There isn't or hasn't been a player born of any level who hasn't had 3 bad ones in a row.
Lionel Messi
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I simply mean excuses for him under performing, it is always someone else's fault.
I wouldn't accuse you of be facetious but surely you see a marked difference in his club form against his international form. Of course that is the Argentinian's fault for having a sub standard squad, the Argentinian fans fault for not loving him enough or Maradona's fault for being managerially inept.
Maradona against El Salvador, Italy and then Brazil in '82 perhaps? Maradona in the '86 qualifiers against Colombia and Peru x 2, with Maradona missing an absolute sitter against Colombia (no right foot) that could've cost them instant qualification to the WC as they failed to beat Peru in the next 2 crucial games? He only really got into his stride in the '90 World Cup in the semi finals much like Zidane in '98, and he was pretty poor in the group games with him particularly peripheral against Romania when they were very close to being put out of the tournament with Goycoechea keeping them in it.
Is it unfair to say '66 for Pele?
Is it unfair to say '66 for Pele?
This. The award is who has had the best season on an individual level in a team context. Not a who is the best player around right now award.
as always, it seems that maradona is the only player to win a league title with a second rate team
how about nottingham forest? who was their maradona when they won the europe league twice?
why maradona wining it in napoli makes it an outstanding accomplishment, when in fact a lot or "napolis" have won leagues around history?
maradona was a great player, despite winning with napoli, or had he never win the scudetto will change maradona's skills?
That's how I see it big dog.
Yep, Bulgaria and Portugal just kicked the shit out of him.
is that a fact? because i think you are way wrong
acording to wikipedia
The "Ballon d'Or", literally translated as "the golden ball" and often referred to as the European Footballer of the Year award, was an annual association football award. It was presented to the player who has been voted to have performed the best over the previous calendar year.
wheres the team context there?
i know, you'll come with a weird theory that will seem logic, but it wont be
and before you present that theory, take notice that the voters can vote for whoever the feck they want, so maybe you'd like them to vote for the player that did well in the context of a team, but you can't tell them how or why they should
can you?
i think not
Marcos you post actually supports his point. Award given to the player who has performed the best over the previous calendar year, not the player who is simply the best footballer, regardless of how they performed in that season.
then i don't understand the difference between being the best footballer and performing the best
for me both are the same and they never talk about "team context"
Like this scenario:
Take Messi and say Rooney next season.
If Messi has a sub-par season, yet Rooney has a phenomenal one, and scores 65 goals, obviously Rooney will be given the award. However, we already know Messi is a better player than Wayne.
Just because Messi is the best footballer alive right now, does not mean that each season he will perform better than anyone else, and if he doesn't, then he simply should not win the award. That was the basic scenario Red Torn responded to. And before anyone says, that is not to say Messi has not performed better than anyone else this season anyway, it's a hypothetical.
ok. i see what you mean, thank you
i agree, if messi is the better player, but he performs bellow par, he doesnt deserve the award
but again, if messi is the better player, he performs excellent -as he did this year- but his team fails him to win, then he deserves the award too
so what chief says is wrong
Not when you bring Ronaldo into the context, and the difference he could make.
And the point is taking into consideration the most important games, you can't argue that he performed yesterday, the biggest stage he had faced this year in the CL, or the other week against Madrid when it mattered most. Obviously it doesn't just come down to two or three games, but they must contribute surely.
And the point is taking into consideration the most important games, you can't argue that he performed yesterday, the biggest stage he had faced this year in the CL, or the other week against Madrid when it mattered most. Obviously it doesn't just come down to two or three games, but they must contribute surely.
i'm not talking about ronaldo or messi
i'm talking about wich kind of player should get the award, the "team context" that says chief had nothing to do when messi won it in 2010, did it?
I think you've misread his point, or I have.
he talked about team context, forgetting what happened in 2010
you can win everything -like iniesta, xavi etc-. but the vote can go to the best player, no matter what he won or what he didn't
you can win everything -like iniesta, xavi etc-. but the vote can go to the best player, no matter what he won or what he didn't
I'm not a fan of that. It should go to whoever had the best season, like the PFAs (ostensibly) do. Otherwise we might as well just give it to Messi for the next 10 years. What's the point?
Exactly! It doesn't make sense to do that, otherwise he can have seasons that aren't as good as other players, yet still be the given the award.
i don't think they should give it to a player for being -in paper- the best player, but for being the player who played best in a whole season
regardless of what he won or not
had we not win the champions in 2008, would have it been fair to deny the award to Ronaldo?
now, if we are going to give it only to players that won something meaningfull, be ready to repeat canavaro's bluff
Under those kind of auspices you could make claims for players like Ronaldinho still being one of the best in the world during the last few years of his career when he couldn't really be bothered. He wasn't having good seasons, but he was still "technically" one of the best. Then of course if Messi's injured for most of a season, do we just give it to him anyway? since he'd still be the best player in the world. It's a nonsense way of doing it.
And how else is Scott(y) Parker going to win it?
We'd have still won the PL, gotten to the final, and he'd still have been the golden boot winner (by a distance) All of those things contributed to him winning it. And he could well win all of those things again this year, Messi could possibly edge one (the golden boot). But if Ronaldo does get all those things, it's farcical to award it to Messi. Even if Messi manages to edge the golden boot (which is a close run thing between them) Ronnie's other contributions should tip him over IMO. Especially considering he'd only be 2nd in that anyway.
Couldn't agree more.
I won't waste time on any theory. The team context thing should be obvious to all that is why it won't say it on the award description. For football is a team, not individual sport.
Any way, If you believe the whole point of the award is to vote for the most accomplished player plying their trade currently we can as well cancel the awards, plus any voting and give the trophy to Messi for the next 10 seasons. After all in 2010 for example the award lost meaning.
i agree, but not because of what the team won, but because the way ronaldo played
Well yes, but one does help contribute to the other. We wouldn't have won the double without Ronnie that year, and Madrid sure as hell feck wouldn't this (if they do)...Likewise he wouldn't have won any doubles if he'd been playing at Stoke.
I agree that there should be more consideration to great players in shitter teams, but I think we're all resigned to the fact that the CL is now considered the ultimate barometer for the Ballon D'or. Or whatever it's called now. It's even usurped the World Cup.
I agree that there should be more consideration to great players in shitter teams, but I think we're all resigned to the fact that the CL is now considered the ultimate barometer for the Ballon D'or. Or whatever it's called now. It's even usurped the World Cup.
well, every great player had their best moments in great teams
it's a team sport and you need good enough parnters to perform well
but i still think messi deserved the 2010 award, despite not winning the world cup like xavi and iniesta or the champions like Sneijder
as ronaldo deserved it in 2008 regardless of winning the champions
he was a beast then, and only this year i see him back to that form
I see where you're coming from, but I don't like it as a criteria. Sneijder or Xavi should have won it in 2010 IMO. We all know Messi is the best player in the world. The awards should be given on achievements. No one would claim Fabio Cannavaro was the "best player in the world" in 2006, for example.
on achievements? you think? well, one can say that the achivements gives you the cups, while being the best, gives you the award
anyway, we can discuss this endlessly, but the fact is that the voters do it for whatever reason they see
if you could vote, you'd probably take on account, the championships won, while i wont
probably we would both be right and in 9 out of ten times, we would vote for the same player
Out of the CL and to far off to win La Liga. Messi is the best but today he's yesterdays news.
Yes it's skewed in favour of those playing for the top clubs and winning. But in general those at the top clubs are the best players. If done on achievements, you're at least picking from a group, or several groups (presuming one team didn't win everything)...If you're picking on technical merit alone. You're choosing from a group of one. Messi. All the time.
this year ronaldo has been great, messi played great in a team that was already built
ronaldo built the team, i may be wrong, but i think that real needed ronaldo to be where they are,more than barcelona needed messi
but i dont think there ever was two incredible great players like them both at the same time
we are blessed
in fact, when i watch barcelona -obviously not against us- i want them to win, the same happens when i watch real madrid
i want the future players to want to be like ronaldo and messi
In fairness to Messi he'd have a field day he if played against Bayern and they were as open as this.
we really don't know, we think but it's not a fact
i'd also say that if chelsea had play against real, the same way they did against barca, ronaldo would have scored a lot of long shot goals
Ronaldo and Zidane? Pele and Di Stefano? Cruyff and Beckenbauer? Platini and Maradona?
shut up
get out of this thread
and non of those players did it in the same league
only maradona and platini
shut up
Well that confirms it......................Spanish league is overrated. Robben for Ballon D'Or
Up for grabs now. Two best players in the world bottle their most important kicks of the season. Pscchhh. Hargreaves > Messaldo.
Are we now allowed to discuss Ronaldo v Messi in this thread?
Oh Cal?... It's all your fault.. Cal? is to Messi what Dumbstar is to United.
I'm worried about cal? i hope he's okay.
I don't know why Cal? does this. Setting himself up for a fall.
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