slip Caniggia through. And once against Italy, when he ripped through the heart of one of the best international defences of all-time (no goals conceded until that semi-final) leaving Maldini and Baresi for dead to set up a fairly straightforward chance for Olarticoachea to mess up.



So what else did he do? Well he set up half a dozen good chances in the opening day defeat to Cameroon; was similarly productive against USSR and Romania; shackled reasonably well by Yugoslavia (who were a top team then); made the difference against Brazil despite some ugly treatment (think Alemao does a two-footed lunge on him that would today have brought a straight red) and was unstoppable during the final ten minutes. Italy he played well, made good use of the ball; West Germany did a decent job of curtailing him and the attack was blunted with Caniggia's suspension.

Ultimately he didn't hit the heights of '86 but the main point though is every time he got going he was chopped down - right through the tournament. The balance between defender and attacker was seriously skewed in Italia '90 and the punishment for bringing down a creative player was almost non-existent. Despite all of that, he still had a strong tournament and would be an easy choice for me in a team-of-the-tournament midfield alongside Matthaus and Gascoigne.
 
marcosdeto said:
you are kidding, right?
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I think most people are saying that irrespective of his team's achievements, he has to perform on a high level, comparable to how he plays for Barcelona, before they place him in the GOAT locker. No one is saying he has to win the World Cup (or Copa, for that matter).
 
Messi is definitely the best player in the world right now, and probably the best in the last decade, but to become best of all time, he still has two players clearly ahead of him - Pele and Maradona, in terms of overall achievement/heights they reached during their respective careers.
If say he could dominate or even win a big international competition in future, which many great players did in their time, then most will have less doubts of him to rank along side with these two very best player of all time, Pele and Maradona, in terms of ability and achievement. Even if he fails to win any, he will still be comfortably become 3rd best player of all time based on ability and club achievement, and probably rank alongside with Di Stefano, who had won 5 European Cups, which is no shame at all.
I think that's very fair assessment, even Messi himself would have admit this.
 
adexkola said:
I think most people are saying that irrespective of his team's achievements, he has to perform on a high level, comparable to how he plays for Barcelona, before they place him in the GOAT locker. No one is saying he has to win the World Cup (or Copa, for that matter).
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I've said it, and believe it.

With that in mind, though, Argentina will win a World Cup with Messi. I've no doubt about that.
 
7dan said:
So if Argentina dont win a world cup messi cant be considered the best ever???
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He will still be regarded as one of the best ever. But his CV would look inferior to Pele and Maradona, and 50 years from now, people probably wouldn't regard him that highly when they are arguing who is the best ever.
 
I dont think you can make the judgement on whether a player is in the greatest of all time bracket or not based on the fact he does or dosnt win a tournament which lasts for a mere 28 days and is held ONCE every 1400 days!!

Thats ludicrous, there are too many variables, Quality of opposition (spain arguably best international team ever), injuries, depending on team mates performances etc
 
Rather Messi is/becomes the best of all time, I feel absolutely honoured to be around to see him. I do think that he will win a world cup though and have a massive influence in his country doing so. The man is a genius.
 
7dan said:
I dont think you can make the judgement on whether a player is in the greatest of all time bracket or not based on the fact he does or dosnt win a tournament which lasts for a mere 28 days and is held ONCE every 1400 days!!

Thats ludicrous, there are too many variables, Quality of opposition (spain arguably best international team ever), injuries, depending on team mates performances etc
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In every sport the best players/athletes perform at the biggest events. Should we not judge Usain Bolt by his few sprints that last only a few seconds in the Olympics every four years? Or sachin tendulkar at the world cups he's played? Again, I'm not saying the World Cup is the Olympics compared to club football. But other greats of other sports have also had to perform in short periods of high pressure and thrived. It's not something only messi is expected to do, even greats of THIS sport have done it.
 
Snake Plissken said:
Chief with all due respect you talk pish. Their set up against Germany in 2010 was begging Germany to pummel them.
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You love to talk shit. That's what.

1. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/01/argentina-germany-tactical-preview/

I didn't see that website listing Germany as favorites for that game and unlike you they do know what they talk about.

2. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/matches/match_59/default.stm

Match stats:

Possession Argentina 60% Germany 39%
Attempts on target Argentina 11 Germany 9
Attempts of target Argentina 6 Germany 5
Corners Argentina 5 Germany 4

Further proof the Argies simply froze. Germany had it way to easy against them and it wasn't only because of tactics.
 
Gio said:
The last post was in jest but I think you're under-appreciating his performances in 1990. Frankly he was kicked out of Italia '90: that tournament was the most negative and cynical in the history of the competition. Every time Maradona started off on one of his trademark runs, he got hauled down. Every time except once against Brazil, when he somehow evades a cynical take-down on the halfway line from Alemao(?) to slip Caniggia through. And once against Italy, when he ripped through the heart of one of the best international defences of all-time (no goals conceded until that semi-final) leaving Maldini and Baresi for dead to set up a fairly straightforward chance for Olarticoachea to mess up.



So what else did he do? Well he set up half a dozen good chances in the opening day defeat to Cameroon; was similarly productive against USSR and Romania; shackled reasonably well by Yugoslavia (who were a top team then); made the difference against Brazil despite some ugly treatment (think Alemao does a two-footed lunge on him that would today have brought a straight red) and was unstoppable during the final ten minutes. Italy he played well, made good use of the ball; West Germany did a decent job of curtailing him and the attack was blunted with Caniggia's suspension.

Ultimately he didn't hit the heights of '86 but the main point though is every time he got going he was chopped down - right through the tournament. The balance between defender and attacker was seriously skewed in Italia '90 and the punishment for bringing down a creative player was almost non-existent. Despite all of that, he still had a strong tournament and would be an easy choice for me in a team-of-the-tournament midfield alongside Matthaus and Gascoigne.
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Tell him...
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Tell him...
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tell me what? he posted a good play that ended in nothing

this argument started when you said "
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Maradona played through injury during the 1990 world cup. To insinuate that he missed part of the tournanent, or wasn't a big part of the reason they reached another final is strange indeed. Furthermore since 1994 Argentina has consintently headed to a world cup selecting from a pool of players better than they ever had in 1986/90. Yet since Maradona's demise they have consistently failed to live up to their potential to date. Even with Messi in the ranks."
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to wich i said, YOU ARE WRONG

he wasnt a big part of the reason we reached another final, he was injured and didnt perform well

the reason we reached that final was our defense, goycoechea, cannigia, bilardo and an enormous chunk of luck
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
You love to talk shit. That's what.

1. http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/01/argentina-germany-tactical-preview/

I didn't see that website listing Germany as favorites for that game and unlike you they do know what they talk about.

2. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/matches/match_59/default.stm

Match stats:

Possession Argentina 60% Germany 39%
Attempts on target Argentina 11 Germany 9
Attempts of target Argentina 6 Germany 5
Corners Argentina 5 Germany 4

Further proof the Argies simply froze. Germany had it way to easy against them and it wasn't only because of tactics.
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In what way is that proof they froze?

They were beaten 4-0, outclassed from back to front. They had a midfield of Mascherano, Maxi Rodriguez, and Di Maria. Just begging to be pummelled. I know ultimately you want to pin their exit on Messi but don't let that get in the way of what actually happened.

And as Marcos said previously, they had something like South Korea and Nigeria in the group stage, they should be going through against them regardless of the coach.
 
Since his international exploits were being discussed, after last night I think it's safe to say he's really doing the business for Argentina over the past couple of years, particularly since he was made captain.
 
For me this whole "he needs to win a world cup" argument is defunct. Messi is the greatest ever, with scope to absolutely run away with that title if his career continues as is.

The reason why is because the world cup simply isn't the highest level of football anymore, the Champions League is certainly better and harder. The world cup is obscured by being a thing of myth and legend that occurs every four years. If the world cup was yearly, Messi would have won a couple by now.
 
Snake Plissken said:
In what way is that proof they froze?

They were beaten 4-0, outclassed from back to front. They had a midfield of Mascherano, Maxi Rodriguez, and Di Maria. Just begging to be pummelled. I know ultimately you want to pin their exit on Messi but don't let that get in the way of what actually happened.

And as Marcos said previously, they had something like South Korea and Nigeria in the group stage, they should be going through against them regardless of the coach.
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Indeed, these were the ratings for both teams in that 4-0 game:

Romero: 5
Otamendi: 3
Burdisso: 5.5
Demichelis: 4.5
Heinze: 4
Maxi Rodriguez: 6
Mascherano: 6
Di Maria: 5.5
Higuain: 4
Messi: 7
Tevez: 6

Substitutes
Pastore: 5.5
Aguero: 5

GERMANY (4-2-3-1)

Neuer: 6
Lahm: 6.5
Mertesacker:
Friedrich: 8
Boateng: 7.5
Khedira: 8
Schweinsteiger:
Mueller: 8
Oezil: 7
Podolski: 7.5
Klose: 9
Substitutes

Jansen: 8
Kroos: 6
Trochowski: 6.5

To be honest, Argentina were terrible that day and it is no exagerration that if we had beaten Germany, then we would have beaten this Argentina side too. Apart from Tevez, Messi, Aguero, Higuain and Di Maria, the others were really terrible. Yes, everyone has heard of Mascherano, who is clearly out of his depth at the top level and this has been evident when he plays for Barcelona. Heinze, who was really only Ligue 1 level and out of his depth with us too. Compared to the German side, man for man, they were the weaker side. The players in bold are those who play at the Top level and the numbers are the ratings for said player in that particular match.
 
Adzzz said:
The world cup is obscured by being a thing of myth and legend that occurs every four years. If the world cup was yearly, Messi would have won a couple by now.
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That's the friggin point. You don't get a shot at it every single year with a club that is almost guaranteed to make the semis anyway. You get only a few chances in ( usually) a not seamless set up and have to perform in a series of high pressure games without a chance at redemption the very next year.
 
Some nice gifs on the night

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Messi%20assist%20Higuain%20Venezuela%201.gif


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Looked like it may have been offside
Messi%20assist%20Higuain%20Venezuela%202.gif
 
kouroux said:
For me by the end of his career, whether he'd have won a WC or not will not stop Messi from being branded the best ever footballer.
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It's certainly going to come down to the two, Messi and Pele, not matter what. Messi has already blown past Maradona on form, as well as glory. But if Messi maintains this form for 4-5 more years, keeps up the club trophy haul and tosses in a World Cup, even I would have to concede he would surpass Pele.
 
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