Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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The main argument for Ronaldo or anyone else to win it over Messi is that performances in crucial matches that lead to your team achieving its goals carry more weight than isolated ones. Otherwise you will always give the best player award to the best dribbler about and no need to think about midfielders or defenders. Messi so far is ahead of Ronaldo but the latter has the opportunity to surpass by performing and contributing in some crucial matches. It is really not rocket science.
The thing is go and watch his goal videos of 2007/08 or the season after and then watch the videos from this and last season.
Maybe I see it to much through United glasses or it's just that he scores so many goals these days that the really great goals get drown a bit in penalties and not so impressive goals but to me the way he scored his goals back then seemed to be much more exciting on a constant basis then those from today.
And I'm not speaking about pretty step overs but the way he scored his goals.
Sure he had a fair amount of short distance goals when playing for us as well but the amount of amazing free kick goals and other great stuff seams to be much more common then they are these days.
But yeah maybe I don't watch enough games from Real and maybe my memory is subjectively in favor of the Ronny that was playing for us to really be the judge of how Ronnies game has change since he left.
ah feck it NoLogo, it's a Messi thread anyway.
I don't know how anyone can follow Messi's career over the course of this season and decide that he hasn't performed in crucial games. Or, at least, hasn't performed as well as Ronaldo in crucial games. Even this supposed low-point to his season - against Chelsea - featured no worse a performance in the first leg than Ronaldo put in against Bayern in Munich.
As Brwned already pointed out if you want to talk about attacking footballers at Madrid who are really turning it on at the business end of the CL then Benzema is arguably out-performing him. Which, in part, explains why Barca failed to beat Chelsea. The fact that nobody else at Barca is stepping up to score the goals instead, when he's not quite on his game.
Exactly. Messi can be the better footballer but it doesn't mean each season he is the best. This season, if Ronaldo is able to wrap-up the league and CL, why wouldn't he deserve it more so than Messi? It would be hard to argue that Messi has had a better season than Ronaldo if he comes out on top in those competitions, having been instrumental for Madrid so far in all competitions.
I agree, a player who ends up throphyless shouldn't win those awards unless no-one else is deserving.
If Ronaldo wins both competitions now AND is instrumental tonight/in the final then he has to win it, anything else would be David Ginola like!
Are the awards for having a better season or for the best player?
Actually, scratch that, I know the answer. They almost always go to whichever one of the best players happens to play for the most successful team.
Which is stupid, if you ask me. Might as well combine team and individual honours if that's the case.
Mental that in a 63 goal season he played a pretty big part in them going out of the CL.
Obviously wouldnt pin it solely on him, hes dragged the team for a while and it just looks like hes struggling to keep going now.
An inch lower and the penalty was in off the bar and the game was completely different. The fine margins in football are unbelievable.
Obviously wouldnt pin it solely on him, hes dragged the team for a while and it just looks like hes struggling to keep going now.
An inch lower and the penalty was in off the bar and the game was completely different. The fine margins in football are unbelievable.
In that case you should just ship the trophy off to Messi every season then
And Maradona should've won it every year for 6 years or so.
And Gazza should've won the EPOTY for a good few years.
It's basically a player of the season award for the World, so no, being the best player isn't good enough otherwise we might as well give it Messi even if he misses 5 months with an injury.
Bizarre logic!
For the player who has had the best season obviously. If Ronaldo can lead Madrid to domestic and European success, then it should be him as there really hasn't been much between them otherwise, the major difference being the honors if Madrid can achieve them.
Yup. Basically, it's a combination of individual performances and where those performances take your team.
A lot can still be decided by the rest of the season and also the first half of next season, but I think if Messi manages to beat Gerd Muller's scoring record of 67 goals, you have to hand the award to him.
That is an individual achievement of incredibly merit that no one would have expected anyone to beat and this era of football and he will have done by being the most exciting and technically brilliant player on the planet as well.
That's the sort of individual accomplishment you have to recognise.
That'll be tecognized by him winning the Pichichi, or whatever the scoring trophy is called nowadays.
There was no award like this for Maradona to win back then. Platini won it three years in a row. I don't think it is unreasonably that Messi should take home 4 on the bounce. He is clearly a much better player.
And Gascoigne was never the best player in Europe. Don't be daft.
rofl were starting to get the player award discussion.....turning into americans i tells ya.
It all depends on how you view it.
As an award for the best player whos won big titles, or simply the best player.
I can see both sides of the argument.
Personally I'd give it to CR7 should Real win the CL with him playing a big part. Failing that I wouldnt be against Messi winning it again because I think hes really carried his side this season and they'd have been in trouble much sooner without him.
I'm obviously a big fan of Messi but I feel sorry for him right now. He'll probably take most of the blame but when you look back to the chances blown at Stamford bridge that was the real killer!
As an award for the best player whos won big titles, or simply the best player.
I can see both sides of the argument.
Personally I'd give it to CR7 should Real win the CL with him playing a big part. Failing that I wouldnt be against Messi winning it again because I think hes really carried his side this season and they'd have been in trouble much sooner without him.
I'm obviously a big fan of Messi but I feel sorry for him right now. He'll probably take most of the blame but when you look back to the chances blown at Stamford bridge that was the real killer!
Wayne Rooneys gonna win tbf......when he comes back and leads England to a win over Ukraine with 2 goals getting them through the group stage, then his sole goal vs Italy wins us a great tactical game, then scores 2 injury time goals vs Spain, but then gets 2 more goals and a glorious assist against Germany leading England to the Euro Championship.
Least thats how it went down on my FM. I even kept the screenshots, it was so miraculous.
Least thats how it went down on my FM. I even kept the screenshots, it was so miraculous.
Huh? If any of the above players played like the best player in the world in any given season then they deserve the award for being the best player in that season.
The only bizarre logic is your analogy about Messi winning the award in a season where he misses 5 months with injury. Of course that would rule him out of the running.
We're talking about the season just gone though (at least I assume we are, I'm never too sure of the timeframe of these poxy individual awards) and throughout this season Messi has consistently performed at a level better than any other player in the planet. Obviously, this is my opinion but it seems to be shared by the majority of people who have an objective opinion on the two players in the running.
Hence, if the award really is supposed to go the "best player in the world", it should go to Messi. If the award is supposed to go to the "best player in the world who also happens to play for a team that won at least one major trophy", then it should go to Ronaldo. Like I said, I don't have much time for individual honours in a team sport but the former definition seems much more appropriate if the intention is to recognise the best individual talent in the game.
The same discussion was being had in 2010 when Sneijder won the treble and got to the final of the World Cup and was instrumental in every part of that success and yet still, Messi won it, because he was the best player in the world even if he wasn't as successful.
Takes a penalty about as well as John Terry! 
Maradona was ineligible. It should go to the player who has performed best over the course of the season or year, regardless of what their team wins. Obviously a team with the player performing best in the entire world is likely to win trophies, but it's not necessarily the case. Of course, it's worth nothing that Messi played an integral part in Barca winning 3 trophies this season, and could well help them to a 4th.
How do you rate big game performances? If Messi was anonymous in both legs of the UCL Semis, surely that should go against him even if he was racking up Hat-Tricks against Granada, Ossasuna, Malaga, Racing, Mallorca, Plezen, Valencia, Atletico and Leverkusen.
Ah so you agreed with Ginola winning player of the year in 99, good to know, he was very sexy that year.
Beckham and Keane on the other hand, they only won the lot and also played brilliantly, although neither was as "talented" as Ginola.
My comment regarding Maradona was the fact that he'd have just won it every year by automatically being the World's best player, despite not really helping Barcelona for example to much success.
If you consider the two legs of the UCL semis the only big games worth considering then yeah, it would probably count against him. That would be mental, though.
All the more so when you bear in mind that his most likely rival for the award was considerably more anonymous in the first leg of his equivalent two fixtures.
Hence why I specifically mentioned him wining the EPOTY as in English Player of The Year, thought that was obvious considering the award you're talking about is called the Ballon d'Or. Apologies for the confusion.
I don't think anyone would of come to that conclusion to be honest....I just assumed Ballon d'Or as well as would anyone as that was essentially just an European Player of the Year then....especially considering the discussion being about it.
He delivered in the crucial game that handed Madrid the La Liga title. That alone counts for something. Let's see how he does this evening.
Hence the apologies you spaz. What a waste of your time that post was.
Yes, let's.
My point stands about the absurdity of implying that Messi hasn't delivered in big games on the basis of those two fixtures against Chelsea.
Agree with that. Before the Chelsea games was there a single person arguing that Messi hadn't performed exceptionally this season, or delivered in big games? No of course not, and those two games don't take anything away from what he has done this season either. However I do believe there is an argument to be made for Ronaldo winning it this season if he leads Madrid to a CL title, after leading them to a La Liga one. There really isn't much between them this season, both have performed well above anyone else for their teams, in both their league and the world, but if it's Ronaldo being the difference in the most important games to ensure honors, then is it such a shock to give it to him? Depending on how he does tonight and in the final of course.
Messi is a better player at the moment, regardless of the last few matches, but it doesn't mean Ronaldo can't have a better season.
Messi is a better player at the moment, regardless of the last few matches, but it doesn't mean Ronaldo can't have a better season.
Well, exactly. But that better season is much more about the teams they play for than individual ability. Which is why I think it should have no bearing on individual honours.
Well Messi's shitness against Chelski yesterday surely played a big part as to why they won't win the CL this year.
It was definitely a factor, yes.
Of course, Ronaldo could play just as shit tonight as he did in the first leg and Real still qualify. Which backs up the point I'm making about how it's possible to appraise individual performances outside the context of the achievements of the team.
It feels wrong to let Messi's individual performance be overshadowed by the triumphs of Real Madrid. Real Madrid being likely to win both the league title and the Champions League says more about Real Madrid vs Barcelona this season than it does Ronaldo vs Messi, and thus I don't see how winning those would put Ronaldo ahead?
Up until last night, this season had been all about Messi, and it seems most people still agree that Ronaldo, for all his brilliance, remains in the shadow of Messi. It will be interesting to see how that might change depending on how Ronaldo plays for the remaining of the season, especially if Real Madrid win the CL.
Up until last night, this season had been all about Messi, and it seems most people still agree that Ronaldo, for all his brilliance, remains in the shadow of Messi. It will be interesting to see how that might change depending on how Ronaldo plays for the remaining of the season, especially if Real Madrid win the CL.
So do you think Ginola was a worthy winner in 99 Pogue? I mean, he was superb that year, he did things no other player could do.
Did he deserve the award over Roy Keane?
To be honest, in '99 my football interest was at an all-time low ebb due to the combination of a keen interest in drugs and dance music and working crazy hours in hospitals. I can't say for certain I watched every United game and I certainly didn't watch many Spurs games. I'm going to have to take the fifth on that. If you'd asked me at the time I'd have almost certainly gone with Keane but I'd have been heavily biased.
I was 7 years old at the start of the 1998-99 season so I can't really speak to whether Ginola deserved it. If he performed better individually than Keane or Beckham or whoever then he deserved it. I don't argue on the basis of talent though, I argue on the basis of an individual's effectiveness, and Messi scores more goals, gets more assists and is generally more involved in the build-up with his team. There's an argument to be made over the ability of the players surrounding Messi and Ronaldo, the fact Barca dominate every game, but the success of the team shouldn't be relevant in my eyes.
In 2008, if the refereeing decisions had gone differently and United had lost at Wigan, and Terry had scored his penalty, meaning Chelsea win the Euro-Double, should Lampard have won the Ballon d'Or above Ronaldo? If not him then who?
If he was the best individual in all of those years then he deserved to win it.
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