reasoned opinion? if you think that saying "if messi doesnt win a world cup he can't be considered in the same level with pele and maradona" and then asking "where did i say that messi needs to win a world cup to be considered at the same level of pele and maradona?" is a reasoned opinion then, ok
Lionel Messi
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reasoned opinion? if you think that saying "if messi doesnt win a world cup he can't be considered in the same level with pele and maradona" and then asking "where did i say that messi needs to win a world cup to be considered at the same level of pele and maradona?" is a reasoned opinion then, ok
It is all so easy for you and others on here trying to push this ridiculous idea that ''I'm not sure what I want'' or ''have a bias against Messi'' to pick my past posts in this thread, quoting them devoid of context to suit your agenda.
This thread has been going on since about early 2008. In that period Messi has gone from potentially the best player in the world, to the best, to arguably the greatest ever, whilst Argentina have gone from being one of the clear favorite to win the world cup and any other international tournament they entered, to a team that currently would have done very well to get beyond a quarter final at the next world cup.
In that period I was the one who came up with the following arguments:
i. that world cup performances separate the great from each other
ii. Performing at a world cup is the ultimate test of great a player's position amongst fellow greats
iii. club football is comfort zone for all football greats because teams are built around them, built to get the optimum level out of them on a day to day basis
iv. The personal gifts and qualities of football greats stand out far more in international football than at club level.
v. that any player that comes from a nation that has won the world cup previously, must also win a world cup to be considered greater than a predecessor who did, unless he is in a generation of players from that same nation that are incapable of achieving the fit.
vi. No player can have the fact that they are from a small nation or the fact that they are in a side that can't win a world cup used against them when greatness ranking amongst football greats is being considered.
If it was true that I '' don't understand what I want'' or have some agenda against Messi, I would still be insisting that ''Messi must win a world cup'', even when I already publicly admitted that the current crop of the Argentina national side don''t have a great chance of wining the world cup. Yet I have not.....
You are just so desperate to claim I don't know what I want or that I have some hidden anti Messi agenda because deep down you know what I'm saying is neither unfair nor untrue.
Well said
i dont think you have an agenda against messi
i do think you should get off your high horse and shoot it
i also think you don't know how to use roman numbers
See that's why I think you're logic is crap, because it leads to shit conclusions like this.
When you lie to cover up your feck-ups you know you have a shit opinion. You made that post on 11th June 2012, 20:07. 9 months ago! I didn't know that Argentina were the favorites to win the world cup 9 fecking months ago!If you're going to change your position every time somebody makes a point then there is no point in arguing with you. You said clearly that the world cup games (i.e. those 4 weeks) is all what matters. It doesn't matter how he performs in the preliminaries or other competitions, for you those 4 weeks are all what matters to you, so quit changing your position every 5 minutes.
So back to the topic, people do really think Messi is better than Maradona? He is obviously more consistence, has better finishing and composure, better movement and better temperament. Whereas I think Maradona is more influential, more creative, has better vision and passing, more tricks in bags perhaps? and he also scored better freekicks.
I have said this before that it's almost impossible to compare players from different generations. Doesn't matter how much stats and YouTube clips you present the bottom line is that evolution makes every generation a little bit better and that's why we think the current is the best.
For me it's impossible to compare Messi with Maradona. So much things around them is different. Playing for the best Barcelona team ever, probably the best club team in the world is not the same thing as playing for Napoli in the eighties. Different environments and another era makes any fair comparison pointless. The only place where they had close to the the same conditions are in the WC, but not even this is totally fair.
I can't say that Messi is better then Maradona. He scores more goals and he wins more trophy's on club level but Maradona was so much more. He carried his national team to a WC win against a superior team. He was the natural leader for a nation, his teammates and every one who saw him play under two WC tournaments. It was him and the rest.
How can you value those attributes?
I sit on the fence because first I like football. Argentina and Brazil has always been favorite teams, but I also likes Germany, England and Netherlands to name a few. Favorite players comes and go but I have a very soft heart for Pelé and Maradona, don't ask me why, but this doesn't mean I don't value Messi and this current generation of players the same way.
Give Messi a chance to finish his carrier, then we can discuss who's best. Right now he's a candidate but not undisputed the best ever. I leave it there.
The World Cup argument isn't black and white. It's got a few advantages, namely:
On the other side:
It still remains a good measure for me to compare between generations, especially when the club game has changed so much while the margins between the greatest players are so fine.
- Cachet. It's the top prize in football.
- Exclusivity. It's only once every four years. It's not like JT and Frank chipping away every season for a decade or more trying to earn a CL title.
- Constant. International football isn't distorted by fluctuations in wealth that have concentrated power and resources in just a small handful of clubs. It's therefore a more robust benchmark to compare between generations.
On the other side:
- Small sample. It's only a handful of games and lesser players can get famous on the back of it.
- Quality. Increasing standard at the very top of the club game.
It still remains a good measure for me to compare between generations, especially when the club game has changed so much while the margins between the greatest players are so fine.
So back to the topic, people do really think Messi is better than Maradona? He is obviously more consistence, has better finishing and composure, better movement and better temperament. Whereas I think Maradona is more influential, more creative, has better vision and passing, more tricks in bags perhaps? and he also scored better freekicks.
i think messi is better than maradona, yes
Out of curiosity did you see Maradona live in his hey days?
the first time i saw maradona play was during the youth world cup held in japan in 1979, him, along with ramon diaz tore appart every defense and won that world cup against russia (the game ended 3-1 although the russians started winning)
those games were held at 4 am and i remember me and my twin brother setting the alarm at 3:45 to watch the game and then go to school -we where 15 years old-
this world cup was held one year after the 1978 world cup that argentina won and the coach -for both teams was cesar luis menotti- he was a national hero
in that team, although maradona was the better player, ramon diaz -currently river plates coach- shone too
something happened between them and that's why ramon diaz wasnt called to be part of the 1986 argentinian team that won the world cup
i alsow saw maradona play live many times for argentina, for argentinos juniors -1980- for boca -in 1981 and in 1996- and then i followed his career on tv -barcelona, napoli, sevilla-
he was a brilliant footballer, he had a lot of tricks, his passing was awesome and his intelligence was immense
still, i think that messi is also a brillliant footballer, that he has a lot of tricks -maybe less than maradona- that his passing is awesome -not as great as diego- and his intelligence is as good as maradonas
but what messi has that diego doesnt have is the consistence and the goal scoring
that's why i rate him above him
If you compare their qualities as leaders? How they influence a game or their teams, makes other team mates better?
Can living since a child and playing for a great Barcelona play a part in this? If I remember correctly wasn't Maradonas role in both national team and Napoli a little bit different then Messi's role in current Barca? Correct me If you think differently.
maradona was the better leader, but he started on that role during the 1986 world cup, with a great coach that gave him the lead -bilardo-
i'm seing messi doing the same now, he is only 25 and maradona, during the world cup, was 25-
i think that bilardo's influence in him was paramount, after winning the world cup, he returned to napoli and in 1987 they won the scudetto for the first time
he played for a great side with boca and for a very good barcelona team
and maradonas consistency was never like messis
even with argentina, during the 1986 world cup, he had a great game against korea, a so so game against bulgary, a great game against italy, a so so game against uruguay, then he perform masterfully against england and belgium and had some genius strokes against germany
Anyway back to topic. Did people said in the nineties that if Maradona wants to be considered as the best ever he has to win UCL? The argument that Messi needs to win a world cup to be considered as the best ever doesn't look right to me, considering that the Champions League quality is most likely better than in the World Cup. A World Cup will help his case - most definitely - but if he continues to dominate the football club as he did from 2008-2009 onward then I think that regardless ih he will win (or dominate) a World Cup, he can be considered the greatest. Same for Ronaldo, though to him the question is if he is one of the top 10 best ever players.
I seriously do not see how you think those matches are comparable in any way. Getting past the many differences (friendly, completely different Germany team, those players only played together against 10 men), Gago instead of Maxi completely changes the composition of that team. In the World Cup it was only Mascherano behind Messi - Messi was expected to lay it on for such great runners off the ball as Di María and Maxi (I don't think movement is even the strong point of Tévez's game), as well as make the difference in the final third.
4-0 vs. Ecuador? Mascherano and Gago. 3-0 vs. Uruguay? Mascherano and Gago. Not the same. The setup against Germany in the WC was a joke, like pretty much every setup under Maradona.
I take your comment as quality post because you have seen them both live. I disagree with you regarding who's the best because I value leadership and charisma higher then many others, doesn't mean I think Messi isn't a good leader just that he needs time to step up regarding those qualities.
Let's just agree that both are genius and maybe who's best is a matter of taste, but time works in Messi's favor.
of course is a matter of taste
what is not a matter of taste is asking one player to do things the others didnt
like asking messi to win a world cup when distefano or cruyff didnt or to play out of his confort zone when pele didnt
that didnt stop distefano, pele or cruyff being considered among the best footballers ever, but for some posters that will prevent messi to be considered among them
Glad to see the Messi debate raging on...
Glad to see the Messi debate raging on...
another brilliant post from Cal
Wait until I tell him that Chief thinks that Baggio is better than Ronaldo...
Wait a minute ... There is another psycho gay Argie guy out there ?
not another, he is worse than me
but he lives in spain and is a real madrid fan
his love for franco knows no limits*
*if he ever reads this he will kill me in a very painfull way
is he still in the newbies, marcos?
no, he is here, he reads the forum a lot but doesnt post much
his english is worse than mine, imagine
last year when we lost against bayern and he thought barcelona was heading for another CL cup, he was so mad he started a thread here asking if it wasnt time for fergie to quit
i had to plead the admins not to ban him for being a wum and a cnut*
*i added "cnut"
I think I rememeber that now. Thanks!Give me his address, finally someone with sense! It looks like I have a new friend and we need to meet in order to fight against all Barca and Messi wa****** ;-)
Poor guys still stuck back in 2009 when people used to debate who was a better footballer between Messi and Ronaldo!
The only thing that doesn't go well is you repeated straw men. You repeatedly inventing positions for a person and attacking them with vigor only makes you look stupid. For that is arguing with yourself.
It's obvious to anyone that those stats show they should have done better than lose 4-0. It really isn't hard to understand.
Yes they did. But I'm sure you think its Maradona's s fault too that they couldn't make such chances count.
A fact no one disputed...
Maradona? I don't care.
I'm leaving that to jokers like you. The type of idiot who thinks only the departure of Maradona is the reason Messi has been doing better in a national shirt.
That right Chief? you've done a great job of making yourself look like a tit by saying 'Messi has to win a world cup' and then saying 'Where did I say Messi has to win a world cup?'
You're talking through the hole in your arse as per usual. They never had clear cut chances against Germany, you made a silly idiotic statement and now you're inventing situations that never occurred in an attempt to make them seem legitimate.
it's a huge bore. I'll ignore you and listen to people who actually know about the game guys like Gary Neville, who are in your eyes just blinded fanboys
Happy wanking over Pele and Maradona, and Guivarch and Luca Toni and Torres etc etc
Lets just see how next years tournament goes down... he doesn't need to win it, but he has to play well in my opinion. Those who devalue the World Cup have no sense of history, no sense of how much different it is to play in a tournament in which you can play every year, half of which are in your own stadium and with team mates you're accustomed to... to having to play in strange environments in an incredibly tense atmosphere (entire nation's fate is on your shoulders) and in a situation where it is so cut throat and very little chance of redemption.
Guys like Messi and Ronaldo, they find the Champions League easy now in terms of pressure, yes sometimes they can get locked off.. but I bet in terms of nerves etc, they'd be way less nervous in say an El Clasico CL final than say if Portugal played Argentina in the World Cup final... El Clasico would probably have the higher standard of football on display, but the pressure both players would face in the World Cup final.. would surpass that of the european cup match, as they know its possibly a once in a lifetime moment.
Take the Dutch team from 1970's.. they were accustomed to winning in the European Club Context.. they found it easy, then when it came to 1974.. the pressure of the WC final did take its toll, it dawned upon them once they were 1-0 up, shit we're on the verge of making history here. If you've read the book Brilliant Oranje, it describes how the legendary dutch players did get abit frightened.
The fear of playing for your club can't compare to that of playing for your nation, regardless of the quality aspect.. individually, the latter is a greater test in my opinion but obviously there will be fluke results, i.e. guys who've had shite club careers, suddenly pulling a rabbit out the hat and having a stormer of an international tournament. On the whole however its a great barometer of judging who is the real deal... see WC 2006 Zidane, he just shat over the Brazil and Spanish sides, truly demonstrating he was a class above the likes of Kaka etc as he could handle the intense pressure that goes with international tournaments, he rose to the occasion - so what if he didn't win La Liga a record breaking number of times, in the games and tournaments which define greatness came about.. he delivered more often than not.
Every great player (who has had the chance to) in the past has pretty much had at least one international tournament in which they excelled, Messi will deliver, he has to... no one's expecting him to win it, that is unfair, but he needs an individually brilliant campaign to prove that even in situations he is not comfortable in, he can deliver. The guy is clearly in a different league to what he was like in 2010, there is a greater sense of authority in his play these days. Guys who've not even bothered to research the players of the past in terms of video footage, shouldn't even bother coming in, as they're adding no value to the discussion.
Guys like Messi and Ronaldo, they find the Champions League easy now in terms of pressure, yes sometimes they can get locked off.. but I bet in terms of nerves etc, they'd be way less nervous in say an El Clasico CL final than say if Portugal played Argentina in the World Cup final... El Clasico would probably have the higher standard of football on display, but the pressure both players would face in the World Cup final.. would surpass that of the european cup match, as they know its possibly a once in a lifetime moment.
Take the Dutch team from 1970's.. they were accustomed to winning in the European Club Context.. they found it easy, then when it came to 1974.. the pressure of the WC final did take its toll, it dawned upon them once they were 1-0 up, shit we're on the verge of making history here. If you've read the book Brilliant Oranje, it describes how the legendary dutch players did get abit frightened.
The fear of playing for your club can't compare to that of playing for your nation, regardless of the quality aspect.. individually, the latter is a greater test in my opinion but obviously there will be fluke results, i.e. guys who've had shite club careers, suddenly pulling a rabbit out the hat and having a stormer of an international tournament. On the whole however its a great barometer of judging who is the real deal... see WC 2006 Zidane, he just shat over the Brazil and Spanish sides, truly demonstrating he was a class above the likes of Kaka etc as he could handle the intense pressure that goes with international tournaments, he rose to the occasion - so what if he didn't win La Liga a record breaking number of times, in the games and tournaments which define greatness came about.. he delivered more often than not.
Every great player (who has had the chance to) in the past has pretty much had at least one international tournament in which they excelled, Messi will deliver, he has to... no one's expecting him to win it, that is unfair, but he needs an individually brilliant campaign to prove that even in situations he is not comfortable in, he can deliver. The guy is clearly in a different league to what he was like in 2010, there is a greater sense of authority in his play these days. Guys who've not even bothered to research the players of the past in terms of video footage, shouldn't even bother coming in, as they're adding no value to the discussion.
Poor guys still stuck back in 2009 when people used to debate who was a better footballer between Messi and Ronaldo!
That right Chief? you've done a great job of making yourself look like a tit by saying 'Messi has to win a world cup' and then saying 'Where did I say Messi has to win a world cup?'
You're talking through the hole in your arse as per usual. They never had clear cut chances against Germany, you made a silly idiotic statement and now you're inventing situations that never occurred in an attempt to make them seem legitimate.
There is only so much multi quoting one can make before losing himself a little
Right, it is a ''shit conclusion'' to rate Robert Baggio higher than Cristiano Ronaldo when looking at their careers thus far
What ''feck ups'' and ''lies' are these?
are these things below lies?
1. This thread has been going on since about early 2008. It's now 2013
2. In that period Messi has gone from potentially the best player in the world (early 2008), to the best (2009), to arguably the greatest ever (2009-2013).
3. Argentina (2008- 2010 )were rated amongst potential winner for the world cup 2010
4. Argentina (2011-2013) including their most recent Copa America debacle are no long rated as potential world cup winners
And do you have evidence of me insisting that I made the post on a different date to the one you have provided? You who is insisting I'm the liar?
Did I or anyone else say they where favorites to win the world cup 9 months ago? Once again you are just plain inventing things.
How has my position repeatedly changed? When other posters have even accused me of being ''boring'' for having the same line of argument for over a year?
And that hasn't changed at all. Those 4 weeks are the biggest stage of all, which are reached via long hard road. It's obvious that my attempt to explain to you why world cup events are significant, much more than just teams gathering for a 4 week cup, and should never be undervalued has confused you into thinking my stance has changed.
Meanwhile you should read my words carefully when I say I don't give a fig what you think.
excellent, because you wont like what i'm thinking now
BBC says you are wrong
''They did improve as half-time approached and Angel Di Maria and Gonzalo Higuain both forced Manuel Neuer into low saves, but Germany continued to threaten on the break.''
''For a good 20 minutes, Maradona's men dominated possession and Carlos Tevez had a shot blocked superbly blocked by Per Mertesacker while Germany keeper Neuer was kept busy as shots peppered his goal.''
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/matches/match_59/default.stm
You clearly have experience with wanking over footballers. I certainly don't share in your perversion.Happy wanking over Pele and Maradona, and Guivarch and Luca Toni and Torres etc etc
And its further proof of your utter stupidity that you think you've scored some sort of point by bringing up Guivarch, Torres & Luca Toni
It's simply because I don't really care.
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