so, messi
does he or doesnt he need to win a world cup
i mean, you seem to have a very logic opinion in that matter
btw, repeat after me:
I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X
come back tomorrow, i'll teach you from eleven to twenty
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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so, messi
does he or doesnt he need to win a world cup
i mean, you seem to have a very logic opinion in that matter
btw, repeat after me:
I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X
come back tomorrow, i'll teach you from eleven to twenty
You'll get the message soon enough...i see ... no multiquoting?
for someone that doesnt give a fig for what i think, you've been very responsive
maybe you should reconsider that post
and in the process, the ones were you say that messi does/dont need to win a world cup
My apologies if the point has already been posted here. Messi is only two goals short of tying Maradona's career goals scored for the Argies. It's pretty safe to say Messi will blow away that record (it's probably not the all time Argie record) very soon, if not in the next few games whenever they are played. It's not had to even imagine Messi doubling Maradona's total career goal haul for his national team.
I realize what a sensitive subject Maradona is to the English, in light of how things went down in 1986. I get it. (The defending in the so-called greatest goal of the century was horrid for those 15 seconds and the second goal was pure cheating.) But any sensible conclusion in this debate has to be Messi > Maradona. If not now, then very soon. If not very soon, then we have an ostriche head in the sand problem.
I realize what a sensitive subject Maradona is to the English, in light of how things went down in 1986. I get it. (The defending in the so-called greatest goal of the century was horrid for those 15 seconds and the second goal was pure cheating.) But any sensible conclusion in this debate has to be Messi > Maradona. If not now, then very soon. If not very soon, then we have an ostriche head in the sand problem.
BBC says you are wrong
''They did improve as half-time approached and Angel Di Maria and Gonzalo Higuain both forced Manuel Neuer into low saves, but Germany continued to threaten on the break.''
''For a good 20 minutes, Maradona's men dominated possession and Carlos Tevez had a shot blocked superbly blocked by Per Mertesacker while Germany keeper Neuer was kept busy as shots peppered his goal.''
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/matches/match_59/default.stm
You clearly have experience with wanking over footballers. I certainly don't share in your perversion.
And its further proof of your utter stupidity that you think you've scored some sort of point by bringing up Guivarch, Torres & Luca Toni
Bwahahaha. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself. So you had to refer to the BBC match report, so is that an admission that you couldn't even remember the game?
Secondly, it says the keeper made a couple of saves and Tevez had a blocked shot. How were those clear cut chances?
If you think that's somehow proof that they froze you really are a fantasist.
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
i. Saying that Baggio is better than Cristiano Ronaldo is a shit conclusion. And it actually proves that your whole theory is shit.
ii. Are you acting dumb deliberately? You said "When did I say Messi has to win the world cup, it was only when Argentina were the favorites". Well in 2012 you said Argentina weren't the favorites, but you still said in 2012 that Messi has to win the world cup... Are you wumming by any chance?
iii. Don't talk about the importance of the preliminaries if they mean nothing to you in term of player valuation.
iv. Are you seriously not bored of this yet?! Wonder what you would have done if you were somebody with an agenda..
v. @ quoting the BBC.
i. Saying that Baggio is better than Cristiano Ronaldo is a shit conclusion. And it actually proves that your whole theory is shit.
ii. Are you acting dumb deliberately? You said "When did I say Messi has to win the world cup, it was only when Argentina were the favorites". Well in 2012 you said Argentina weren't the favorites, but you still said in 2012 that Messi has to win the world cup... Are you wumming by any chance?
iii. Don't talk about the importance of the preliminaries if they mean nothing to you in term of player valuation.
iv. Are you seriously not bored of this yet?! Wonder what you would have done if you were somebody with an agenda..
v.
@ quoting the BBC. It's for your benefit dim wit!. I'm not the one insisting the Argies had no clear cut chances. So a keeper making a save isn't a clear chance? How does that work exactly?
Shit conclusion my arse. Baggio played in 3 world cups, with a starring role in one of them, to add to his stellar club career. As things stand now Baggio is above Ronaldo in the greatness takes.
Only a fecking idiot would expect a person who has insisted that performances at world cups are paramount in separating football greats from each other to now say Cristiano Ronaldo is greater than Roberto Baggio.
I want you to present the exact quote and post number in which I allegedly posted that exact sentence.
I have every right to talk about them when I'm explaining the real significance of a world cup finals event to a buffoon who thinks world cups don't count for much. Kapeesh?
I think you're wrong here. If we discuss the greatest of all time, let's say the top 5, they have to do it on every stage they took part in at some point in their career. Further down the list that criteria doesn't make sense. If someone has clearly a better club career it has to count for something. Messi wasn't more successful or influential in his club's trophy haul than Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer or di Stefano (arguably Maradona as well if we look at what he achieved with Napoli, though that's another discussion). So we have to bring in another dimension to compare them. It's about ability on the ball, leadership, influence on tactics, success for club and country. It can never be only about the worldcup.
And while I don't entertain these arguments about the GOAT, the World Cup that occurs every 4 years and is sporadically played with a constantly changing squad & coaches as a criteria has to be the least impressive of barometers to gauge a player. The WC has been romanticized beyond logic to annoint one or discredit another.
SAF talked about Leo back at the 2011 Ballon D'Or re: generational players, like Messi, that could've played in any era and any team - they were exceptional talents. There's a confluence of factors that have to come together just right to win whether it's Internationally or on club level which is why it's been difficult for anyone to win on a consistent basis - although most would agree it's harder to get all those factors just right for a NT.
But to rubbish or downplay Leo's play Internationally is to merely go by stats or results of his NT rather than how the player actually played. You see the strongest national sides atm (Spain, Germany, Italy) and they have a cohesion that belies their success, those two points are not mutually exclusive - it takes more than great players or play to win and Argentina has lacked that cohesion. It certainly can't be put on Leo let alone work as a critique against his play, Messi always plays the same and this has been the case since he was 5 years old. Although as others have already pointed out, I feel pretty certain he will win with the NT eventually as well.
SAF talked about Leo back at the 2011 Ballon D'Or re: generational players, like Messi, that could've played in any era and any team - they were exceptional talents. There's a confluence of factors that have to come together just right to win whether it's Internationally or on club level which is why it's been difficult for anyone to win on a consistent basis - although most would agree it's harder to get all those factors just right for a NT.
But to rubbish or downplay Leo's play Internationally is to merely go by stats or results of his NT rather than how the player actually played. You see the strongest national sides atm (Spain, Germany, Italy) and they have a cohesion that belies their success, those two points are not mutually exclusive - it takes more than great players or play to win and Argentina has lacked that cohesion. It certainly can't be put on Leo let alone work as a critique against his play, Messi always plays the same and this has been the case since he was 5 years old. Although as others have already pointed out, I feel pretty certain he will win with the NT eventually as well.
Well, all you said leads to the the point that it's way more difficult to play at your best at the world cup. Why should the most difficult task be the least important? That's just wrong and it sounds like a cheap excuse and like I said before it disrespects what other greats achieved.
I expect Messi to become a smarter player, to have more tactical influence on the teams he plays in. Probably 30 year old Messi wouldn't have looked as clueless in that Maradona coached 2010 team against Germany. If Messi plays a Maradona 86 like tournament next year and Argentina win the world cup, will you call it luck? No, of course not. It would be a testiment that he probably is the greatest of all time. It's just stupid to play down things he could achieve in the future that would set him apart from all the other greats of the game, just to call him the greatest of all time at age 25.
I expect Messi to become a smarter player, to have more tactical influence on the teams he plays in. Probably 30 year old Messi wouldn't have looked as clueless in that Maradona coached 2010 team against Germany. If Messi plays a Maradona 86 like tournament next year and Argentina win the world cup, will you call it luck? No, of course not. It would be a testiment that he probably is the greatest of all time. It's just stupid to play down things he could achieve in the future that would set him apart from all the other greats of the game, just to call him the greatest of all time at age 25.
It's the glass is half full/empty perspective really
Leo being any smarter isn't going to impact influence if you're playing with a ragtag group of poorly coached players. There are XI players in a side, 1 player won't lift a crap side to win much for any consistent period of time let alone a trophy. Argentina has not had a formidable team to compliment a player like Messi, not even a balanced one nevermind cohesive...yet
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Leo being any smarter isn't going to impact influence if you're playing with a ragtag group of poorly coached players. There are XI players in a side, 1 player won't lift a crap side to win much for any consistent period of time let alone a trophy. Argentina has not had a formidable team to compliment a player like Messi, not even a balanced one nevermind cohesive...yet
Latest
It's beyond ridiculous how people see that Argentina side. It's a quality team, probably top5 in the world with 4 outstanding attacking players. I just had a quick look at some sports betting sides and Argentina seems to be second favorite to win in 2014 behind Brazil and ahead of Spain and Germany. Of course that doesn't truely reflect the quality of the teams. But you make it sound like he has to play for Wales.
He will always have it held against him, whatever the future holds for him. If he wins the World Cup, then he is not as good as Pele because...etc etc. He has won the World Cup, but he has never taken a team like Napoli and make them champions like Maradona did...etc etc. Whichever way he turns, there will always be an obstacle put up just to make sure that the Pele and Maradona will be held in high regard compared to Messi.
It is great to have a good attacking line up, but they do not play like Barcelona. Their defence is absolutely terrible, and not in the same class as a Spanish, German, Brazilian or even Italian defence. Their goalkeeper is definitely not up there with Hart, Casillas, Buffon, Cesar or Nauer. If they are vulnerable to a counter-attack and against a decent setup, their defence will be ripped to shreds.
Yes, he's such a victim. Such a huge agenda against him. Noone likes him.
All I can say is, you haven't watched or watched enough of them to be able to speculate. Even the current Brasil is more cohesive as a team and they've done nada for awhile now. Currently, this is the best Argentina have looked for awhile but question marks about that defense and their midfield which have persisted for several years now
Sarcasm aside, that's not the problem. The cynicism that exists and reluctance to give him proper credit have gone on for years. I do enjoy the way he takes it in stride, whether they're complimenting or criticizing him for what he hasn't done yet. The beauty is, every argument that's been used against him, he's eventually shattered those myths. I expect that to continue because that's who he is
That's sort of the point isn't it, even now you're expecting everything to be set up for Messi to allow him to play his game - the idea of him trying to lift an unbalanced team to unforseen heights is completely out of the question. Do you really think every World Cup winning team was a cohesive unit? All the criticism that Brazil received in the build-up to the 2002 World Cup as they struggled to qualify doesn't suggest to you there was a number of flaws in that side? Can't you see that they're one of many World Cup winners to have average players throughout the team?
Its like Eastenders in this thread with Danny & Marcos VS Chief, however reading through it, you guys don't contrast on a hell of a lot, it's like your trying to argue over the smallest most insignificant points when you agree on the majority, that Messi is a truely great player.
How does he measure up against Maradonna? You'll never know is the ONLY truth, you can speculate but look at it from a logical POV, there are too many variables such as how the game was played, medical knowledge, fixture scheduling, diets everything... It's like comparing the dinosaurs and Batman....
Obviously I know Batman would win right...
How does he measure up against Maradonna? You'll never know is the ONLY truth, you can speculate but look at it from a logical POV, there are too many variables such as how the game was played, medical knowledge, fixture scheduling, diets everything... It's like comparing the dinosaurs and Batman....
Obviously I know Batman would win right...
Wtf. are you talking about. They are comfortable on top of the qualification group, beat several great teams including Brazil and Germany over the last year in friendlies. Every team has major problems besides Spain. Germany isn't a cohesive unit as well, they are a young team with lots of problems and flaws and made several tactcal and individual errors that cost them in important games, are vulnerable to counter attacks and are criticised for their mentality.
It sounds like all the other teams are build like club sides, just poor little Messi has to play in a nationalteam where you can't buy a world class player for every position. Yes, Argentina isn't the best team in the world, but they still are a great team and will have a huge advantage against any european team because the world cup is in south america.
Honestly, how much more credit can people possibly give him? Everyone in the world except Cal? thinks Messi is the best in the world by a mile, has been for 4-5 years and is up there with the all time greats already. To be the undisputed greatest, for most people he will have to make something happen on the international stage.
I can not understand why people almost seem to take offence on either side of this argument. Weird.
Yeah I don't get it. Any criticism or suggestion that Messi isn't the best player ever and people are up in arms but call Messi the best and people are up in arms. There is a middle ground here somewhere..
That's a pile of shit addernoire. If Messi has an excellent tournament taking Argentina as far as he can in Brasil 2014 with only the relative shitness of his teammates letting him down, a lot of people's opinions will change on him. Think about it. Playing at Barce where everything is set up for him is monumentally different to the national side even if both teams are looking to try and get the best out of him. No one is telling to him to go to a division 2 side and bring them up from the depths of relegation, only for him to have a good a tournament as he possibly can. Producing with the pressure of your nation on your shoulders outside your comfort zone is true greatness..until Messi produces in those circumstances, he doesn't deserve to be mentioned alongside Pele and Maradona. Di Stefano MK 2 maybe, as someone here put it.
so, in a thread started to discuss about messi, there are people discussing about messi!!!!!!!
how did that happen??????????
now seriusly, what people are arguing is valid, for some, he is already the greatest of all time, for others, he needs to win a world cup, for others he still needs to prove some other things, in a few words, tipical football discussion
how did that happen??????????
now seriusly, what people are arguing is valid, for some, he is already the greatest of all time, for others, he needs to win a world cup, for others he still needs to prove some other things, in a few words, tipical football discussion
The thing is it's football greats we are talking about. So its a given they all have stellar club careers. The thing is to find that one stage at which the playing field was largely level through out every generation for the greats. The one thing in which their gifts a properly tested in an environment not geared for their optimal success. I don't believe there is anything better than international football and especially the world cup to determine that. Club football for me just doesn't cut it.
I mean look at Baggio's club career 488 games, 221 goals, 117 assists. Was a player in 3 of Italy's giant clubs, at a time Serie A was still considered arguably the strongest league around. He is a European and world footballer of the year (1993). FIFA World Cup Silver Ball winner: (1994), 2 time Serie A winner etc. People are acting like I'm comparing Emile Heksey to Ronaldo rather than a genuine football great who excelled at all levels of football.
I don't expect anything more than a credible team, a team that befits the talent pool & history of Argentina - nothing more, nothing less. The rest, Leo would provide, I am certain of that. Instead, it's been like a soap opera more so than even how Brasil has looked of late. Brasil in 2002 benefited from it all coming together over a short period of time, had it not they wouldn't have won. Brasil didn't stay on top for long, did they? Argentina has been dysfunctional - I still contend that as well as they are playing, it still doesn't reflect how strong a footballing nation & talent pool it has. They remain, for me, underperforming. How much of that is down to coaching, the AFA or players failing to 'get it' is unclear to me.
What is clear is that Leo isn't or hasn't been the problem
Dude stop calling him Leo! it's nauseating
Chief, you're a fantasist. You can hit a speculative effort and the keeper will have to save it, you are a grade A moron when it comes to these debates. Best ignored. You only dug that report out because you couldn't remember what happened.
On another note, this stuff about lifting an average team to great heights? Maradona wouldn't have done that in the modern game so I think we can scrub that off now. At the same time people are saying this Argentina side is great, ironically some of the same people would have you believe the 86 Argentine side was like Wales + Maradona.
Their defence in their current team is crap, no question about it. The manager has set them up quite well to cover for that, but I think a really good side would probably pick that lock eventually.
Chief, you're a fantasist. You can hit a speculative effort and the keeper will have to save it, you are a grade A moron when it comes to these debates. Best ignored. You only dug that report out because you couldn't remember what happened.
On another note, this stuff about lifting an average team to great heights? Maradona wouldn't have done that in the modern game so I think we can scrub that off now. At the same time people are saying this Argentina side is great, ironically some of the same people would have you believe the 86 Argentine side was like Wales + Maradona.
Their defence in their current team is crap, no question about it. The manager has set them up quite well to cover for that, but I think a really good side would probably pick that lock eventually.
Only goes to show that sitting atop a qualification table doesn't mean you're as formidable as you'd imagine. I still say they are underperforming and have yet to hit their potential which may be a good thing as they are at least playing consistently and might hit their stride in a year's time
You want to use friendlies as a basis for an argument about form?
Germany, at least has consistency that Argentina has lacked, they pull together and have no shortage of options all over the pitch. Not the same for Argentina, you're comparing apples to oranges. The FAs in Germany & Spain put those in Argentina & Brasil to shame despite having similar if not better talent pools.
No, just sounds like you've seen more of the stats and less of the matches. Where exactly did I say Argentina wasn't a great team? They're not Spain but then again who is? Cohesion in a squad isn't just about talent.
Geographical advantage has helped teams in the past, certainly, but far cry from suggesting Spain or Germany will suffer there anymore than Holland or Spain did in South Africa. Argentina will benefit most if they sort their team out
I'm talking more about the arguments levied against the player in terms of International success. That somehow because he's had great success on club level that it should translate to similar for Argentina, nevermind the wealth of differences between those two setups.
The need for him to have International success, which translates to a trophy, is fairly arbitrary, IMHO, for his stature in the game. Arbitrary in terms of how success Internationally depends on far more than just Messi. Argentina stinks, well it's because Leo couldn't duplicate his Barcelona form. It's a lousy argument
Dude stop calling him Leo! it's nauseating
How about Messiah?
Everyone knows him as Leo, particularly teammates
Everyone knows Rooney as Wazza too but us fans aren't really on a first-name basis with the players these days. I guess Barcelona still have that special bond
I agree with Brwny
You wouldn't blink at a caftard referring to Welbeck as 'Danny' in a debate. Why is FCBarca calling Messi 'Leo' any different?
What I've always wondered is why the name Lionel is shortened to 'Leo' not 'Lio'.
What I've always wondered is why the name Lionel is shortened to 'Leo' not 'Lio'.
I disagree with this.
In general I like when someone multi quote and try's to debate point by point. Cheif is a master of this and more posters should learn from him instead of just post simplistic drivel or a wall of words. If I dislike some of Chiefs opinions I just ignore his post and move on, some of you should do the same instead of complain of his debate technique whenever his opinions just doesn't suit your own agenda or view. (Sorry Snake, the last part was in general not only for you)
Trying to take points by using master suppression techniques is cheap, feminists and poor politicians do that.
I hope Messi succeed in the next WC, then we can go back to post stats and other interesting things :-)
Only in your fantasies.
And it would be mentioned in the game report using words like ''routine save by the keeper'' and the like. It wasn't. Confirming that once again you demonstrate you don't know what you are talking about.
The only ''grade A moron'' around is the person who thought wanking over Pele and Maradona was a thing worth mentioning. Such a reprobate doesn't even have the slightest clue what actual debate is about.
Only in your fantasies. In the real world I got that report because you were insisting Argentina didn't have any clear cut chances. Despite ample evidence to the contrary.
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