Indeed. When Messi doesn't score, he tends to create a lot for his teammates, when Ronaldo finishes a game without scoring you can bet he's has a poor game.
Lionel Messi
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Indeed. When Messi doesn't score, he tends to create a lot for his teammates, when Ronaldo finishes a game without scoring you can bet he's has a poor game.
the truth is that in argentina -probably most of south america- we use "negro" "gordo" (fatso) "flaco" (skinny) "narigon" (big nose) "petiso" (shorty) "pelado" (baldy) "lungo" (tall) and other physical features as nicknames, and no one gets offended. Its not used in an offensive manner and everyone accepts it
popular people in argentina are known that way
like "el narigon" bilardo (argentinain coach during 1986 and 1990 world cups, "el negro" enrique -argentinian player, won the 1986 world cup, el "pelado" dìaz, argentinian footballer, he played for river plate and in the 1982 world cup argentinian side, el "flaco" menotti -argentinian coach in 1978-
i can go on with actors and actresses, but it will mean nothing for the caftards
can they be used in a derogatory manner? of course, as most words, but it's all about context,
have messi used them in that way? i don't know, it might, but according to drenthe's words, it seems he didnt
This has indeed been true more often than not in Ronaldo's Real Madrid career. At United he was a better player for me and especially in 2006/07 he managed to combine scoring and creating perfectly. The season thereafter he showed that he was a lethal finisher as well. But gradually his playmaking ability has disappeared or been largely abandoned ever since.
Every manager in the world would take a 11/12 Ronaldo over a 06/07 Ronaldo. It's not even close, he blasts his younger self out of the water.
Every manager in the world who has a world-class 10 at his disposal perhaps... otherwise you won't see those same numbers too often.
Just like you wouldn't for Messi outside of Barcelona.
Nah, not buying that at all, there's no way you can justify any player having a better individual season than a player that has just scored and assisted over 100 goals a season with 2 games to go, It is the most productive season by a player in the history of football FFS.
It is an amazing feat that will almost certainly never be replicated, not even by Messi. Save for Ronaldo ending up being the euros' top scorer and Portugal reaching the last 4 or something Messi is a shoe in for the 4th Ballon d'or in a row.
He doesn't though, he only blasts his goal scoring out of the water. His overall performances were better back then.
Messi is the only reason Barcelona went past Milan in the first place.
Was Patrice Evra playing Right and Left back in this game?Ballon d'or goes by years, not seasons.
You sure about it's the most productive ever? Assists have been counted for less than two decades. It hasn't even been counted the whole PL era.
In the 1930-31 season Arsenal scored 127 goals and Villa scored 128 goals. I can't find the top scorers in those team and I sure as hell can't find the assists number. That same season United set a record in a major European league for the worst start by a team by losing their first 12 games.
Back in those days they didn't even have Europe.
In the season 1972-73 Gerd Muller scored 67 goals in 49 games. That season Munchen finished 11 points ahead of the next team, 12 above the other and 14 above the 3rd. Barcelona are currently 29 points ahead of the next team with one game left and 35 points ahead of the next team after that.
People say it was easier back then but Real and Barca have certainly showed different. Don't discount history so easily. The only thing I've done to prove a point is look up the record for most goals by a team in the top division in England and Gerd Muller. That's it. And I've found evidence of 3 accounts where you may have individuals that took part in as many goals as Messi did this season. We just don't know it. The only thing you can say for sure is the record in recent years or strictly mention goals. The assists have been counted for far to short of a time to be measured and they haven't even always been counted the same.
Oh, and Pele score once 54 goals in 37 games and 66 goals in 46 games. That's league only.
You're drawing way to quick here. People have said many times in the last few years about Ronaldo and Messi that that is it now, they've peaked.
Nah, if overall performances include goals, he 's much better. Even without goals, he's an integral part of Real's play, not a deadlier version of Inzaghi.
Except for the fact that it wasn't Messi who's the topscorer when the La Liga title was all but decided after the last El Clasico. Many people pointed out that scoring multiple goals after the title is lost is rather meaningless last season, yet somehow this season, with Messi doing it, it's some kind of amazing achievement.
rofl at the bias of 06/07 Ronaldo being better than the current Ronaldo.....I mean seriously.....did you put any thought into that post?
I disagreed that the current version of Ronaldo 'blows his younger self out of the water', it's not exactly funny for someone to have that opinion, especially when Ronaldo was the best player in the world in 06/07.
I then said his overall performances were better in 06/07 and if you disagree with that and think he's improved his overall performances then still it's hardly improved by 'blowing it out of the water'. The only thing that he has blown out of the water is his goal scoring.
Did you think through your post rather than 'rofling' at an opinion that really isn't that funny?
I then said his overall performances were better in 06/07 and if you disagree with that and think he's improved his overall performances then still it's hardly improved by 'blowing it out of the water'. The only thing that he has blown out of the water is his goal scoring.
Did you think through your post rather than 'rofling' at an opinion that really isn't that funny?
Pele's said a lot of things on the subject. Not sure what show it was but not long after the World Cup Pele had to nominate his top 5 players and Messi was 4, behind Xavi and Rooney and someone else. Not long after he said Neymar was #1. Then that Messi documentary was on ITV1 after that Leverkusen game and he said Messi's #1.
I agree with this & the notion that Ronaldo was a better footballer when at United or probably his play-making skills were better utilised by Ferguson.
I thought Nicky Butt was No.1? I must remember to keep up with the great man's pronouncements.
He lost me at Neymar #1. Obviously all of that enhanced blood flow to his cock has reduced brain function. Which wasn't particularly strong in the first place.
Scousers will latch on to this now
Messi plays in Spain. He can get away with calling black players anything he wants.
I'm sure Samu will also be calling a pressy soon to back these racism claims as well
It's an interesting point indeed, and certainly the question of assists. Just a couple of remarks:
* Pongo Waring was Aston Villa's top scorer in the 1930/31 season with 49 league goals (50 in all comps), a record which Messi has broken.
* "Herbert Chapman's team was blessed with an irresistible front line of Jack Lambert, David Jack and Cliff Bastin and opposition defences simply had no answer to their combined talents. Lambert scored 38 goals in 34 matches, Jack 31 in 35 and Bastin 28 from 42. Joe Hulme also chipped in with 14 goals as Arsenal racked up 127 league goals, a club record for a single season."
* don't really understand your point about Bayern's pts total? You do realize a win was only 2pts in those days right? So under 3pts rule they would have had 79pts and 2nd placed Köln would have had 59pts, a gap of 20pts
* Müller had 6 Bundesliga assists in 1972/73 (don't have any stats for the various cups, although the number would most likely not exceed 10-15)
* Pelé is a very likely candidate for having contributed to 100+ goals, but because assist stats for his period are non-existant it can't be proven.
Just in theory though,
Messi has contributed to 101 goals (72 goals + 29 assists) by my count, out of 185 Barcelona goals in total this season = 54.6% ; and out of 166 goals when he was on the pitch = 60.8%
In terms of goals only, he's at 38.9% in total ; and 43.4% when on the pitch.
Pelé's scored 66 goals in all comps (not only league) in the 1958 season, out of 167 Santos goals in total that season = 39.5% ; and out of 163 goals when he was on the pitch = 40.5%
So in terms of scoring they're fairly even. I don't think Pelé would have contributed as much in terms of assists as Messi does, because he was closer to a 9 than a playmaker and the 5-man forward line of those days should have theoretically diluted the number of assisters. For Pelé to reach the 60% of Messi, he would have needed 31-32 assists, which seems unlikely for the above mentioned reasons.
That's my theory anyway.
Judgement is based on August from the previous year through to the early autumn of the next year (August - August is probably the simplest definition). Hence why in 2006 Zidane came in the top 5 in despite retiring in July, or Cannavaro won the award despite being poor for Madrid in the autumn of 06/07.
The rest of the post is sound though.
Nah, Pele was a #10, after all he's the one who the role was named after; Coutinho was surely the #9. Only saw him in two games for Santos but he dropped as deep as the halfway line regularly, as he did for Brazil any time after '58 - and even then, in the build-up to one of their goals in the '58 final he dropped all the way back to win the ball in his own half. And Brazil were famed for the 424 throughout his time and after, always playing something between a 424 and a 433...much like we do now! No 5 man attacks for Pele.
There still were in the late 50s in Brazil, which concerns the season I was discussing. In the 60s the dominant system in Brazil became indeed a 4-2-4, but my point was that young Pelé was more of a finisher than a playmaker.
See also the 1958 World Cup, where he was played as an inside left, after that the natural evolution would be to drop him back into the position of the 10. My argument is that this happened in 1959-60 at the earliest, so not in his record season.
Here is a Twitter from Thiago Alcantara where he refers to his own father, brother and himself as "negritos":
http://twitter.com/#!/Thi_Alcantara91/status/148000842459529216/photo/1
It just doesn't have the same meaning as in England. Make of that what you will in the Suarez case.
regardless of where the feck you're from, if you are in another country, completely unaware 'or ignorant' of moral traditions and culture, you shut the feck up and act in a reasonable manner. Just because it's alright in Argentina, doesn't make it alright in Spain or England or the USA or anywhere. Ignorance is not a defense.
I think if all Suarez had done was called Evra "negro" or "negrito" in a friendly or concilliatory mangger, that he thought it was acceptable would be a perfectly legitimate defence. He didn't though, he said he had kicked Evra because he is black, and said he does not speak to blacks in an effort to goad Evra into punching him or drawing a foul.
I think it was. Then again, if Suarez had offered a quick explanation/apology, it wouldn't have escalated to the levels it did.
its all in the context of how you say it, i can't deny that theres a chance that he didnt do it because he is racist, but because he knew that Evra would react badly
anyway, he is still a cnut of the highest order because he used something very painfull to gain some sort of advantage over evra
it fire back though
Yea I know. It's supposed to be yearly based but people don't often see it that way. Hence Bale getting awards as well.
No I didn't realize that
My point was that footbaal back then wasn't easier than it is now. A common argument that I wanted to get out of the way.
Where did you get those stats for assists. Did someone count all the assists based on videos? Because nothing was counted back in those days at all. You have goals, yellow and red cards on match reports. That's it.
Pele of course never managed as many games in one season for a club like Messi did this season. You can't really play anymore games than he has.
For the record I think his record is great and what you've said is probably true. I just disagree on calling it that absolutely and to say it will never be bettered. Records are meant to be broken.
The topic is far more complex than that. What makes you believe "negro" isn't accepted in the USA for instance? Last time I checked the United States Census Bureau officially used the term "negro" in their 2010 Census.
Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010...ro-addition/UPI-70241262798663/#ixzz1uTeZiZgm
There is no court in Europe or the USA that will sentence you for using the word "negro". It might come across as impolite in certain cultures (as impolite as you using the term "where the feck" for example) but that's it. It's not a crime, nor automatically a racist term. Like calling someone a "cnut" doesn't make you a sexist, although I'm pretty sure feminists won't fancy that term.
You know what this was called in many European countries not long ago?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocol...reats#Fl.C3.B8debolle.2FNegerbolle.2FNegerkys
So much for "traditions and culture".
Of course I have no idea what and how and in which manner Suarez talked to Evra. May have intended racism. May have not.
No I didn't realize that
My point was that footbaal back then wasn't easier than it is now. A common argument that I wanted to get out of the way.
Where did you get those stats for assists. Did someone count all the assists based on videos? Because nothing was counted back in those days at all. You have goals, yellow and red cards on match reports. That's it.
Pele of course never managed as many games in one season for a club like Messi did this season. You can't really play anymore games than he has.
For the record I think his record is great and what you've said is probably true. I just disagree on calling it that absolutely and to say it will never be bettered. Records are meant to be broken.
The German football magazine Kicker has kept assist stats for the Bundesliga since its inception; in Germany they even use a more liberal approach (ie winning penalties, rebounds, etc. are also considered assists).
1972/73 Bundesliga season: http://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/1973/statistik/
("Vorlagen" means assists)
Take for example a random match report: http://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/1973/18/bmuenchen-oberhausen/
FC Bayern München v RW Oberhausen 5-3
1-0, Hollmann (own-goal, assisted by Breitner) min. 4
2-0, Hoffmann (assisted by Müller) min. 7
3-0, Müller (pen., foul on Müller by Tenhagen) min. 12
3-1, Wilbertz (assisted by Schumacher) min. 58
4-1, Müller (header, assisted by Hansen) min. 68
5-1, Hoeneß (assisted by Dürnberger) min. 72
5-2, Tenhagen (assisted by Mumme) min. 74
5-3, Kobluhn (pen., foul on Hollmann by Schwarzenbeck) min. 75
Got to love that German thoroughness
mariachi!!! who did it? i bet it was Top
back to the topic, you are talking about football players, not UN ambassadors
and you should know that not every british go around the world shutting the feck up and acting in a reasonable manner, quite the contrary
and finally, it is not "alright" in argentina to be racist, but it is not racist in argentina to call "negro" a black person. Because, being "negro" is not a bad thing, is a characteristic of a person, not more, not less
The German football magazine Kicker has kept assist stats for the Bundesliga since its inception; in Germany they even use a more liberal approach (ie winning penalties, rebounds, etc. are also considered assists).
1972/73 Bundesliga season: http://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/1973/statistik/
("Vorlagen" means assists)
Take for example a random match report: http://www.fussballdaten.de/bundesliga/1973/18/bmuenchen-oberhausen/
FC Bayern München v RW Oberhausen 5-3
1-0, Hollmann (own-goal, assisted by Breitner) min. 4
2-0, Hoffmann (assisted by Müller) min. 7
3-0, Müller (pen., foul on Müller by Tenhagen) min. 12
3-1, Wilbertz (assisted by Schumacher) min. 58
4-1, Müller (header, assisted by Hansen) min. 68
5-1, Hoeneß (assisted by Dürnberger) min. 72
5-2, Tenhagen (assisted by Mumme) min. 74
5-3, Kobluhn (pen., foul on Hollmann by Schwarzenbeck) min. 75
Got to love that German thoroughness
That's brilliant. Years ahead of the English. They're always ahead. Even basic stuff like the FA's homepage is better.
Pretty sure it's the correct way to count assists the way you described. That's how it's counted now in general at least by Actim, Opta and all the official stats masters. You also get an assist if there's an own goal as well. That's the only thing that's missing.
edit: They're missing assist data from 1975-2001. Guess the guy who started counting this was fired or quit or something.
But looking at the other years the assist numbers seem consistent. Getting close to 20 is about as good as it gets. As far as it's been counted in La Liga to my knowledge Xavi has the record with 20 assists.
mariachi!!! who did it? i bet it was Top
back to the topic, you are talking about football players, not UN ambassadors
and you should know that not every british go around the world shutting the feck up and acting in a reasonable manner, quite the contrary
and finally, it is not "alright" in argentina to be racist, but it is not racist in argentina to call "negro" a black person. Because, being "negro" is not a bad thing, is a characteristic of a person, not more, not less
Why do you go off on these tangents so often? They don't offer anything to your argument!Yes it's very much incomplete, but keep in mind this is just a compilation site, the original Kicker match reports would probably contain the info but nobody has been able to digitalize them in their entirety would be my guess.
Re: assists, well going by most footballing leagues and bodies rebounds and winning penalties aren't considered assists, so that's how I see it as well.
Ah, well then I of course agree with your point and obviously it's very unlikely he did get 30-odd assists. And you might be right about him playing further forward in that season, but I wouldn't be so sure as that was the season Coutinho signed for Santos and I imagine he played behind him from the get-go. Out of interest where did you read he played as an inside-left in '58? As far as I could tell they set up something like this (which is the same basic system they played in almost every World Cup up until the 90s, I believe):
Code:
Gilmar
De Sordi Orlando Bellini N.Santos
Zito
Didi Zagallo
Garrincha
Vava Pele
because he said "Just because it's alright in Argentina"
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