Why do you have Pele so far ahead of Maradona?
Lionel Messi
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Why do you have Pele so far ahead of Maradona?
Why? You ask? Because that is the reality whether you like it or not. Your opinion and mine don't count. A look at Di Stefano's career and how is regarded next to Pele or Maradona should teach you that. Besides, those WPoY AWARDs Mean feck all frankly. Especially because he has bagged at least two with out arguably deserving them at all! In addition WPOY awards have never been used as criteria for measuring who is the greatest amongst greats till Messi came along.
WTF?
They had the vast majority of the possession, more shots on goal and off target, more corners and fouls? and you still want to claim it isn't proof they froze? Of course you would! You are the type of dumb ass after all who thinks blaming the coach alone for their exist is valid.....
Anyone following my argument properly knows for a fact I blame the entire Argentine team for their exit. All of them, from Messi, to the keeper let themselves down and it isnt the first time the Argentine national side has done so.
Messi himself agrees:
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2889...or-argentina?source=breakingnews&ICID=HP_BN_1
Only an idiot would lay all the blame for exits at his door, or claim it is team mates and coaches who made him under perform for Argentina.
But trust you to invent an argument for me and treat as if its what I'm really advocating.....
1) You say that your opinion or anybody else's in general doesn't count and then you say that he didn't deserve to win two ballon d'ors.I mean after all the discussions whether he deserved or not, he won 4 of them and no one has ever done.In 20-30 years no one will if he deserved them all or not.
2) It makes sense to use the WPOY award as a measure because Messi has done what no one could ever do.Win 4 and in a row.It's one good way to measure who is the greatest, it's only one obviously.
You are right to point it out. It's mere opinion and doesn't matter......
What matters are facts like the greatest club player to date named
Di stefano is rated below even Maradona because he never played in a world cup. ...Whether we think it unfair or not.
It would make perfect sense if club football wasn't a comfort zone for most greats. At club level teams are tailored around them, to bring out the optimum performance from them week in week out. At international level in comparison their ability to take on responsibility and their individual gifts are tested far more. That is why world cup performances have always been held in such regard and are usually used to separate the greats. You don't have many chances to prove your mettle.
That is why I believe, even if Messi wins the next 5 WPOTY awards, if he doesn't perform to his true level at a world cup, and Copa America, as an individual it can and will be used against him when comparing him to the Cruyff's, Beckenbauer's, Maradona or Pele's of this world. Whether we think its fair or not.
Personally I believe he has started to grow into the role as captain for Argentina and relishing the responsibility. (Ironically about the same Age Maradona took the world by storm in 1986) So Hopefully during the next world cup, we shall witness him at his best for the Argies. For at club level only Di Stefano stands ahead of him IMO. Yet he is young enough and in a side good enough to match what Di Stefeno's Madrid did.
Messi has already eclipsed Cruyff Chief.You talk about Messi being in a comfort zone at Barca but what about Di Stephano with a Real Madrid even more dominant than the current Barca, was he not in some sort of comfort zone too ?
Yes Koroux. That is why Di Stefano gets rated by many below Maradona and Pele. Because he never got to prove himself at world cup level.
That is why for me performing to his best at a world cup is key to any claim Messi is the G.O.AT. I'm not in the 'he must win it' camp because I feel the likes of Spain, Germany and Italy are too big a hurdle to get past for this current Argentine national side. For me I simply want to see his club form in a Puma shirt at the big stage. If he does just that, no one will care if his side stops at the quarters once again. They'll instead just remember his performance as one of the legendary ones in world cup history. For if a world cup witnesses a barca type Messi performance, many won't forget it easily. I'm hoping he does just that in Brazil. For that will probably mean about 8 goals and two or 3 M.O.M awards for him by the time his team is kicked out.
I still believe that Xavi is the heartbeat of that Barca team. He's the reason why they were dominating in europe, he's the leader, the one who makes others look better, the one organising the team on the pitch, controlling the tempo of the game. Iniesta and of course Messi are individual brilliant without a doubt, but I think Messi can prove outside of the world cups as well that he's truely the greatest of all time when Xavi retires. He just needs to do more for Barca than score and assist. All the greats did way more.
In everything apart from individual ability Xavi is still by far the best player in the world and I think we'll rate him even higher a few years after he's gone. Barca and Spain look like a different team without him. So I think Messi has something to prove at club level as well. The way he's growing as a person and the way he's leading the argentine national team now, I have no doubt he will grow into that role and we'll get to see an even better player the next years, maybe not as spectacular but more influential in other areas on the pitch. But he has to do it, just like the other greats did it.
I don't understand that
Don't you think there's more to a player than just ability with the ball? You could call it leadership but I think that's only a part of it. Players can influence the game in several ways including tactical understanding and execution. Xavi is the player who allows Barca&Spain to dominate the midfield, play maybe the best pressing of all time, which is imo one of the main reasons for the trophies in recent years.
Xavi is a great player alright, the most important when it comes to dominating the midfield with passing but if one player was to be highlighted for the pressing part of their game, it's Busquets for me.
Di Stefano ran that team though, he was defensive mid,creative mid and Striker for that team rolled into one...hardly in his comfort zone as he was doing everything for that side.. sort of player who could create a team which revolves around him whereever he went I imagine. Regardless.. Di Stefano's failure to feature internationally ultimately hurt him didn't it cause he isn't mentioned above Pele and Maradona.
As great as Messi is, he doesn't really do that for Barca, nor should he be expected to.. footballs changed alot since those days, rare that you'll see players who are so involved with all the facets of their teams play but with Argentina its a great chance to see what he can do with lesser team mates and construct his own teams style of play. Cruyff for me could do that with any side he went in, heck he even proved he could do it as a manager too.
bottom of the line, i dont agree at all with anything you are saying
maradona never made it in a copa america, in fact argentina played at home with him on the field and uruguay beat us in the semifinals
pele, cruyff and distefano always played in their "confort zone"
when maradona had a team build up to him, he excelled -boca, argentina 1986, napoli-, otherwise -barcelona, argentina 1982, sevilla, newels- he didnt
and none of them were required to prove themselves playing on a tuesday winter night at britannia stadium
and none of them beat record after record after record every freaking year, even
and it's not only that he beats them, he destroys them
Great post! Finally some balance between the usual wa******.
He'll always have those question marks over him if he doesn't do it outside of Barca at the end of the day, so he's not the greatest ever yet.
pele in cosmos
so you come and insult, good
It's quite funny how so many people can hold such strong opinions on a player being the best ever in a sport like football in which statistics aren't as important as others sports. I doubt many here who claim messi to be the best EVER have seen players like pele and di stefano. It's just this rush to want to crown something you've seen with a title you can boast about. Not that it is unusual , I'm sure I've done it in the past. But especially regarding football, it doesn't make much sense IMO.
Someone above said that Di stefano was absolutely the heartbeat of madrid, all over the pitch. See I had no idea that was the case. I thought he must have been another pure attacker like best and co. If he did that for the most successful European club side ever then he must have been something else.
Someone above said that Di stefano was absolutely the heartbeat of madrid, all over the pitch. See I had no idea that was the case. I thought he must have been another pure attacker like best and co. If he did that for the most successful European club side ever then he must have been something else.
Why don't we add Puskas to that too from the mighty Magyars? A great player who is often overlooked because he came from Hungary and not Argentina or Brazil.
its simple, i havent seen pele or distefano
but i saw maradona, a lot
maradona is regarded as one of the three best players in the world along with pele and distefano
i consider messi better than maradona, then messi must be better than pele and distefano
pure logic
Is it fair to say that if no life is found on Mars, Lionel Messi should be touted as the best player of the universe?
No, just our solar system.
Yet you agree with a thing like all the greats played in the same comfort zone at club level, for starters. I get the feeling you are arguing for the sake of it really.....
So? So what if Argentina lost at home with him in the semis? Are you going to tell me next that Maradona was not consistently good for Argentina in international football? Or that he had as bad a tournament as Messi did in the last Copa America, when Uruguay bested them in the semis? For it seems you have this dying need to play down every single thing Maradona did just to big up Messi.
Save for the edition in which Dunga ashamed Basile tactically in the final, Messi has been shit in the Copa America, and till the current manager took over had been poor in an Argie national shirt. Pretending that failure to show up at the big stages of international football repeatedly doesn't hurt any claim Messi has to G.O.A.T status is simply living in denial. So far he has stopped under performing international games. It's now up to him to take that form into a world cup.
Exactly! Every single great in the history of world football has consistently excelled with teams built around them, to get the optimum level from them week in week it. That is why club level is a comfort zone compared to intentional football. That is why performances at world cups have always counted as criteria to separate the greats from each other.
So what? To be considered as good as them he had better do what they all did. Show up in a national shirt at the biggest stages. Other wise he will be Di Stefano part 2.
Not at all. Messi is a fantastic player, on his way to be the best in the world, but he still haven't delivered close to his status in a WC tournament, that's a fact. But hopefully for Argentina he will change this next year.
Regarding comparing him to other great players he's probably the best player ever with the ball close to his feet, but for me and many others that's not enough to be regarded "the best ever" as long as he haven't succeed in a WC tournament. He still lack charisma, you know the aura when you only see one player no matter who's besides them. I cant see that yet. So far he's nowhere near the status of Ali, Maradona, Jordan or Bolt, just to mention a few.
He's also not a natural leader, you know a person who lifts others or take's automatic command just by being themselves. Think Kaizer Frans or Johann Cruyff. This has nothing to do with ability as a player but it affect peoples view of a players greatness. Maradona was a cheater, took drugs and was connected to the mafia but he also was a icon, a true leader, with all his talent and faults. You of anybody should know that. Messi is nowhere near that status.
One female journalist, who have interviewed Messi several times, made a very good comment regarding him and other stars. Messi is the best football player on the planet, a great football star. Ronaldo is second but he's a world superstar, someone who the majority of the girls dream about and someone who the young boys want to look like. I think she understood what it takes to be a true superstar, ability is not the only factor ;-)
If what the RedChief is saying is true then, Cristiano is most definitely a long, long way behind Messi when it comes to the statistics and everything else. I seem to remember Ronaldo having superior international statistics compared to Messi up until Maradona finally left. Look how things have turned around. Perhaps he is second best now, but the gulf between Messi and the second best is continuing to grow and grow.
Another thing, I don't think Messi thinks himself as a "World Superstar." He is just someone who loves doing what he does best. He is not out there to be famous, he doesn't need to have fast cars, Bradman style haircuts or what have you, he lets his footballing ability and his statistics do the talking. We will see if he makes it in 2014, but even if he doesn't he will still be the only player for me, after Maradona to have got me out of my seat because of their unique abilities.
Marcos, why give them the time of day?
Lionel Messi is pure joy, and one of the greatest footballers ever.
Disregard idiots who claim he isn't and bask in the glory.
Lionel Messi is pure joy, and one of the greatest footballers ever.
Disregard idiots who claim he isn't and bask in the glory.
but that's what you did, you came and insulted everyone that dont agree with "xavi is the better player in the world"
genius you
Yet you agree with a thing like all the greats played in the same comfort zone at club level, for starters. I get the feeling you are arguing for the sake of it really.....
So? So what if Argentina lost at home with him in the semis? Are you going to tell me next that Maradona was not consistently good for Argentina in international football? Or that he had as bad a tournament as Messi did in the last Copa America, when Uruguay bested them in the semis? For it seems you have this dying need to play down every single thing Maradona did just to big up Messi.
Save for the edition in which Dunga ashamed Basile tactically in the final, Messi has been shit in the Copa America, and till the current manager took over had been poor in an Argie national shirt. Pretending that failure to show up at the big stages of international football repeatedly doesn't hurt any claim Messi has to G.O.A.T status is simply living in denial. So far he has stopped under performing international games. It's now up to him to take that form into a world cup.
Exactly! Every single great in the history of world football has consistently excelled with teams built around them, to get the optimum level from them week in week it. That is why club level is a comfort zone compared to intentional football. That is why performances at world cups have always counted as criteria to separate the greats from each other.
So what? To be considered as good as them he had better do what they all did. Show up in a national shirt at the biggest stages. Other wise he will be Di Stefano part 2.
meh, you contradict yourself, and you are boring
lets do this, you wait till messi wins the world cup before you consider him GOAT, and i start considering him GOAT right now
Messi stats on club level are superior to all other player in every aspects, nobody disputes the figures. Still some of us from the old generation don't regard him as high as Pelé and Maradona. Not yet. feck! I miss the old days ;-)
I did?
And why's it an insult to highlight Xavi's impact in Barca and Spain?
Btw. Thanks for calling me a genius, that's generous. I shall show this to my wife and grown up kids, they also call me an idiot ;-)
well, to a poster that said that the BPITW is xavi you replied
"Great post! Finally some balance between the usual wa******."
correct me if i'm wrong but with "great post" and "finally some balance" you are agreing that xavi is the BPITW and with "usual wanking" you are saying that the rest of the posters usually talk wank
from that, no matter what the rest of us wankers say, it will still be wank, unless we agree that Xavi is the BPITW
genius you
tell your family that you think that Xavi is the BPITW you will regain your respect
Says the man who claimed he disagreed with all I was saying then agreed with it seconds later. It's your childish way of argument and blatant circular reasoning rather that's the real bore.
WTF
Where have I said that Messi ''needs to win a world cup''? Why some of you bother to post replies to people's posts when you can't even keep up with the actual arguments they are making I never know......My final word in this little mini conversation between you and me. Messi is the BPITW but I think Xavi's impact as a factor for Barcelona's and Spain's success is under valued. Wank**** was a miss leading word, I give you that. I mean fan boys, some of them can unfortunately don't see anything outside the box when we discuss such a subjective topic.
Says the man who claimed he disagreed with all I was saying then agreed with it seconds later. It's your childish way of argument and blatant circular reasoning rather that's the real bore.
WTF
post 13085:
when 7dan asked you this:
you answered this:
and here:
*
*thank you irwin
WTF
...
Says the man who claimed he disagreed with all I was saying then agreed with it seconds later. It's your childish way of argument and blatant circular reasoning rather that's the real bore.
WTF
Did you realise that you are using this same argument as you did in June of last year? Doesn't it get a bit boring for you? People have often questioned me as to why I have a hatred against Cristiano Ronaldo and rightly so. I don't hate him, I dislike him. However, when it comes to you, I don't think you have ever, ever posted something positive about Messi in this thread and to be honest, it is getting boring. Just like it was when I posted about CR7. I no longer post there anymore because there is no point.
Says the man who claimed he disagreed with all I was saying then agreed with it seconds later. It's your childish way of argument and blatant circular reasoning rather that's the real bore.
WTF
contender for the biggest hypocrite on the internet? Yours couldn't be any more childish, you called me a dumb ass
I'm not surprised your 'Just accept my opinion is right, and yours is wrong' type arguments don't go don't well. Especially when you're talking nonsense and labeling pro's fanboys, when some of them have seen far more of the superstars of yesteryear than you ever have
I'm still lost on your part about Argentina freezing too, how does more shots and possession prove that? All it says is they couldn't score and Germany took them apart on the counter. Did they ever have a clear chance to score in that game?
Maradona's a shit coach, what's he done since? He set his team up dreadfully, he played into Germany's hands thinking that if he sent his superstar forward line up that would be enough. The first two goals they conceded were down to dreadful defending from a defender he only selected because he had a dream about winning the world cup and that particular player was part of the dream
Keep talking shit, keep insulting, keep going round in circles. Biggest bore on the forum!
contender for the biggest hypocrite on the internet? Yours couldn't be any more childish, you called me a dumb ass
I'm not surprised your 'Just accept my opinion is right, and yours is wrong' type arguments don't go don't well. Especially when you're talking nonsense and labeling pro's fanboys, when some of them have seen far more of the superstars of yesteryear than you ever have
I'm still lost on your part about Argentina freezing too, how does more shots and possession prove that? All it says is they couldn't score and Germany took them apart on the counter. Did they ever have a clear chance to score in that game?
Maradona's a shit coach, what's he done since? He set his team up dreadfully, he played into Germany's hands thinking that if he sent his superstar forward line up that would be enough. The first two goals they conceded were down to dreadful defending from a defender he only selected because he had a dream about winning the world cup and that particular player was part of the dream
Keep talking shit, keep insulting, keep going round in circles. Biggest bore on the forum!
Indeed he is, and to be honest (sorry marcos), but he is even worse than Steve McLaren or even Mark Hughes. Great footballer, shit manager. When you have world class players like Tevez, Aguero, Messi and the like, you need a manager who can form a world Cup winning team and Maradona just couldn't do it. Messi's statistics ever since Maradona left have left other players for dust.
Yeah Lyon but Chief will be along to tell us that Messi's huge increase in productivity since they got a proper experienced coach in is just a massive coincidence.
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