Lionel Messi

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crappycraperson said:
Fergie maintained that for some time even after Ron left. Del Bosque is very much a La Liga man and Messi's performances there will always cloud his judgement. Messi was above average at best in last WC, any attempt to push that above is very tedious and shows that his fanbois has some chip on their shoulder5 when they shouldn't. If he does not produce his best for Argies, then he does not, you can't do anything about that.
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:lol: You definitely didn't watch Messi at WC 2010. Either that, or you're equating the whole team of 11 being knocked out in the quarters and not winning the competition to one man having not performed well at the whole tournament. All his performances I'm sure are on youtube, go watch them - no current player would dream of playing at the level he did.

As for him not producing his best for Argies, there is no other player that produces the level of performance for their country that Messi does for Argentina. Granted, Argentina haven't won their last two knock-out competitions and so Messi has nothing substantive to brag about at international, but judging his individual performances on team achievement is a bit retarded to be fair.
 
Oh no, he had a disappointing WC, that's not up for debate. Argentina is always disappointed when they don't win the WC. But that is different from saying he performed poorly as an individual at the WC.
 
It wasnt even that, it was a powerpuff defence and Maradona attempting to take on the Germans with a gung ho approach that might have worked in the 80's!

There wasnt really a midfield against Germany and thus there was no link in the side between middle and front.
 
Trionz said:
Messi performed very well in WC i remember.
Just the team being shite at finishing.
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He did perform very well at the WC. This also has been debated to death at Caf for like hundred times.
 
I need to buy another TV, mine must be broken since I saw Messi playing like an average player, matter of fact I remember people talking before the WC abiout who's going to be the best player, CR, Messi or Torres and they all sucked :lol:
 
Well, here are his performances. No player right now can dream of playing this well individually, not just at the WC, but also at club level.

EDIT - Notice how many of Argentina's goals were down to his unique ability.









 
He directly assisted 4 of the 10 goals Argentina scored in the tournament while creating shitloads of other chances with his dribbling and passing, as del Bosque rightfully noted. Comparing his performances to Torres' who was not able to control a simple pass and had to be dropped from the starting lineup is kinda ... odd.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It wasn't Maradona's fault that the entire 11 inclduing Messi froze againt the Germans. It's standard practice at the world cup for Argentine sides that. Since 1998.
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Of course it was Maradona's fault. He played 3 central forwards and 2 wingers against Germany. Here's your reminder.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeermany.jpg


Di Maria and Maxi Rodriguez in central midfield. While Cambiasso in the form of his life on the back of a treble winning season was left at home. Nevermind that joke of a back 4. They didn't freeze for fun. They were set up retardedly. Not only the personnel and tactically but also mentally. Maradona saying that he never heard of "Thomas Müller" and asking if he was a ball boy. Christ on a bike.

As much as 2006 was Pekerman's fault. Taking off Riquelme. Leaving Messi on the bench and bringing on ... Julio Cruz.
 
Homeomorphic said:
Of course it was Maradona's fault. He played 3 central forwards and 2 wingers against Germany. Here's your reminder.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeermany.jpg


Di Maria and Maxi Rodriguez in central midfield. While Cambiasso in the form of his life on the back of a treble winning season was left at home. Nevermind that joke of a back 4. They didn't freeze for fun. They were set up retardedly. Not only the personnel and tactically but also mentally. Maradona saying that he never heard of "Thomas Müller" and asking if he was a ball boy. Christ on a bike.

As much as 2006 was Pekerman's fault. Taking off Riquelme. Leaving Messi on the bench and bringing on ... Julio Cruz.
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Everything he said.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
It wasn't Maradona's fault that the entire 11 inclduing Messi froze againt the Germans. It's standard practice at the world cup for Argentine sides that. Since 1998.
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Do you understand football?

Look at the way they set up against the Germans. It was entirely his fault, they never had a chance with Maradona's approach.
 
I think it's a copout to put all the failures of the team to Maradona. Yes he's a spastic, but still, you can't say the players did all they could within the system, Messi included.

Then again I can't watch the videos, since I'm at work. I'll look at them when I can.
 
EB100 said:
:lol: You definitely didn't watch Messi at WC 2010. Either that, or you're equating the whole team of 11 being knocked out in the quarters and not winning the competition to one man having not performed well at the whole tournament. All his performances I'm sure are on youtube, go watch them - no current player would dream of playing at the level he did.

As for him not producing his best for Argies, there is no other player that produces the level of performance for their country that Messi does for Argentina. Granted, Argentina haven't won their last two knock-out competitions and so Messi has nothing substantive to brag about at international, but judging his individual performances on team achievement is a bit retarded to be fair.
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Yeah, anyone who does not think that Messi should have won golden ball in the WC did not watch it. Good one.

Messi's performances in 2010 were good enough for someone like Young, they were average for Messi. If you think otherwise, then it is you perhaps who underrates him.

And yes, for someone who just scored 70 goals in a season, scoring just one goal in an international tournament is very poor return.
 
Homeomorphic said:
Of course it was Maradona's fault. He played 3 central forwards and 2 wingers against Germany. Here's your reminder.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeermany.jpg


Di Maria and Maxi Rodriguez in central midfield. While Cambiasso in the form of his life on the back of a treble winning season was left at home. Nevermind that joke of a back 4. They didn't freeze for fun. They were set up retardedly. Not only the personnel and tactically but also mentally. Maradona saying that he never heard of "Thomas Müller" and asking if he was a ball boy. Christ on a bike.

As much as 2006 was Pekerman's fault. Taking off Riquelme. Leaving Messi on the bench and bringing on ... Julio Cruz.
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This.

I remember Messi being very good.Not as good as he has been on top for Barca but still was awesome.

Football is a team game, Argentina fecked it up as a whole.
 
I know that. He still had enough chances to score 4-5 goals which he blew. Dribbling past players comes as naturally to Messi as passing does to Xavi or Scholes, doing just that does not translates to good performances. He was not poor in 2006 WC far from it, but saying he had a good WC is an insult to his actual ability and talent. But his fanbois are more concerned about trying to make sure his average performances are not called as such. Odd.
 
crappycraperson said:
Yeah, anyone who does not think that Messi should have won golden ball in the WC did not watch it. Good one.

Messi's performances in 2010 were good enough for someone like Young, they were average for Messi. If you think otherwise, then it is you perhaps who underrates him.

And yes, for someone who just scored 70 goals in a season, scoring just one goal in an international tournament is very poor return.
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so you watched him play and it was like watching Young on form :lol::lol:
 
Homeomorphic said:
Of course it was Maradona's fault. He played 3 central forwards and 2 wingers against Germany. Here's your reminder.
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You keep making this into a big thing, but seem completely oblivious to the fact Maradona played in a similarly unbalanced Argentina team, it wasn't just golden boy Messi that had his World Cup sabotaged.


Code: 
                      Ardiles 
                                   Barbas
              Calderon           Kempes                                  
                      Maradona       Diaz

This is roughly how the front 6 set up in one of their games in '82 which didn't even have an out-and-out defensive midfielder like Mascherano, and Calderon was every bit as much of a 'winger' as Maxi Rodriguez was. They generally played Maradona, Kempes and one of Diaz/Valdano, so playing with three forwards isn't that absurd. Once or twice they went in the complete opposite direction, and Maradona was stuck right up top as the sole forward with Calderon and Bertoni the supporting attackers. So, yeah, Maradona like every other player had to play in roles that he wasn't ideally suited to just like everyone else did.

Worth pointing out simply because with the way people talk about how Messi was used in that World Cup and how Argentina set up, it's possible that some might get the impression it was this great injustice that other players he's compared to never had to endure.
 
crappycraperson said:
I know that. He still had enough chances to score 4-5 goals which he blew. Dribbling past players comes as naturally to Messi as passing does to Xavi or Scholes, doing just that does not translates to good performances. He was not poor in 2006 WC far from it, but saying he had a good WC is an insult to his actual ability and talent. But his fanbois are more concerned about trying to make sure his average performances are not called as such. Odd.
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So Messi's incisive dribbling doesn't matter in evaluating his performances anymore because we know he's good at it? By your own logic, that's like saying about Scholes after he's played a blinder of a match spraying passes around that his passing doesn't count and he actually played poorly. Now that's odd.

If we're talking about whether or not Messi played average by his standards, that's another discussion. I thought the point you were making is that he didn't play that well by his fellow professionals' standards, and that's not the case. Which is it?
 
Brwned said:
You keep making this into a big thing, but seem completely oblivious to the fact Maradona played in a similarly unbalanced Argentina team, it wasn't just golden boy Messi that had his World Cup sabotaged.


Code: 
                      Ardiles 
                                   Barbas
              Calderon           Kempes                                  
                      Maradona       Diaz

This is roughly how the front 6 set up in one of their games in '82 which didn't even have an out-and-out defensive midfielder like Mascherano, and Calderon was every bit as much of a 'winger' as Maxi Rodriguez was. They generally played Maradona, Kempes and one of Diaz/Valdano, so playing with three forwards isn't that absurd. Once or twice they went in the complete opposite direction, and Maradona was stuck right up top as the sole forward with Calderon and Bertoni the supporting attackers. So, yeah, Maradona like every other player had to play in roles that he wasn't ideally suited to just like everyone else did.

Worth pointing out simply because with the way people talk about how Messi was used in that World Cup and how Argentina set up, it's possible that some might get the impression it was this great injustice that other players he's compared to never had to endure.
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Odd. Why did you drag Maradona into this now? Where have I claimed that Messi was the only player ever who played in an unbalanced team or compared him to Maradona?

Let's forget for a second that this is how the 1982 World Cup campaign ended for Maradona anyway:



But furthermore the 1982 Argentina team consisted of 1978 World Cup winners Fillol, Passarella, Olguin, Galvan, Tarantini, Ardiles, Gallego, Kempes and Bertoni, no? First: disorganised teams don't win World Cups. Second: how is this even compareable to Messi playing alongside Burdisso, Demichelis, Heinze, Otamendi and Maxi Rodriguez and Di Maria out of position?!

The issue was not Messi himself playing out of position. He played in a trequartista kind of role behind 2 strikers as a creator which suited him very well. After all, he did directly create 40 % of all goals Argentina scored in 2010. The problem was his supporting cast. Passarella is a legend. Demichelis is one of the worst defenders of our time. Maradona "failed" among 9 World Cup winners. Messi "failed" among 2 world class strikers infront of him plus Mascherano plus Di Maria out of position and 6 other at best mediocre to below par players behind him who additionally were not only shit individually but also disorganised beyond belief.

Conceding a simple freekick goal in the 2th minute of the game and then having to chase the whole game for 88 minutes against the best counterattacking side in the world. Totally Messi's fault.
 
Homeomorphic said:
Odd. Why did you drag Maradona into this now? Where have I claimed that Messi was the only player ever who played in an unbalanced team or compared him to Maradona?
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I didn't say you claimed anything of the sort.

Brwned said:
Worth pointing out simply because with the way people talk about how Messi was used in that World Cup and how Argentina set up, it's possible that some might get the impression it was this great injustice that other players he's compared to never had to endure.
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I was just saying it's not just Messi who didn't get to play in the ideal setup with the ideal group of players. Maradona played in a disorganised team too, that doesn't stop people criticising him for his performances in that World Cup - in other words it's not just Messi who gets excessive criticism in such cases, the reason they're criticised is because they're being talked about at such a high level. That's all. Not contesting any of your points, just reminding people of that.
 
Perhaps. The more appropriate and simple point would've been that final one - Maradona in '82 was good individually just like Messi was good individually in '10, and they were arguably the best players in the team throughout, but they took the brunt of the blame regardless because they are/were the big name in the side, and that side didn't go as far as expected. They take the brunt of the blame in spite of the other problems because superhuman things are expected of them, and people do believe they're capable of rising above it all and dragging that team further than it ever should've gone.

It's not just Messi who had to bear that burden, but the way the Messi-apologists go on about how the team was poorly organised you'd think it was some sort of tragedy that Messi was desperately unlucky to be a part of, when most great players have had to overcome the same kind of adversities throughout their career. It's all just a bit over-dramatic. The team was poorly set up, Messi couldn't lift his team to the latter stages in spite of that, it happens.

Maybe that's still tangential to the current topic but it's relevant to the overall one.
 
Yeah but you're using hindsight to contrast and compare without the benefit of foresight to see what Messi & Argentina will do in future. If Messi wins the WC with Argentina in Brazil no one will remember 2010, much as no one much remembers/cares about Maradona in 1982.
 
Homeomorphic said:
Of course it was Maradona's fault. He played 3 central forwards and 2 wingers against Germany. Here's your reminder.

geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeermany.jpg


Di Maria and Maxi Rodriguez in central midfield. While Cambiasso in the form of his life on the back of a treble winning season was left at home. Nevermind that joke of a back 4. They didn't freeze for fun. They were set up retardedly. Not only the personnel and tactically but also mentally. Maradona saying that he never heard of "Thomas Müller" and asking if he was a ball boy. Christ on a bike.....z.
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Utter rubbish really. Argentina just plain froze.

Here's a reminder of stats from that game:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archiv...ches/round=249718/match=300061505/report.html

Argentina (ARG)
Shots on goal 20
Shots on Target 7
Corners 5
Possession 54%
Direct free kicks 1
Indirect free kicks 1
Fouls 20

Gemany (GER)

Shots on goal 18
Shots on Target 6
Corners 4
Possession 47%
Direct free kicks 2
Indirect free kicks 0
Fouls 14

It's a total myth that tactics let them down. They simply froze!
 
LTS10 said:
Do you understand football?.
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Do you? A team has more possession, more shots on goal, more shots on target, more corners and you claim its tactics that cost them the match?

LTS10 said:
Look at the way they set up against the Germans. It was entirely his fault, they never had a chance with Maradona's approach.
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Utter rubbish. They lost because they froze. Like Argentina sides have been doing since world cup 1998.
 
Brwned said:
Perhaps. The more appropriate and simple point would've been that final one - Maradona in '82 was good individually just like Messi was good individually in '10, and they were arguably the best players in the team throughout, but they took the brunt of the blame regardless because they are/were the big name in the side, and that side didn't go as far as expected. They take the brunt of the blame in spite of the other problems because superhuman things are expected of them, and people do believe they're capable of rising above it all and dragging that team further than it ever should've gone.

It's not just Messi who had to bear that burden, but the way the Messi-apologists go on about how the team was poorly organised you'd think it was some sort of tragedy that Messi was desperately unlucky to be a part of, when most great players have had to overcome the same kind of adversities throughout their career. It's all just a bit over-dramatic. The team was poorly set up, Messi couldn't lift his team to the latter stages in spite of that, it happens.

Maybe that's still tangential to the current topic but it's relevant to the overall one.
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I thought he was just responding to people who claimed he as an individual, played poorly at the WC?

I honestly don't know why comparisons with Maradona and the 80's are always made anyway, very different circumstances. Guess it'll always happen though
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Do you? A team has more possession, more shots on goal, more shots on target, more corners and you claim its tactics that cost them the match?

Utter rubbish. They lost because they froze. Like Argentina sides have been doing since world cup 1998.
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Tactics and team selections are often the cause of teams losing games. Not sure how that is an absurd suggestion at all.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Do you? A team has more possession, more shots on goal, more shots on target, more corners and you claim its tactics that cost them the match?

Utter rubbish. They lost because they froze. Like Argentina sides have been doing since world cup 1998.
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and a powderpuff defence and non existent midfield that allowed Germany to break them open numerous times.

Guess the answer to my original question was a resounding 'no'
 
Sewelly The Geordie said:
Tactics and team selections are often the cause of teams losing games. Not sure how that is an absurd suggestion at all.
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It is an absurd suggestion when the team that supposedly lost due to tactics dominated every aspect of the game except scoring.

Imagine people are claiming the Argies had no midfield in that game yet they dominated possession.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Utter rubbish really. Argentina just plain froze.

Here's a reminder of stats from that game:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archiv...ches/round=249718/match=300061505/report.html

Argentina (ARG)
Shots on goal 20
Shots on Target 7
Corners 5
Possession 54%
Direct free kicks 1
Indirect free kicks 1
Fouls 20

Gemany (GER)

Shots on goal 18
Shots on Target 6
Corners 4
Possession 47%
Direct free kicks 2
Indirect free kicks 0
Fouls 14

It's a total myth that tactics let them down. They simply froze!
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:lol:

You're totally contradicting yourself.

First you're telling us it wasnt anything to do with tactics because they had more shot and more possession, but you're also claiming they 'froze' in spite of more shot and more possession. you can't have it both ways.

The key stat here is this

Germany 4 Argentina 0

They weren't just beaten, they were thumped and they struggled to create any real good goal scoring chances.
 
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