Do you really believe the rubbish you are posting LST10? You can't 'fathom' how a team that dominated every facet of play in a game yet lost froze? Does their failure to score a single goal despite having more shots on goal and on target than the Germans register at all in your head?
Lionel Messi
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Just shows that statistics can be massively misleading at times. I certainly don't remember Argentina being the better team in that game.
I remember a Germany side that had far better shape and structure, more poise in possession, exploited the massive blackhole in Argentina's midfield and created the best chances of the game to win 4-0. Argentina were all over the place in that game and struggled to create any clear cut chances.
I remember a Germany side that had far better shape and structure, more poise in possession, exploited the massive blackhole in Argentina's midfield and created the best chances of the game to win 4-0. Argentina were all over the place in that game and struggled to create any clear cut chances.
Look chief, they're just numbers - no one watching that game saw anything but Argentina getting out-manoeuvred, out-thought and outplayed.
Yeah, definitely don't agree that Argentina froze in the quarters. Maradona stumbled across something that kind of worked in the group stages, then inexplicably ripped it up and put out that ridiculous team against Germany.
The stats are relatively meaningless, you don't even need to watch the whole match to tell just the goals, all pretty much tap-ins. It doesn't matter that Argentina had more shots when 4 of those 6 shots Germany had on target were on a plate.
I think people only go overboard in their criticism of that team as a defence for Messi, because blame for him for Argentina's failure is so stupid. He did as much as he could in that team & had a good WC. He was expected to be Verón & Messi for Argentina. Maradona took the best player in the world in the final third and pushed the likes of Maxi and di Maria forward ahead of him - players who wouldn't know movement off the ball if it was a wet fish slapping them in the face.
The stats are relatively meaningless, you don't even need to watch the whole match to tell just the goals, all pretty much tap-ins. It doesn't matter that Argentina had more shots when 4 of those 6 shots Germany had on target were on a plate.
I think people only go overboard in their criticism of that team as a defence for Messi, because blame for him for Argentina's failure is so stupid. He did as much as he could in that team & had a good WC. He was expected to be Verón & Messi for Argentina. Maradona took the best player in the world in the final third and pushed the likes of Maxi and di Maria forward ahead of him - players who wouldn't know movement off the ball if it was a wet fish slapping them in the face.
Since you're into numbers Chief, heres a number for you
'0'
Its the number of posters who think you're talking sense here!
They are not just numbers. They are actually indicative of what happens to Argentina every time they reach they knock out stages. They looked out thought and out maneuvered simply because they froze. It's not the first time it's happened to them either.
Mentally they have become a rather weak team since at least the year 2000. When the pressure is on they simply freeze. Their COPA America final defeat to Brazil was another classic example. A carbon copy of the 2010 World cup defeat to Germany.
Like I have ever given a shit what most people on here think.
It wasn't simply "tactics". It started with the squad selection (leaving out Cambiasso and Zanetti who were in the form of their lives), the starting lineup selection (3 forwards, 2 wingers) and the whole mentality Maradona drummed into his players. Not taking the opponent seriously. "Who is Thomas Müller, a ball boy?" After 2 minutes Müller scores and all of a sudden it's a bit of an awkward situation for that backline to concede from a "ball boy". Intelligent coaches always say the other teams are favourites, to take off the pressure of their own teams. I've never heard Guardiola claiming Barcelona were favourites in any game, not even against third division teams. He rather finds a way to praise the opponent. Maradona was belittling the official MVP of one of the most dangerous footballing nations in the world.
That possession and "shot on goal" statistic is also totally misleading. Germany were set up as a counterattacking team in the whole tournament (even more so after taking the lead after only 2 minutes) and didn't care about taking the initiative and being pro-active. They didn't allow Argentina to make anything meaningful with that bit of more possession though. Whenever Germany went forward they caused havoc in that joke of a Argentina backline. Whenever Argentina went forward, there was no gap and they had to take shots from angles that barely tested Neuer's reflexes.
Tactics didn't cost them. Maradona did.
He also made some remark about Schweinsteiger, like 'oh are you scared Scweinsteiger?' or something like that.
Baiting the German's is a horrible idea
That is something I will never agree to. Not when I saw them pull the same shit vs Brazil in a COPA America final with a very well balanced starting 11. An almost identical mauling to what Germany gave them.
Not to mention their shambolic 2002 world cup tournament, when they were coached by a master tactician like Bielsa.
It's high time the players got blamed for their freezing when the pressure is on in the national shirt. Every single one of them.
So are you saying Argentines have some gene that makes them freeze at WC's?
I'm not going too much into the details why Bielsa failed in 2002 because I like him too much to talk badly about him but ultimately his stubborness cost Argentina. His insistence with his 3-3-1-3 formation, despite it not working at all, was painful to watch. I mean even in 2011 it needed 2 out of 18 points in his first 6 games with Athletic to realise that 3-3-1-3 will not work. Now imagine him 9 year prior to that. Add some weird player selections to that too (Crespo on the bench, Aimar on the bench, Veron playing who was off-form and fighting with injuries all season, Ortega being allowed to do a one-man-show) and you've got another Argentina manager failing to manage his national team properly. Argentina going out in the group stages is hardly down to choking. It's down to mismanagement.
It's a poisoned job for some reason, as much as the England coaching job. After Maradona I thought I've seen it all. Then I witnessed Batista trying to emulate the Barcelona style with Gago and Mascherano in midfield. Oh boy ...
It's not as if Sabella wasn't some kind of lunatic by the way. He's also got his weird fetishes. Nominating a dozen of his former Estudiantes players who have absolutely no business to be in the Argentina squad, playing Di Maria in central midfield again and stuff like that.
Really what Argentina need to do is hire a foreign coach and take a lot of the emotion out of it.
Personally I've seized to understand why the performances of the senior team are frozen in stasis at the big stage when they have such talented players, who do it at the big stage for their clubs sides. They have the English national side type of disease. You place them together in a national shirt and its like they carry the weight of the universe.
Peter Storey is probably on to something. They might need a foreign coach. If I were them I'd go out of the way to ''seduce'' Guardiola.
Seriously? You think its genes that make people freeze? Ever heard of mental weakness?
If you think the English FA is a mess, you'd go mad trying to understand the intricacies and folly of the AFA
The only facet they dominated there was the fouls (and goals conceded). Just nitpicking.
Game. Set. Match.
Surprised the Chief didn't insult your intelligence for that post.
Maradone was playing 4CBs in defence.
Probably the biggest indictment of Argentina managers in the past two World Cups is the omission of Javier Zanetti at right-back, instead playing the likes of Burdisso (3 games), Scaloni (1 game), Coloccini (1 game) in 2006 and Jonás fecking Gutiérrez (2 games), Otamendi (2 games), Burdisso (1 game) in 2010 while Zanetti had had better club seasons than all of them in the corresponding periods apart from being an infinitely better football player as well...
Scored a splendid winner in a 4-3 win over Brazil
Did I mention a hattrick as well.
Did I mention a hattrick as well.
Bit better quality here, ridiculous.
Only does it against shit nations.
He's not even in the Euro's and he is outperforming Ronaldo.
How many is that for the season now?
It is mental that in this day and age he was able to score 50 goals in the league. I thought the likes of Pele (58 goals)/Dixie Dean's (60 goals) league goal records (not sure if Pele's still stands but Dean's still top in English league) would never be beaten by another top striker in the top leagues but if anyone can do it, it is him.
It's amazing how so many of his goals are quality finishing though. If you'd never heard of him before you'd think he was just an outright poacher but the amount of assists he has aswell is unreal.
What is the record for combined goals + assists in a season?
It's amazing how so many of his goals are quality finishing though. If you'd never heard of him before you'd think he was just an outright poacher but the amount of assists he has aswell is unreal.
What is the record for combined goals + assists in a season?
Season 2011/12
60 apps, 73 goals, 29 assists for FC Barcelona
+
9 apps, 9 goals, 5 assists for Argentina
=
69 apps, 82 goals, 34 assists for club and country
The all-time world record for combined club and country goals was Pelé's 75, so quite smashed that then.
Also, Messi's hattrick was the first by an Argentinian against Brazil since Jose Sanfilippo in 1959.
When Messi leads Argentina to the World Cup in 2014 in the lion's den of Brazil his status in the pantheon of the game's greats will be at its zenith.
The record for league goals is 66 by Ferenc Deak for Europe (1945/46 Hungarian first division) and 67 by Archibald Stark in the world (1924/25 American Soccer League).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_association_football_goal_scorers_in_a_single_season
Your question on combined goals and assists is impossible to find out, because assist stats have only very recently been kept (00s) and even now they're not clear cut. From post-war players I would say only Pelé could match Messi's output in both, and even then it's unlikely (certainly in his early period, maybe in the 1961-63 period).
Messi is one of the only players I've ever seen who is so involved in the build-up of the majority of his goals, either through dribbling or passing. It's unreal.
No words. He continues to give me semi's.
Cheers.
I knew that Dixie and Pele weren't the top League scorers but i thought they'd have been more highly regarded than Deak and Stark which is why i made the comparison with them (also since i'm a fan of Everton
)Definitely is unreal, when you take his goals in games (in his career) as a percentage you get a figure of 77% and combined goals and assists works out as 108%. He's a freak of nature.
Shame Messi always bottles them. [/cal?]
I don't see him doing that, but if he did and kept on performing the way he has been for Barcelona, I think it could eventually reach the stage where he is deemed as the undisputed greatest ever. I know that's a big claim because people are so opinionated with this sort of thing, and will disagree for a number of reasons, but he could end up being a more clear choice than anyone else for that sort of thing.
People have held onto tiny criticisms in the past, such as his international form, but it seems that he's quickly getting rid of all of those criticisms one by one.
He is the most talented sportsman I have ever seen.
Pele's pre match dig at Messi that Neymar was a better player than him makes the old fool look even more foolish, desperate and ridiculous than ever
I still don't like him. My god do I respect him but I just can't bring myself to like him.
It will be his Maradona 86 moment. If over the next two seasons he continues to perform at similar levels as he has over the past 3-4 years at Barca, then he will probably be regarded as the greatest footballer ever going into World Cup 2014.
In fairness, Pele always bigs up the latest Brazlian player irrespective how foolish he looks. A few years back when Ronnie had his big year for us (scoring 40+) Pele kept bigging up Kaka instead. Its what he does as Brazil's defacto football Ambassador.
Nah, it won't happen going into that tournament. Winning it would give him the title. Infant even if his level drops a little in the next 3-4 years but he stars in Argentina winning it he'll be regarded as such. That's how important it is to his legacy.
People who watch club football will already perceive as the greatest ever. Its only the people who watch football once every four years durings WCs that will still have their heads in the sand. The idea that a player has to win a WC to be the best is deeply flawed imo.
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