Lionel Messi

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noodlehair said:
They wont, because it doesn't create nearly the same heat now, and he's not some nobody playing for Hercules at the mercy of the Barca/Real controlled Spanish football/media system.

And how on earth does this make him a hypocrit? If someone rapes you, and you do nothing to stop it, are you a hypocrit for complaining about it?
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Err, extreme example there. Ok maybe its not the perfect choice of word. He's going on in the interview about how it bothered him and how he can't stand the word "negro", but the reality is he didn't do anything about it. Not part of the solution.

I don't understand what you're arguing about. Racism and racial awareness in Spain aren't going to improve if people ignore/are too afraid to come out and make an issue out of it when they are the victim. Surely that's not hard to agree with?
 
B19 said:
That is a mouthful of assumption.



So is this, though not quite as much as your first paragraph.



This I do agree somewhat with.

The way I see it, Drenthe hasn't actually accused Messi of racist abuse. He has used Messi as an example of South American players using language not acceptable here in Europe. I think Drenthe basically just wants the attention and I think the media are mistakenly jumping on this as racist abuse (and Drenthe has certainly given the ammo for it), but besides all this, there is a salient point: There is a cultural gap here that touches on the issue of racism that merits attention.
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Neither are assumptions.. They are reasons why Drenthe MIGHT not have wanted or been able to report the matter at the time. Not that this should even be an excuse to not treat what he says seriously, but that's what people seem to be trying to do, so here we are.

The issue merits attention, not fanboys getting their knickers in a twist because precious little Messi has been accused of possibly doing something wrong about 5 years ago.

The Drenthe being an attention seeker line has about as much substance as the "but Evra's a hot head!" defence...it's just an immediate attempt to not have to take the accusation or issue seriously.

Has Drenthe repeatedly accused people of racially abusing him in order to seek attention in the past?
 
noodlehair said:
Drenthe doesn't even appear to be accusing Messi of being a racist. Just suggesting that attitudes from South American players are different and perhaps quite ignorant...don't let that get in the way of your outrage though.
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that's exactly what i understood from drenthe's interview. he wasn't accusing messi of being racist, but of being insensitive, calling him "negro" in a non racist way, but disregarding the tone that that word has for many people

in fact, he explains that the same happened with heinze and higuain, but they stopped using that word when asked to

if that's the case, i mean, if he didnt feel racially abused, there's no reason to ask why he didnt come with that before. he was asked a question and he replied. it is meaningless if it happened yesterday, the they before that or two years ago
 
kps88 said:
Err, extreme example there. Ok maybe its not the perfect choice of word. He's going on in the interview about how it bothered him and how he can't stand the word "negro", but the reality is he didn't do anything about it. Not part of the solution.

I don't understand what you're arguing about. Racism and racial awareness in Spain aren't going to improve if people ignore/are too afraid to come out and make an issue out of it when they are the victim. Surely that's not hard to agree with?
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What exactly is it you would like him to "do" about it? Aside from come out and say he doesn't think that kind of behaviour should be acceptable...which is what he's done.

You are saying racial awareness will not improve if the victim does not tell you when he feels victimised...and yet when he does tell you he feels victimised, you say "too late, you should have brought it up at the time. It's now your fault for letting it happen"

...Can you not see which person it actually is making themselves into part of the problem here?
 
Randall Flagg said:
I have somehow missed all this.

Does it mean Suarez was in fact very harshley punished?
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Saurez' has previous, infact alot of previous, of being a horrible bastard.

His general behaviour would probably lead more people to believe that he DID use it in a derogatory sense and to antagonize Evra.

Ofcourse, nothing can be proven.
 
noodlehair said:
What exactly is it you would like him to "do" about it? Aside from come out and say he doesn't think that kind of behaviour should be acceptable...which is what he's done.

You are saying racial awareness will not improve if the victim does not tell you when he feels victimised...and yet when he does tell you he feels victimised, you say "too late, you should have brought it up at the time. It's now your fault for letting it happen"

...Can you not see which person it actually is making themselves into part of the problem here?
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I mostly just joined in to say that in general I find Drenthe a bit of a brat, but I do agree that however I may think so, arguing that point in relation to this probably does become part of the problem.
 
LTS10 said:
Saurez' has previous, infact alot of previous, of being a horrible bastard.

His general behaviour would probably lead more people to believe that he DID use it in a derogatory sense and to antagonize Evra.

Ofcourse, nothing can be proven.
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Heh. "He dives, made a handball at the WC and bit someone. So he probably is more likely to be racist."
 
noodlehair said:
What exactly is it you would like him to "do" about it? Aside from come out and say he doesn't think that kind of behaviour should be acceptable...which is what he's done.

You are saying racial awareness will not improve if the victim does not tell you when he feels victimised...and yet when he does tell you he feels victimised, you say "too late, you should have brought it up at the time. It's now your fault for letting it happen"

...Can you not see which person it actually is making themselves into part of the problem here?
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I would have him not bury it under the carpet and come out and say his piece after the alleged incident took place. Not mention it ages later in some random magazine interview so it sounds like attention seeking/sour grapes so as to devalue his allegations. Would seem like the most obvious thing to do...
 
B19 said:
there is a salient point: There is a cultural gap here that touches on the issue of racism that merits attention.
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Absolutely...Personally, I can't jump when someone cries wolf about racism simply because few actually understands what it means to actually be racist...It's not a term I'd toss around freely and I'm troubled that so many are so eager to label someone this or that

Spain, without reservation has race issues...as does just about any country on the planet...More than most?...Maybe but definitely a problem...It's compounded, regrettably, by cultural insensitivities/respect on top of that which reflects the old Imperial history, for me...But how on earth could Ronnie, Samu, Thuram, Abidal, Henry, Yaya etc not have even suggested such a heinous accusation before this eh?

Consider the source, that's rule #1 when interpreting a story...The fact that he's black is secondary...It'd be the same if it were John Terry, zero credibility...But if it were Thuram?...Then you'd have to treat it with more credibility if not certainty

For me, it's just the media being the media with 'gotchya' journalism in an otherwise quiet newsfront for the sport...It's revolting as I feel it demeans the game
 
marcosdeto said:
that's exactly what i understood from drenthe's interview. he wasn't accusing messi of being racist, but of being insensitive, calling him "negro" in a non racist way, but disregarding the tone that that word has for many people

in fact, he explains that the same happened with heinze and higuain, but they stopped using that word when asked to

if that's the case, i mean, if he didnt feel racially abused, there's no reason to ask why he didnt come with that before. he was asked a question and he replied. it is meaningless if it happened yesterday, the they before that or two years ago
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Yep. At worst he might be implying that Messi knew what he was doing, but there's nothing in what Drenthe says directly accusing him of that.

He seems to have been asked about the issue of players using what could be deemed insulting or racist terminology to him, and has brought up that South American players seem to have a problem understanding the full implications of a certain word outside of their own culture.


Randall Flagg said:
I have somehow missed all this.

Does it mean Suarez was in fact very harshley punished?
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No, but it's why the case was "complex" in the words of the FA. In the end it was ruled that Suarez was deliberately using words in a derogatory context to Evra. So not really the same thing as Heinze accidentally insulting his team mates on a training pitch (which is basically what Suarez's defence was).
 
LTS10 said:
I didn't say that, so I hope thats not what you're implying.
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I am saying it does look conspicuously like jumping through hoops to argue that in the case of the Liverpool player vs the United player, it is totally different.
 
noodlehair said:
Not to mention that the Spanish media would have ripped him to shreds if he'd chirped up about it at the time.
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Drenthe at the time was and still is under contract with Real Madrid. The biggest sports newspaper in the country is? Right, MARCA. Ding, ding, ding! Real Madrid's own house paper would have used the opportunity to start a campaign and tarnish the reputation of Barcelona's star player in a blink of an eye if Drenthe would have said something.

Isn't that somehow racist by the way to suggest Spanish media would rip a victim of racism to shreds? Hence the general Spanish public supports racism?
 
People are just being oversensitive because it's messi. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe he's not. We really don't know.
 
Homeomorphic said:
Drenthe at the time was and still is under contract with Real Madrid. The biggest sports newspaper in the country is? Right, MARCA. Ding, ding, ding! Real Madrid's own house paper would have used the opportunity to start a campaign and tarnish the reputation of Barcelona's star player in a blink of an eye if Drenthe would have said something.

Isn't that somehow racist by the way to suggest Spanish media would rip a victim of racism to shreds? Hence the general Spanish public supports racism?
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:lol:
 
kouroux said:
How do you figure that out from everything that's been said by posters ? Gross overreaction noodle
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I figure it's quite daft to accuse the person who says they were the victim of racist language of somehow being part responsible for the problem, because they dared to bring the issue up years later, when asked about it.

I worded it poorly perhaps.
 
noodlehair said:
I figure it's quite daft to accuse the person who says they were the victim of racist language of somehow being part responsible for the problem, because they dared to bring the issue up years later, when asked about it.

I worded it poorly perhaps.
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If there was a real issue regarding the racism, I don't think Drenthe would have waited to make a comment on it.Now was he asked about it ? It's possible.
I just think that this situation and the Evra/Suarez are different (not saying you implied they're the same).If Drenthe thought he was racially abused (just like Evra with Suarez), he would surely have commented and reported it a long time ago.It's what I'd have done and have done each I've been racially abused.
It's something completely different though in this case
 
B19 said:
I am saying it does look conspicuously like jumping through hoops to argue that in the case of the Liverpool player vs the United player, it is totally different.
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Well I'm not.

Just saying people are more likely to believe Saurez tried to bait the player because hes got previous for acting like a twat.

Not saying thats how I view it.
 
kouroux said:
If there was a real issue regarding the racism, I don't think Drenthe would have waited to make a comment on it.Now was he asked about it ? It's possible.
I just think that this situation and the Evra/Suarez are different (not saying you implied they're the same).If Drenthe thought he was racially abused (just like Evra with Suarez), he would surely have commented and reported it a long time ago.It's what I'd have done and have done each I've been racially abused.
It's something completely different though in this case
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People are different though. And circumstances are too. Maybe he thought it was pointless. Maybe he's not as strong minded as evra who is a very bullish character. Maybe unlike evra he didn't have faith in the system. Maybe it didn't truly bother him enough. God knows. But too many are brushing his accusation away just because its come now. The timing isn't televant imo.
 
I think it's a real problem that especially black players have to deal with racial insults all of the time in football.

According to our former player Diouf it's something that is quite common on the field apparently.

When being asked by Bild about racist remarks by other players he said:

Mame Biran Diouf said:
You have trouble with this everywhere. The opposition players try to destroy you with it on the field. They always tell you such things. But I don't care, I don't let it get to me. God made made me black and I'm proud of it.
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It's really a sad thing that players still have to deal with this stuff apparently on a fairly regular basis.
 
Again, where on earth is the term "negro" considered racist.

I honestly want to know. In the overly PCized United States, "black" is not considered offensive, neither is "negro".
 
amolbhatia100 said:
People are different though. And circumstances are too. Maybe he thought it was pointless. Maybe he's not as strong minded as evra who is a very bullish character. Maybe unlike evra he didn't have faith in the system. Maybe it didn't truly bother him enough. God knows. But too many are brushing his accusation away just because its come now. The timing isn't televant imo.
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What do we do then since it's all the conjectures ? What do we think of it ? Me there is nothing I think or feel about this, Drenthe might right and Messi might have said nasty words to him but so far he's the only one who's spoken.
 
LTS10 said:
An extraordinary video if you've got 11 minutes

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Crazy. I bet there are all-time greats that don't have compilations showing the best moments of their whole career as impressive as that video.

He's pretty much got the movement of Hernandez, the finishing of Van Nistelrooy, the dribbling of Maradona and the vision of Iniesta. The ultimate attacking player...
 
Will watch the video later but he has had an amazing season. If the likes of Rooney or Van Perdue scored that many in 2 season you would consider that to be incredible. I just don't know where he can go from here. He is obviously young enough to get better but....how? The expectations on him next season will be immense.
 
Di Matteo must have a sack of four leaf clovers or something.
 
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