Thanks Danny!! There are many more facts and figures that I can extract from the spreadsheet. It would be interesting to find out how many "official matches", he has played in i.e. La Liga, Champions League, Copa Del Rey and International matches that are not classed as "friendlies."
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
- Start date
- Status
Thanks Danny!! There are many more facts and figures that I can extract from the spreadsheet. It would be interesting to find out how many "official matches", he has played in i.e. La Liga, Champions League, Copa Del Rey and International matches that are not classed as "friendlies."
I'm watching some videos now.. Saw only two so far (Argentina matches), something drew my attention...
Minute 4:53
And Minute 0:50
If only the defenders show him some toughness these days..
Also look at Messi's goal in the first clip. A lot of players would have chosen to go down after that challenge (minute 7:14), not him.
It has something to do with his low centre of gravity which makes him harder to shove off the ball. He might look 9 stone dripping wet, but he looks strong as an ox. When I watch old clips of George Best, they are very similar in that they are capable of being tackled and staying on their feet. Also, just one other stat, and if we include all his games from Barcelona C when he just 17, that means he has played a total of 41,386 minutes and in that time, he scored 404 goals at 102 minutes per goal with 191 assists so, 404 goals with 191 assists to a goal means 595 or a goal or assist to a goal every 69 minutes.
Those numbers are incredible. A goal every 108 minutes that includes his first seasons as a senior player is a superb achievement.
Frankly, a few years back, I thought no one would ever reach the records of past decades, due to the progressively lower scoring nature of the game. Messi not only is surpassing those records, he also has so much more to his game than just being a striker.
What an outstanding player.
Frankly, a few years back, I thought no one would ever reach the records of past decades, due to the progressively lower scoring nature of the game. Messi not only is surpassing those records, he also has so much more to his game than just being a striker.
What an outstanding player.
His consistency is simply (heh, simply) at a much higher level than what is normal. Loads of footballers are consistent like that. He's just better than pretty much all of them so the calendar year measurement, at least in his case, is really a moot point.
I also never like mixing club form with international form. He's on his way to possibly break Müller's record, who's probably the best minutes per goal goalscorer at that high of a level ever, but Müller played for Germany. Even if you don't want to take into account that he played for quite a dominant side then you must acknowledge that Messi to pretty much always fly long way to add on that next cap.
I'm more impressed with his stats last season than whatever stat he'll finish with this year.
This calendar year for Club and Country
Falcao 42 goals 6 assists in 47 games
C.Ronaldo 59 goals 10 assists in 62 games
Messi 76 goals 22 assists in 59 games
I think Brazillian Ronaldo in his 1997/1998 form, playing for Barca/Madrid today can probably match Messi for goals, but not for creativity I don't think.
This calendar year, Messi has played 5,661 minutes all games counted. He has scored a total of 87 goals and assisted in another 33 goals too. The stats include the All-stars, the match against PSG etc, as Pele had included his friendly game statistics too. So, with those stats in mind, he has a goal or an assist for a goal every 47 minutes.
Aye. 85 goals in 60 games - not even Messi has been as productive as that.
I don't think anyone can argue with that, but we also need to take into account their minutes per goal to find out who is the most productive. Since we don't have the current statistics for Muller, we cannot make a decent analysis, which is a shame.
True, although Messi by and large plays 90 minutes save the very occasional appearance off the bench, so I'd imagine it wouldn't make much difference.
That again is true. Though, if he carries on at the rate he is, it won't be long before he is scoring more than a goal a game plus assist. Unfortunately, if has many meanings. Anyway, I am out for the night, so have a good one Gio.
Indeed,*
1972/73 Müller: 49 apps, 66 goals, ~7 assists** -- 1.35 gpg / 0.14 apg
2011/12 Messi: 60 apps, 73 goals, 29 assists -- 1.22 gpg / 0.48 apg
However,
1972/73 Bundesliga: 3.37 gpg
2011/12 La Liga: 2.76 gpg
1972/73 European Cup: 2.81 gpg (3.05 gpg in 1st & 2nd round / 2.00 gpg from QF onwards)
2011/12 Champs. Lge.: 2.76 gpg (2.65 gpg in group stage / 3.14 gpg in knockout stage)
1972/73 DFB-Pokal: 4.16 gpg (!)
2011/12 Copa del Rey: 2.96 gpg
1972/73 DFL-Ligapokal: 7.75 gpg (!!!)
2011/12 no equivalent competition
*I'm using their season totals because calendar totals would make this too hard
**I've only managed to find Bundesliga assist stats, so it's likely he'll have a few more from domestic and European cup games, but unlikely to be over 10-12.
Totally different styles of player though. Muller was the ultimate poacher.
holy shit Muller must have been an absolute machine.
Good analysis. I think you should also include the average goals scored per game for Barcelona and Bayern which was 3 and 2.74 respectively in their league matches to reflect domestic superiority.
To clarify, those gpg rates I added behind each competition, are the COMPETITION GPG, not Müller and Messi's in those competitions
It should illustrate that although Müller has the better gpg (1.35) it was also a bit easier on average to score in his day, for example the average Bundesliga game of the 1972/73 season yielded 3.37 goals, whereas for 2011/12 La Liga this has shrunk to 2.76 goals, hence making it a little easier for Müller compared to Messi.
Considering these factors, and also their own team's gpg, it's a lot closer, and probably even in Messi's favor.
66 goals in 49 games incredible though, his record for Germany is quite incredible too.
To clarify, those gpg rates I added behind each competition, are the COMPETITION GPG, not Müller and Messi's in those competitions
It should illustrate that although Müller has the better gpg (1.35) it was also a bit easier on average to score in his day, for example the average Bundesliga game of the 1972/73 season yielded 3.37 goals, whereas for 2011/12 La Liga this has shrunk to 2.76 goals, hence making it a little easier for Müller compared to Messi.
Considering these factors, and also their own team's gpg, it's a lot closer, and probably even in Messi's favor.
You sure it was easier? Barcelona did score 114 goals last season in the league. On average it might have been but perhaps not in relevance to their respected teams.
Well, it's a complex question to answer. But overall I believe it was somewhat easier for Müller; yes, due to several factors:
1. Müller was an out-and-out striker, a poacher mainly (but not strictly) <=> Messi is a false nine, who varies between dropping deep as an extra midfielder or making runs into the box as a poacher
2. the 1972/73 Bundesliga gpg average (3.37) is 0.61 higher than its 2011/12 La Liga equivalent (2.76); not to mention other competitions where the differences are even bigger
3. Barcelona did score 0.26 more goals per game than Bayern did; however this is also impacted by the aforementioned league gpg averages, which would indicate that Barcelona should theoretically have scored even more goals in a league with 0.61 more goals per game on average
4. both players play in a perfectly suited environment that they had been accustomed to for at least 7-8 years; both teams have many contemporary greats, but Müller had a genuine all-time great in Beckenbauer (often seen as TOP10, sometimes TOP5) with whom he would often engage in 1-2s. Messi has Xavi (maybe at most TOP25 all-time?) and Iniesta (surely outside the TOP50).
5. stylistically, I don't think there's that much of an advantage to either player: Barcelona dominate possession and thus have many more opportunities, although this past season they have been repeatedly frustrated by very defensive tactics (parked busses) <=> Bayern's games were far more open, with more space for attacking players to operate in.
Overall, Müller is still a better striker and finisher than Messi IMO, but that just makes it even more incredible that the latter can come close to him in pure goalscoring output!
We in the US saw a fair amount of German football in the early and mid 70s, a lot of it featuring Bayern of course. Muller really was a goal scoring machine, more or less in the same mold as Ruud van Nistelrooy. His goals weren't as "creative" as Messi's, but he was a lethal finisher and outmuscled his defenders anywhere near the six yard box. He was a joy to watch. Beckenbauer too (strange that we don't see more defenders who've tried to emulate Der Kaiser, but that's another thread for another day).
Messi's goals, however, are sensational beyond anything we've seen since Pele.
Messi's goals, however, are sensational beyond anything we've seen since Pele.
Why would Iniesta be outside the top 50 of all time?
I don't really want to derail this thread with all-time greats discussions, but I'd like to say that this isn't supposed to be a slight on Iniesta but just to illustrate how highly Beckenbauer is rated in football history, and that I don't necessarilly agree with those rankings, but they are just what I've gathered as being the general consensus on a football history forum with some very knowledgeable posters that I frequent. The problem with ranking active players is that you tend to overestimate them; but then again many older fans won't see past the nostalgia of their youths...
Of course he will probably climb much higher or be perceived as a TOP20 player within the next few years, but I think it's fair to say that he isn't there yet at the moment. I don't even know where I would put him myself, but the 25-50 range seems about right. It will really depend on a lot of details.
Regarding Iniesta's place in an all-time ranking... in short:
of the 3 categories to rate a footballer; 1. performances, 2. statistics and 3. achievements; he scores very high on the 3rd, very low on the 2nd and it's incredibly hard to tell with him on the 1st (varying between very high and just high). It all hinges on that.
His Barcelona performances are at times overrated for me, especially considering that his 2 big individual honours were mainly for his performances with the national team (Ballon D'Or 2nd place in 2010, totally unjustified IMO & Best player in Europe 1st place in 2012, justified IMO)
Wtf!
Yeah, this one is usually glossed over.
"The Ligapokal was played as a unique event in 1972 because the Olympics in Munich had caused a postponement of the regular season kick-off."
32 teams (incl. from lower leagues) scored 426 goals in 55 matches (avg. of 7.75 goals per game)
Müller scored 12 goals in 5 games. Without this freakish outlier of a competition Müller's season record would look: 45 apps, 54 goals -- 1.20 gpg instead of 1.35
The 2nd edition took place in 1997, heavily reformatted (only 6 teams anymore), and it ran for 10 years before it was abolished in 2007.
so messi has to compete with a player that scored twelve goals in a championship that had almost 8 gpg
and still, he may surpass it
so messi has to compete with a player that scored twelve goals in a championship that had almost 8 gpg
and still, he may surpass it
Only by playing more games... Muller played 60 games that year, Messi already played 59 this year, so unless you think he's going to get 10 tonight...
Anyway, why the sudden obsession with club AND country stats?
so messi has to compete with a player that scored twelve goals in a championship that had almost 8 gpg
and still, he may surpass it
Well, the season record he had already surpassed last season; for some reason more people seem interested in this calendar year record...
Messi currently holds the WORLD RECORD of most goals in a season in competitive club games;
73 goals - Lionel MESSI (2011/12, FC Barcelona)
70 goals - Archie STARK (1924/25, Bethlehem Steel)
66 goals - Gerd MÜLLER (1972/73, FC Bayern)
66 goals - PELÉ (1958, Santos)
66 goals - Ferenc DEÁK (1945/46, Szentlorinc)
65 goals - ZICO (1979, Flamengo)
65 goals - Gyula ZSENGELLÉR (1938/39, Újpest)
65 goals - ROMÁRIO (2000, Vasco da Gama)
63 goals - Dixie DEAN (1927/28, Everton)
62 goals - Jimmy MCGRORY (1927/28, Celtic)
60 goals - Cristiano RONALDO (2011/12, Real Madrid)
He also holds the record for most club+NT goals in a season, with 82 goals
Now there's this calendar year one, where Müller scored 85 for club+NT in 1972; Messi is currently on 76 goals in 2012.
Because they are included in the records from the other players. Duh.
Another couple of stats that my be interesting for you Skorenzy. Up until the moment Messi played his last game for Argentina under Maradona, his statistics from his very first game are; 26,385 minutes played and he scored an incredible 217 goals and has 99 assists. This will give him a record of a goal every 121 minutes. Add his assists for each goal he has scored would give him a goal or directly assisted a goal every 83 minutes.
Now, post-Maradona, he has played 14,248 minutes of football and he has scored an incredible 187 goals and assisted in another 92 goals. Firstly, this would give him a record of a goal every 77 minutes and he has either scored a goal or directly assisted in another 92 goals which would give him a goal or direct assist every 51 minutes.
Because there aren't many records left for him to break..
By the way, I thought your guy was Ronaldo, not Muller.
Here is the complete list for this year:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jq5veh
There might just be another one to add later.
I was thinking more along the lines of "a record for breaking the highest number of records in one season", record...
cal situation is desperate
I'd say it's terminal.
You sure that's not out of Hollywood. Both player and team name sound made up, trying to be cool. And they succeeded.
Should include my 63 goals in the East London Youth League 1971.
Indeed, he must be hurt pretty bad when Ronaldo has the best season in his career in terms of productivity and ends up some 15 or 20 goals behind Messi.
But remember, if he beats Muller's record it'll be ONLY because he played more games. Play ANY player instead of Messi 65-70 times a year and he'll score 80-85 goals in a year too!! Ronaldo would score A THOUSAND if he played this much. It has nothing to do with Messi's ability, anyone could do that.
Here are all the statistics for Lionel Messi's seasons from the very first match with Barcelona 'C', until present day. Goals scored and assists include those of international friendly matches, charity matches etc. Since these have been included for Pele and Muller, it is only right that they should be included for Lionel Messi or others who are prolific like him.
* This is the average number of minutes per goal divided by the number of seasons played.
** This is the average number of minutes per goal divided by the number of seasons played.
*** This is the average number of minutes for both goals scored and direct assists to a goal divided by the number of seasons played.
Here are the stats for Gerd Muller for his career which include all benefit matches, internationals, international friendlies. The numbers in blue are the number of games he played over a season. Suffice to say, he is a long way from beating the number of games over a season, which is held by Pele with 104 games in one season.
* Thanks to rsssf for the statistics.
Code:
[B]|[U]Season |Games |Goals |Assists|Mins played|MPG |MPA |MPG+A[/U]|[/B]
|[U]2003/04 | 45 | 43 | 7? | 3,018 |70 | 431 | 60 [/U]|
|[U]2004/05 | 50 | 21 | 3? | 3,287 |156 |1,095 | 136 [/U]|
|[U]2005/06 | 40 | 12 | 13 | 2,096 |174 | 161 | 84 [/U]|
|[U]2006/07 | 50 | 22 | 11 | 3,682 |167 | 334 | 111 [/U]|
|[U]2007/08 | 54 | 21 | 22 | 3,963 |188 | 180 | 92 [/U]|
|[U]2008/09 | 69 | 48 | 23 | 5,441 |113 | 236 | 76 [/U]|
|[U]2009/10 | 69 | 50 | 19 | 5,618 |112 | 295 | 81 [/U]|
|[U]2010/11 | 72 | 64 | 36 | 5,651 |88 | 156 | 56 [/U]|
|[U]2011/12 | 75 | 93 | 49 | 6,399 |69 | 130 | 45 [/U]|
|[U]2012/13 | 26 | 30 | 7 | 2,198 |73 | 314 | 59 [/U]|
|[U][B]Total | 550 | 404 | 190 | 41,353 |121*|333** | 80***[/B][/U]|* This is the average number of minutes per goal divided by the number of seasons played.
** This is the average number of minutes per goal divided by the number of seasons played.
*** This is the average number of minutes for both goals scored and direct assists to a goal divided by the number of seasons played.
Code:
Season Official Friendly/Benefit Overall Accumulated
1962-63 5 6 5 6 5 6
1963-64 29 47 2 7 [COLOR="Blue"]31[/COLOR] 54 36 60
1964-65 37 43 10 12 [COLOR="Blue"] 47[/COLOR] 55 83 115
1965-66 39 15 31 42 [COLOR="Blue"]70[/COLOR] 57 153 172
1966-67 49 48 27 56 [COLOR="Blue"]76[/COLOR] 104 229 276
1967-68 48 33 29 60 [COLOR="Blue"]77[/COLOR] 93 306 369
1968-69 42 46 36 47 [COLOR="Blue"]78[/COLOR] 93 384 462
1969-70 49 53 24 59 [COLOR="Blue"]73[/COLOR] 112 457 574
1970-71 56 50 28 36 [COLOR="Blue"]84[/COLOR] 86 541 660
1971-72 57 64 35 73 [COLOR="Blue"]92[/COLOR] 137 633 797
1972-73 54 73 31 31 [COLOR="Blue"]85[/COLOR] 104 718 901
1973-74 64 54 30 45 [COLOR="Blue"]94[/COLOR] 99 812 1000 [1]
1974-75 43 30 24 36 [COLOR="Blue"]67[/COLOR] 66 879 1066
1975-76 35 35 18 46 [COLOR="Blue"]53[/COLOR] 81 932 1147
1976-77 37 48 35 98 [COLOR="Blue"]72[/COLOR] 146 1004 [2] 1293
1977-78 48 37 24 30 [COLOR="Blue"]72[/COLOR] 67 1076 1360
1978-79 21 13 19 38 [COLOR="Blue"]40[/COLOR] 51 1116 1411
1979 27 19 1 0 [COLOR="Blue"]28[/COLOR] 19 1144 1430
1980 36 16 6 4 [COLOR="Blue"]42[/COLOR] 20 1186 1450
1981 17 5 12 6 [COLOR="Blue"]29[/COLOR] 11 1215 1461
1983 1 [3] 0 1216 1461
Total 793 735 423 726 1216 1461Here are the stats for Gerd Muller for his career which include all benefit matches, internationals, international friendlies. The numbers in blue are the number of games he played over a season. Suffice to say, he is a long way from beating the number of games over a season, which is held by Pele with 104 games in one season.
* Thanks to rsssf for the statistics.
- Status