I do try to balance out the over-optimistic tone I see here in this thread (or other threads) sometimes by offering the other possible scenario, which may make me look like a pessimist..
Lionel Messi
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I do try to balance out the over-optimistic tone I see here in this thread (or other threads) sometimes by offering the other possible scenario, which may make me look like a pessimist..
I'm not entirely sure he won't play if he needs one of the cup games to surpass the record. He might want it and they would probably let him.
There might also be the case that he doesn't care about it, he's won far more important stuff and surpassed far more significant records, namely the top scorer in a season. In that case he won't play. Who knows?
There might also be the case that he doesn't care about it, he's won far more important stuff and surpassed far more significant records, namely the top scorer in a season. In that case he won't play. Who knows?
I know you're only being logical. I'm not gonna call the race for the title over although I will say I'll be very surprised if Barcelona don't win it this year. It's just that a pattern has begun to form for you regarding the potential Messi record and the title.
Ronaldo might be on a dry spell but Messi isn't. He's scored 6 in the last 3. If they draw a half decent team in the cup he'll definitely play one match so I reckon he's got at least 6 games to get 4 goals. The opposition is irrelevant. Any team can be hard to break down on a bad day but none of the teams that they're facing are famous for being that a la Celtic in Europe. If Barca score goals Messi will have his cut. That's definite. And if he goes on an extremely rare 1 goal in 6 dry spell he'll still have a game left to fix that.
He's perfectly aware of the record. He knows people expect him to beat it. He cares. He loves to win and he hates to lose. Him not breaking the record now would be seen as a loss. That's why its not going to happen. Of course he wants to break that record. No one that competes for a living wouldn't want that. He's going to break it and not only is he going to break it, he's going to better it by a couple of goals at least I reckon.
I agree with your sentiment but even the bookmakers rate Barca at around 85%+ to win the league this year.
Still not the best player ever for many.
I can understand people being reluctant in not calling the best ever because they really have a point.It's impossible to say with 100% certainty he's THE best but he surely is one of them.Top 3 best ever for me
I reckon not only is he going to break it, but he's going to set another record next year. Seems to be going that way. It's the fact that he can score such a ludicrous amount of goals while still constantly looking to set his team-mates up that makes it just absurd. He skips past one defender and the keeper but even at 4-0 up, making the right decision and getting your team another goal is more important than trying to get one step close to breaking Muller's records. I do find it hard to imagine seeing a better player in our lifetime.
60/40? It'd suggest that the race is pretty close and it isn't.
Müller had less games than Messi. HTH.
Probably not, although there's not much value in comparing a 44-game year with a 65-game campaign.
The competitions (and by extension, era) Müller played in had a higher goals-per-game average, so in the end it will probably even itself out.
60 games, 85 goals for G. Müller, 1972 (club and country)
63 games, 82 goals for Messi, 2012 (club and country), currently
Could also point out that Messi has the edge on assists.
QED
44?? He played 60 games total that year.
Assists is a different matter - Müller was a totally different type of player than Messi.
He achieved 85 goals in 60 games, whereas Messi might need 64 or 65 matches.
He achieved 85 goals in 60 games, whereas Messi might need 64 or 65 matches.
What point are you making? That Muller was the better goalscorer? I think most people will agree with that anyway.
Why? It's much easier for a player to score more goals in 1972. Teams are dedicating now three or four defenders at least to watch Messi every game, and he's still scoring more goals than Muller scored. If Muller played in 2012 he has next to 0 chance of even getting near his record.
Besides, Messi played in higher level competitions than Muller. It's like saying Suarez is as good as Messi because he scored 34 goals in 31 games in the Dutch league! Clearly non-sense.
I can't even believe that Messi, despite all that, still managed to get near Muller's record, and may be even break it! It's like somebody breaking Chamberlain's record and scoring 100 points in an NBA game now!
Okay fair enough, but my main point was still this:
The competitions (and by extension, era) Müller played in had a higher goals-per-game average, so in the end it will probably even itself out.
And as Brwned said, I think most people would agree that Müller was a better striker than Messi.
As a pure goalscorer Muller was incredible. Messi has all these other qualities that enables him to create chances for himself but Muller would a lot of the time be limited to feeding off scraps as is his game and yet he still scored an absurd amount of goals. His reactions, anticipation and "smell" for goal is unmatched and will be for a long, long time in my opinion. I don't want to talk about the difference in quality between nowadays and then and how that's a benefit to the players of the past because I completely and utterly disagree and any discussion would be completely pointless. Put Muller in this Barca side and he'd score bucketloads, even more than he did back then. And yes he would be able to fit into this Barca side because he was an incredibly intelligent player and very underrated technically. It's not possible to score so many goals without that intelligence and without that understated but wonderfully effective technique of his (passing, dribbling and above all a fantastic touch). That's my opinion and I don't think I'm in the minority personally.
That notion has been proven wrong over and over again.. Many of the best strikers have played for Barcelona and failed miserably to get anywhere near Messi's scoring record.
I've seen many people say this. My response is: Grow up and get your own opinion. People who feel the need to look around to see what everybody is thinking, lack enough courage to have an opinion by themselves IMO. I bet here if you had an opinion that the "majority" disagrees with you will either change your opinion or avoid mentioning your opinion to avoid the backlash from the "majority" of the members. I don't give a rat a$$ about what the majority thinks when it comes to MY opinions. Minority majority my a$$..
Muller was a special player, not just a top player. Agree to disagree. And no, I don't think that my opinion being the majority opinion in any way validates it, I was (re-)making that point as much for Jaap (and the relevance is obvious) as for you. Good for you that you're somehow strong enough to cope with being in the minority though. Huge props to you. I'm not sure I could deal with that kind of pressure and opposition.
It will be an unbelievable record nonetheless and I was merely making the point that it took Müller less games to reach 85 goals in a calendar year. Then again, as Danny pointed out, it will even itself out.
Is Muller a better scorer than Pele?
And constantly having the need to check what the majority thinks answers your question in the end.
You're such a rebel dude.
No of course you are right, as long as the topic is heavily opinion related it's perfectly fine to have whatever opinion you want.
I mean a part of that makes football so fun is, that almost everything can happen and of course people will have differing opinions on what the outcome might be.
Naturally there will be some who say "he's got it in the bag" and some who say "it's only over when the fat lady sings, so hold your horses", it's just like will always have people who will say "omg the title race is over" in November if a team has more than a 5 point lead.
We were actually arguing about a different topic, but yeah, I do think some people are treating the debates here like it's some kind of parliamentary elections..
Yes I think so, for the same reasons I think he's a better scorer than Messi. He can match their output despite being nowhere near as multi-faceted - that makes his goalscoring skill that bit more impressive.
Yes you're right, I have huge admiration for you. Jealous even.
If you look at it from another angle, all what Muller did on the pitch was to try and score, while Messi also helps his team control the midfield, set up his teammates, and I'm sure he contributes more to the defense than Muller did as well, yet he STILL finds the time to score as many goals as a dedicated striker like Muller.. How does that work against Messi's goalscoring ability?
I know what you mean but the crux of it for me is Messi gets more chances than Muller, even with all of his other responsibilities, because he creates more for himself and plays in a team that creates more for him.
Manchester United have scored around 86 goals for this year so far, can Messi beat that too...
Just a shame he didn't beat Battigols record for the most goals in a calendar year for his national team. He equalled it with 12, but he didn't beat it. Another thing marcos, what is it like to have a Frenchy playing for Argentina...
Not liking the new 'Respect' tag that seems to accompany every poster like that these days. Stats speak for themselves. Minor annoyance but still annoying.
It's a nice wallpaper
Barcelona scored 190 goals in 2011/12. Bayern scored 112 in 1971/72.
I'm not sure what evidence to suggest that 2010s La Liga is better than 1970s Bundesliga, given both leagues produced the greatest club and national teams of their era (Barcelona/Spain and Bayern Munich/West Germany). And Muller's big-game record is unparalleled.
Quite likely provided he avoids injury.
Right enough, no idea where I got 44 from.
According to a German website, Muller played 427, scored 365 goals and provided 87 assists in 15 seasons. Since these are official matches from the Bundesliga, this gives him a goal per game ratio of 0.85 and add his assists, which will bring his contribution either through a goal or through an assist to a goal equals 1.05 goals+assist per game.
This is Lionel Messi's 9th season in La Liga, and so far, he has played 226 official games in La Liga. He has scored 186 goals, which gives him a goal per game ratio of 0.82 goals per game. Add his number of assists, which equals 90 so far, gives him an overall total of 1.22 goals+assist per game.
I am sure the great man will not be too disappointed should his record go, since it is going to a great player. I am sure he would be the first to congratulate Messi should it happen of course, unlike Pele.
This is Lionel Messi's 9th season in La Liga, and so far, he has played 226 official games in La Liga. He has scored 186 goals, which gives him a goal per game ratio of 0.82 goals per game. Add his number of assists, which equals 90 so far, gives him an overall total of 1.22 goals+assist per game.
I am sure the great man will not be too disappointed should his record go, since it is going to a great player. I am sure he would be the first to congratulate Messi should it happen of course, unlike Pele.
I refer you to a table I created Gio, especially the part in red which shows that Gerd Muller played a great deal more than 60+ games in one season.
Code:
Season Official Friendly/Benefit Overall Accumulated
1962-63 5 6 5 6 5 6
1963-64 29 47 2 7 [COLOR="Blue"]31[/COLOR] 54 36 60
1964-65 37 43 10 12 [COLOR="Blue"] 47[/COLOR] 55 83 115
1965-66 39 15 31 42 [COLOR="Blue"]70[/COLOR] 57 153 172
1966-67 49 48 27 56 [COLOR="Blue"]76[/COLOR] 104 229 276
1967-68 48 33 29 60 [COLOR="Blue"]77[/COLOR] 93 306 369
1968-69 42 46 36 47 [COLOR="Blue"]78[/COLOR] 93 384 462
1969-70 49 53 24 59 [COLOR="Blue"]73[/COLOR] 112 457 574
1970-71 56 50 28 36 [COLOR="Blue"]84[/COLOR] 86 541 660
[COLOR="Red"]1971-72 57 64 35 73 [COLOR="Blue"]92[/COLOR] 137 633 797[/COLOR]
1972-73 54 73 31 31 [COLOR="Blue"]85[/COLOR] 104 718 901
1973-74 64 54 30 45 [COLOR="Blue"]94[/COLOR] 99 812 1000 [1]
1974-75 43 30 24 36 [COLOR="Blue"]67[/COLOR] 66 879 1066
1975-76 35 35 18 46 [COLOR="Blue"]53[/COLOR] 81 932 1147
1976-77 37 48 35 98 [COLOR="Blue"]72[/COLOR] 146 1004 [2] 1293
1977-78 48 37 24 30 [COLOR="Blue"]72[/COLOR] 67 1076 1360
1978-79 21 13 19 38 [COLOR="Blue"]40[/COLOR] 51 1116 1411
1979 27 19 1 0 [COLOR="Blue"]28[/COLOR] 19 1144 1430
1980 36 16 6 4 [COLOR="Blue"]42[/COLOR] 20 1186 1450
1981 17 5 12 6 [COLOR="Blue"]29[/COLOR] 11 1215 1461
1983 1 [3] 0 1216 1461
Total 793 735 423 726 1216 1461A German link to show the season where Bayern racked up over 100+ goals:
http://sport-dienst.fussball.de/1-bundesliga/1972/
Muller wasn't a great player, he was like a souped-up Defoe or an Inzaghi.
Muller was good at one thing and one thing only and that was scoring goals in which ever way possible.
Of course he is not in the same league as Messi but I doubt that's the matter of discussion here.
Uli Hoeness considered him up there with Beckenbauer and Cruyff for his mastery of a skill to a degree that had never been seen before in the game. How many times did he score that exact goal that he scored in his last appearance for Germany v Holland in the final? I completely disagree with Pete on this one. Can't help but be in awe of Muller myself, no matter how limited his game was. He was no more limited than RvN anyway.
RvN was a limited player too, great at what he did, you need to look at a total forward like Pele or Henry.
Indeed, I mentioned RvN purely because of your perception of him as little more than a poacher when United fans all know he deserves plenty of credit for a lot more than that. He brought others into play really well with his hold-up play (not much worse than RvP's) and he had a great touch. Comparisons to Inzaghi are well off in my view. So the ones who think RvN was a lot more than a poacher won't fall into the trap of believing Muller's an Inzaghi type as well.
That said, RvN distanced himself from any Muller comparisons and actually looked down on him as a poacher, whereas he thought strikers should offer far more to the game.
That said, RvN distanced himself from any Muller comparisons and actually looked down on him as a poacher, whereas he thought strikers should offer far more to the game.
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