Lionel Messi

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Pogue Mahone said:
I don't know how anyone can follow Messi's career over the course of this season and decide that he hasn't performed in crucial games. Or, at least, hasn't performed as well as Ronaldo in crucial games. Even this supposed low-point to his season - against Chelsea - featured no worse a performance in the first leg than Ronaldo put in against Bayern in Munich.

As Brwned already pointed out if you want to talk about attacking footballers at Madrid who are really turning it on at the business end of the CL then Benzema is arguably out-performing him. Which, in part, explains why Barca failed to beat Chelsea. The fact that nobody else at Barca is stepping up to score the goals instead, when he's not quite on his game.
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Err where did I say Messi has not performed in big matches throughout his career? I am strictly talking about this season.

Besides it is a combination of your from throughout a season and your contribution in the big matches at the end of it.

I have no idea why people have their knickers in twist. Messi is still the BPITW but it is very much conceivable that he won't win the golden ball now if Ronaldo performs in some of the matches he has to look forward to for Real and Portugal. That is all there is to it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It was definitely a factor, yes.

Of course, Ronaldo could play just as shit tonight as he did in the first leg and Real still qualify. Which backs up the point I'm making about how it's possible to appraise individual performances outside the context of the achievements of the team.
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I'd agree to an extent. Although I'm not sure there's too much difference in the way both of them influence their teams.

Take the El Classico as an example. The last one was about the first one in which Ronaldo played pretty well, it's also the first one for a long time they actually won.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To be honest, in '99 my football interest was at an all-time low ebb due to the combination of a keen interest in drugs and dance music and working crazy hours in hospitals. I can't say for certain I watched every United game and I certainly didn't watch many Spurs games. I'm going to have to take the fifth on that.
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:lol: Fair enough. I just wanted to try and see if your argument was consistent for these types of awards. I personally thought it was a joke when United won the treble and Rivaldo won it after United had done the treble in 99, or when Messi won it after Inter had done the treble. It shouldn't be "who is the most talented", it should be "who's individual performances have helped his team to achieve the most".
 
If Madrid go on and win the CL with Ronaldo having poor games in both remaining ones, then he clearly wouldn't be considered for the award anywhere near as much as if he'd perfomed heavily in them. If he does perform and leads them to a title, then that surely has to be recognized, as would Messi had he performed yesterday and taken Barcelona into the final.

Likewise Messi had been the difference in so many CL victories leading to their title last season, and was recognized as the difference, rather than it purely being about Barcelona as a team. I'm sure how he performed in those important games towards the end of the season and the classico's that made the difference in the league were taken into account for his award.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He has just proved why he is still far from Maradona and Pele's league.
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And as always the most ridiculous post award goes to............

FFS I could try to understand if this statement was made in general but to say that because he didn't play as well as he does for 2-3 games is total madness.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It was definitely a factor, yes.

Of course, Ronaldo could play just as shit tonight as he did in the first leg and Real still qualify. Which backs up the point I'm making about how it's possible to appraise individual performances outside the context of the achievements of the team.
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But it has already has been said that just Real winning the CL won't hand Ronaldo the award, it should not anyway. He obviously will have to perform in the final or both final and semi today. May even need a good performance in the Euros. If he does perform then the weight of those performances will be more than what Messi may do in coming matches including the cup final.
 
Pexbo said:
How do you rate big game performances? If Messi was anonymous in both legs of the UCL Semis, surely that should go against him even if he was racking up Hat-Tricks against Granada, Ossasuna, Malaga, Racing, Mallorca, Plezen, Valencia, Atletico and Leverkusen.
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Big game performances have to come into it, but he was excellent against Bayer Leverkusen in the knockout stages, he's scored a few goals and got a few assists against Real Madrid in various competitions this season. Two big games where he hasn't scored, they can't disqualify him, especially when Chelsea set up so incredibly defensively, Messi was part of a side who absolutely dominated the game, and it took an exceptional save from Cech to prevent him scoring by a distance of 6 inches. The only thing he did badly was miss the penalty.
 
kietotheworld said:
Big game performances have to come into it, but he was excellent against Bayer Leverkusen in the knockout stages, he's scored a few goals and got a few assists against Real Madrid in various competitions this season. Two big games where he hasn't scored, they can't disqualify him, especially when Chelsea set up so incredibly defensively, Messi was part of a side who absolutely dominated the game, and it took an exceptional save from Cech to prevent him scoring by a distance of 6 inches. The only thing he did badly was miss the penalty.
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Of course he is not disqualified. He is still the fav. to win the award but he has left a window open for Ronaldo to win it now. And I really don't think you can argue that he had a good performance against Chelsea in either leg. The first half chance was more of a miss than a save by Cech. He should have just chipped it like he has been doing all season. Then he had a good assist that's about it but that can't translate to a good performance alone.
 
Ronaldo's got the euros to make an impact too.

What will be interesting is to see what happens if Messi finishes top league scorer too.

I read on here last season CR7 should win it because goals mean everything and he finished with more league goals. Would those people back peddle if Messi over took him and also managed to break Gerd Muller's record?
 
crappycraperson said:
Of course he is not disqualified. He is still the fav. to win the award but he has left a window open for Ronaldo to win it now. And I really don't think you can argue that he had a good performance against Chelsea in either leg. The first half chance was more of a miss than a save by Cech. He should have just chipped it like he has been doing all season. Then he had a good assist that's about it but that can't translate to a good performance alone.
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I'm talking about the one in the second half that Cech tipped onto the woodwork. If Ronaldo is dominant tonight and in Munich, or he's awesome in the European Championships, then he has a shot at it, but I'd still make Messi heavy favourite on the basis of his performances already.
 
Ronaldo's performance in the CL final (if they get to it) will have little bearing on the destination of the golden ball. When 2012 ends and the individual trophies are given, the form players have shown at the start of NEXT season, the performances and success in the Euro and the team trophies won in the previous season (IE, this season) will be looked at more. Individual performances for the second half of 2011/12 will not mean that much because people won't remember them in such detail when they vote in December.

That's why unfavourable comparison's between Messi and Maradona or Pele, just because Messi had a poor week, are silly. Maradona and Pele had their fair share of stinkers. Pele had them in Brazil, so who in Europe even knew about them. Maradona's era was so different when it comes to the media, not nearly as more scrutiny. When Messi retires, this last week will be just a little dot on his career.
 
kietotheworld said:
Big game performances have to come into it, but he was excellent against Bayer Leverkusen in the knockout stages, he's scored a few goals and got a few assists against Real Madrid in various competitions this season. Two big games where he hasn't scored, they can't disqualify him, especially when Chelsea set up so incredibly defensively, Messi was part of a side who absolutely dominated the game, and it took an exceptional save from Cech to prevent him scoring by a distance of 6 inches. The only thing he did badly was miss the penalty.
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Leverkusen were awful. They offered no defensive effort. Says it all they were fighting over Messi's jersey before the second leg even.

And am I missing something? Both players have been brilliant this season, and until now Messi has been ahead, but the past few games give Ronaldo an opportunity to overtake him. Right?
 
adexkola said:
Leverkusen were awful. They offered no defensive effort. Says it all they were fighting over Messi's jersey before the second leg even.
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To be fair dude, Barcelona were defensively shocking against Madrid the other week but that shouldnt detract from the fact CR7 got the winner.
 
crappycraperson said:
Err where did I say Messi has not performed in big matches throughout his career? I am strictly talking about this season.

Besides it is a combination of your from throughout a season and your contribution in the big matches at the end of it.

I have no idea why people have their knickers in twist. Messi is still the BPITW but it is very much conceivable that he won't win the golden ball now if Ronaldo performs in some of the matches he has to look forward to for Real and Portugal. That is all there is to it.
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It all depends on what you take from it though.

I disagree with the notion that winning the CL would make Ronaldo more eligible for the trophy.

I do agree however, that the fact that he might have a CL final left to play, and the euros, will give him an outstanding stage to excel that Messi won't have and he could conceivably use that stage to leapfrog Messi.

Still, it would take a fair lot imo. Nobody is talking about Ronaldo being the best ever. A week ago, everyone was talking about how this season has been the one that has cemented Messi's place in the very highest echelon of football.
 
What's funny about this discussion and all the assumptions about what matters and what doesn't in here is that everyone of you probably follow football more closely and would be more qualified to vote than half the people who actually do have a say in the matter.
 
B19 said:
It all depends on what you take from it though.

I disagree with the notion that winning the CL would make Ronaldo more eligible for the trophy.

I do agree however, that the fact that he might have a CL final left to play, and the euros, will give him an outstanding stage to excel that Messi won't have and he could conceivably use that stage to leapfrog Messi.

Still, it would take a fair lot imo. Nobody is talking about Ronaldo being the best ever. A week ago, everyone was talking about how this season has been the one that has cemented Messi's place in the very highest echelon of football.
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For the last time, it is not just about Ron winning the CL or Euros, it is about him performing in the big matches in them. There is a big difference between the two.

I do agree that it is kinda sad that in his best ever season Messi has had a blip at such a bad time that this season might not be awarded as it should be. Football and awards are very much about narratives, even if many of Messi fanbois object, several do see Ronaldo as someone who can provided at least some sort of competition to Messi and if he upstages him in terms of performances in big matches this season, then that narrative will most probably carry him towards the individual awards. Messi getting something like 70+ goals may be just too hard to overlook though unless Ronaldo himself gets something like 65.

Messi's place among the best of the best was cemented last season it self BTW.
 
No one has a divine right to win a trophy every year, you have to earn it. Being the best player isn't just about conforming to what 'you' think an ideal player should look like, that's too subjective, you need a more objective criteria.

The most objective criteria is helping your team win the big trophies while you are absolutely crucial to your team's success e.g. by being the best player for that team.

IMO, a big component of being the 'BPITW' is actual success in terms of helping your team win trophies. The best player must be able to guide his team to glory as well.

It kind of reminds me of the argument that "A is the smartest kid at school even though he doesn't have the grades to prove it". You might have the talent and ability, but you need results at the end of the day.
 
reddevilcanada said:
No one has a divine right to win a trophy every year, you have to earn it. Being the best player isn't just about conforming to what 'you' think an ideal player should look like, that's too subjective, you need a more objective criteria.

The most objective criteria is helping your team win the big trophies while you are absolutely crucial to your team's success e.g. by being the best player for that team.

IMO, a big component of being the 'BPITW' is actual success in terms of helping your team win trophies. The best player must be able to guide his team to glory as well.

It kind of reminds me of the argument that "A is the smartest kid at school even though he doesn't have the grades to prove it". You might have the talent and ability, but you need results at the end of the day.
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Can't agree with that atall.

Means you could have Messi playing the scousers and in spite of being the most gifted footballer on the planet, he wouldnt get the credit because theres no way he could take the scousers to glory himself.
 
LTS10 said:
Can't agree with that atall.

Means you could have Messi playing the scousers and in spite of being the most gifted footballer on the planet, he wouldnt get the credit because theres no way he could take the scousers to glory himself.
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Well, Maradona did it with Napoli apparently.
 
reddevilcanada said:
No one has a divine right to win a trophy every year, you have to earn it. Being the best player isn't just about conforming to what 'you' think an ideal player should look like, that's too subjective, you need a more objective criteria.

The most objective criteria is helping your team win the big trophies while you are absolutely crucial to your team's success e.g. by being the best player for that team.

IMO, a big component of being the 'BPITW' is actual success in terms of helping your team win trophies. The best player must be able to guide his team to glory as well.

It kind of reminds me of the argument that "A is the smartest kid at school even though he doesn't have the grades to prove it". You might have the talent and ability, but you need results at the end of the day.
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It's not about being the most talented it's about being the best, that's Messi. Your analogy doesn't take into account that it's a team game, and so you can still be the smartest kid in the class without getting the best group grades, because the rest of your group aren't as good as one of the others. The smartest kid is still doing more individually than anyone else, it's just not bringing about as much success.
 
LTS10 said:
I'm not old enough to remember that with any great clarity. But from what I understand thats not exactly the case, and secondly, football today isn't the same.
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Football today isn't the same? True, back then you didn't get the protection from the referees that you get today, and doing it in the most defensively solid league makes Maradona's accomplishment at Napoli even more impressive.

The scousers aren't a bad team, they are arguably a top 6 team and in fact just a few seasons ago they competed with us for the title till the very end. I don't think Napoli were competing for the title soon before Maradona led them to glory the way the dippers were just a few seasons back.
 
What if Messi has a mixed season next year. Would it still be about giving it to the best player, which he still would be despite having an off season, or the player who had the best season?
 
Brwned said:
It's not about being the most talented it's about being the best, that's Messi. Your analogy doesn't take into account that it's a team game, and so you can still be the smartest kid in the class without getting the best group grades, because the rest of your group aren't as good as one of the others. The smartest kid is still doing more individually than anyone else, it's just not bringing about as much success.
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I agree that it's not about talent at all. The problem with defining 'the best' without an objective set of criteria is that it's too subjective. For some, the best is Ronaldo, others say it's Messi.

I completely agree that you have to take the team factor into account. And that's exactly why helping you team to trophies must be a major component of defining who is 'BPITW'.

For me, your contribution to your team's winning trophies is a factor that takes more or less weight depending on the gulf in the quality of the two players alleged to be 'the best in the world. It's not the only thing, but definitely a decisive factor when you have two players who are so closely matched up like Ronaldo and Messi. I'll give you an example.


If for example, Tottenham won the CL and the League and Bale played a massive part for Spurs in that accomplishment, I would still regard Messi as the best in the world, because Messi is simply miles ahead of Bale. But Messi isn't miles ahead of Ronaldo, the difference between the two is marginal, that's why it makes other more objective factors (i.e. your contribution to your team actually winning big trophies) decisive and more significant.
 
Brwned said:
It's not about being the most talented it's about being the best, that's Messi. Your analogy doesn't take into account that it's a team game, and so you can still be the smartest kid in the class without getting the best group grades, because the rest of your group aren't as good as one of the others. The smartest kid is still doing more individually than anyone else, it's just not bringing about as much success.
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Brwned

Are you actually implying that team Madrid are in some way propping Ronaldo up whilst team Barca are letting Messi down?

You realise that in the past two years, five of the six winners of a place in the top three players in the world play for Barcelona, that five of Messi's team mates last night were in the World Cup 2010 winning team and that the majority of Barca's team have been practicing the same footballing philosophy together since young childhood.

If so then that is my favourite new Messi excuse.
 
Hectic said:
What if Messi has a mixed season next year. Would it still be about giving it to the best player, which he still would be despite having an off season, or the player who had the best season?
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Diving in here, but those awards are about a season/year, and how well they've played, not who has been the best over the last four years, which Messi still would be. These awards aren't (supposed to be) handed out based on reputations, but who has been the best player in a given 12 months. Messi can't have an okay 12 months and beat Ronaldo to the award who hypothetically has had a brilliant 12 months. Ronaldo would then be the best player in the world, and should get the appropriate recognition and awards.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Brwned

Are you actually implying that team Madrid are in some way propping Ronaldo up whilst team Barca are letting Messi down?

You realise that in the past two years, five of the six winners of a place in the top three players in the world play for Barcelona, that six of Messi's team mates last night were in the World Cup 2010 winning team and that the majority of Barca's team have been practicing the same footballing philosophy together since young childhood.

If so then that is my favourite new Messi excuse.
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I'm saying that Madrid played better as a team than Barca this year, not that they're necessarily better players. For the last 3 consecutive years Xavi, Iniesta and Messi have been voted in the top four while they've also averaged two more a season in the top 15. Messi will still be top but it's unlikely both Xavi and Iniesta will make it in the top 5 and there's certainly a possibility they'll both miss out while Madrid will very possibly have 3 of the top 5 in the top 5 for the first time in decade. This, his supporting cast has been better. Most of Madrid's players have improved from last season while the opposite can be said of Barca's. Last year Barcelona performed better, this year Madrid performed better, and thus they got more trophies... it doesn't prove Ronaldo's performed better.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
Brwned

Are you actually implying that team Madrid are in some way propping Ronaldo up whilst team Barca are letting Messi down?

You realise that in the past two years, five of the six winners of a place in the top three players in the world play for Barcelona, that five of Messi's team mates last night were in the World Cup 2010 winning team and that the majority of Barca's team have been practicing the same footballing philosophy together since young childhood.

If so then that is my favourite new Messi excuse.
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"Messi excuse"? That's a new one to me. Didn't think a player with 60+ goals and 20+ assists (I think?) in a single season needed excuses tbh.
 
Iniesta, Xavi and Fabregas have been disappointing by their standards lately from what I've seen
 
Iniesta has actually been quite good. He did as much as he could against Chelsea, scored a goal. Great balance, didn't lose the ball. But I feel like he's been played a bit out of his best position.
Cesc has definitely been disappointing and Xavi has been below his standards. Whenever he got the ball he was usually next to Mascherano or Busquets. Because of Barcelona's style it got a bit crowded for them and there were no Scholes passes that split the Chelsea line for a brief moment. 15-20 yard passes at the most.
 
Missing a penalty in a CL semi final at the Nou Camp is something that really shouldn't happen.

Hmmm, I wonder if there are any other players who have missed a penalty in a CL semi final at the Nou Camp?
 
crappycraperson said:
I think he is saying they never had 3 poor games in a row when all 3 games were title/cup deciders or knock-outs.
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Correct


crappycraperson said:
Also a tough stick to beat Messi with but it does oddly take some shine off what is his best season yet.
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It isn't a stick to beat Messi. Rather it's a stick to beat up on those idiots who keep trying to put him in the class of Pele and Maradona way before he even peaks as a player. That particular comparison will start to make perfect sense when he hit his peak. For he can and will get much better than he is now.
 
LTS10 said:
Missing a penalty in a CL semi final at the Nou Camp is something that really shouldn't happen.

Hmmm, I wonder if there are any other players who have missed a penalty in a CL semi final at the Nou Camp?
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I pointed out earlier in this thread that Messi isn't very good at penalties and most his fanboys told me that I was just clutching at straws. Now we can all see how his penalty taking has cost Barca their final chance of winning a major trophy.

It makes a huge difference if your team go through anyway after you missed the penalty. Non?
 
peterstorey said:
Iniesta, Xavi and Fabregas have been disappointing by their standards lately from what I've seen
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Fabregas was awesome at the start of the year, he was far better than I thought he would be seeing as he was playing much further forward than he did at Arsenal, but I agree recently he has dropped off, as has most of the team.

They're all being played out of position, Iniesta especially is wasted on the left. Barca should go back to the central trio of Busquets sitting behind Xavi and Iniesta. Those three are more than capable of dominating possession.

There's no need to play so many players in the middle, especially when Messi keeps dropping deep as well, they have around 5 players all in the same area of the pitch.
 
Cal? said:
I pointed out earlier in this thread that Messi isn't very good at penalties and most his fanboys told me that I was just clutching at straws. Now we can all see how his penalty taking has cost Barca their final chance of winning a major trophy.

It makes a huge difference if your team go through anyway after you missed the penalty. Non?
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Not really.

They're poor finishing at Stamford Bridge and poor defending cost them too. Not just one penalty miss.

If Scholes hadnt gotten Utd through to the final in 2008 would you have blamed Ronaldo for the failure? Or what if Terry hadn't slipped in the final and Ronaldo#s penalty miss was the decider?

I dont think hes a great penalty kick taker, but he was unlucky and was pretty clinical with his previous 5 or 6.
 
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