Lionel Messi

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Gazza said:
Eh? You want a list? Seeing as you started with two United players how about Cantona? He did well enough for France, but ultimately him and his team underperformed. The fact that he turned United around at the same time shows why your argument is flawed.
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We United fans love Eric, but has anyone ever tried to claim he's one of the best players in the world ever? Plenty of people have accused Eric of failing to perform in the CL with justification.

Generally when people talk about the best players, the usual suspect: Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Platini, Beckenbauer, etc, etc have all been able to transfer their club form to their national sides and vice versa.

Furthermore, if his Barca team mates can be so successful without him with Spain, it would appear the Barca clan are the real reason behind their phenomenal success rather than the other way round.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.
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You're the one talking about "proving yourself on different stages" - I'm not, because I don't see it as the most important criteria. if you want to, that's your choice!

If you want to talk about achievements in professional football, by all means ZIdane can claim the lot - if you want to talk about the best players to have played the game, I would suggest Messi's claim to that title is no weaker than Zidane's just because the the latter did it with 2 teams instead of 1. Makes no difference to me.
 
Cal? said:
Furthermore, if his Barca team mates can be so successful without him with Spain, it would appear the Barca clan are the real reason behind their phenomenal success rather than the other way round.
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How you could make such a judgment based on such a simplistic argument is laughable to me.
 
Gazza said:
How you could make such a judgment based on such a simplistic argument is laughable to me.
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I said it would appear that way, it's really quite simple.

Barcelona with Messi, conquers all, most his team mates play for Spain, without him, they still conquer all.
 
Gazza said:
You're the one talking about "proving yourself on different stages" - I'm not, because I don't see it as the most important criteria. if you want to, that's your choice!

If you want to talk about achievements in professional football, by all means ZIdane can claim the lot - if you want to talk about the best players to have played the game, I would suggest Messi's claim to that title is no weaker than Zidane's just because the the latter did it with 2 teams instead of 1. Makes no difference to me.
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The flawed logic was the talk about ability rather than performance not the criteria. The criteria I mentioned was obviously my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own, but I believe strongly in mine being correct in this case. I don't see why performing on a variety of stages and outside ones comfort zone should be a problem for the greatest player in the world. The greatest in any arena should be capable of it.
 
Cal? said:
I said it would appear that way, it's really quite simple.

Barcelona with Messi, conquers all, most his team mates play for Spain, without him, they still conquer all.
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It's that simple because it's an argument designed for the simple!

Anyway, I bet Spain would love to have Messi play in their team and they'd be even better with him.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
The flawed logic was the talk about ability rather than performance not the criteria. The criteria I mentioned was obviously my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own, but I believe strongly in mine being correct in this case. I don't see why performing on a variety of stages and outside ones comfort zone should be a problem for the greatest player in the world. The greatest in any arena should be capable of it.
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I think you jumped in on a point I was making to Cal: that you can not use the fact that Messi does not perform for Argentina as any kind of conclusive argument against his ability, because football is a team game and there are ultimately loads of factors contributing to the success of a team.

Never did I say that it is pure ability that is the criteria and not performance. That's why we have Messi in the Champions League. As I said, if you feel a player who performs at one of his clubs and then wins a World Cup on top is more deserving of your acclaim than Messi, that's your opinion... but I would never be as conceited to proclaim mine as the right one!
 
Gazza said:
I think you jumped in on a point I was making to Cal: that you can not use the fact that Messi does not perform for Argentina as any kind of conclusive argument against his ability, because football is a team game and there are ultimately loads of factors contributing to the success of a team.

Never did I say that it is pure ability that is the criteria and not performance. That's why we have Messi in the Champions League. As I said, if you feel a player who performed at one of his clubs and then win a World Cup on top is more deserving of Messi, that's your opinion... but I would never be as conceited to proclaim mine as the right one!
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You've never believed strongly in anything? I'm sure there are times you believe in something strongly and believe your criteria for judging it is more accurate than someone else's. No big deal. I respect other's opinions. I'm hardly one to run down someone else's.
 
Gazza said:
It's that simple because it's an argument designed for the simple!

Anyway, I bet Spain would love to have Messi play in their team and they'd be even better with him.
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I'm guessing Messi himself regrets not choosing Spain, and unlike the Giggs for England myth, Messi could have played for Spain.

So what if Spain would be better with Messi? The point is that they are as successful as they can be in the last few years, without Messi.

Gazza said:
I think you jumped in on a point I was making to Cal: that you can not use the fact that Messi does not perform for Argentina as any kind of conclusive argument against his ability, because football is a team game and there are ultimately loads of factors contributing to the success of a team.

Never did I say that it is pure ability that is the criteria and not performance. That's why we have Messi in the Champions League. As I said, if you feel a player who performs at one of his clubs and then wins a World Cup on top is more deserving of your acclaim than Messi, that's your opinion... but I would never be as conceited to proclaim mine as the right one!
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No one has argued against Messi's ability here. But it takes more than ability to be considered one of the best players ever, it might be a mental thing, but Messi clearly does not perform without his Barca team mates.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
You've never believed strongly in anything? I'm sure there are times you believe in something strongly and believe your criteria for judging it is more accurate than someone else's. No big deal. I respect other's opinions. I'm hardly one to run down someone else's.
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.... which is my point!
 
Cal? said:
I'm guessing Messi himself regrets not choosing Spain, and unlike the Giggs for England myth, Messi could have played for Spain.

So what if Spain would be better with Messi? The point is that they are as successful as they can be in the last few years, without Messi.



No one has argued against Messi's ability here. But it takes more than ability to be considered one of the best players ever, it might be a mental thing, but Messi clearly does not perform without his Barca team mates.
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This is an opinion, not fact. Right? Because we both agree you can't conclusively make such a statement just based on his performances for Argentina, right?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.
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The system enables them to keep possession at all times yes, as proven by the fact that; with both xavi AND iniesta out, Barcelona still record 65- 70% possesion a number of times, without their involvement.

Possession isn't an automatic advantage though, so i'm not sure it's a comfort zone as such. For all their midfield possession I have never seen Spain dismantle any big side before, I have lost count the amount of times Barca do it though. An off form David villa at the world cup and Spain most likely would have won feck all.

Argentina always dominate possession anyway, they had the second or third highest possession after spain at the world cup for example (they had more possession against Germany than Spain did)

So there isn't THAT of much of a shift from a possession perspective, an additional 10% possession translates to roughly 5 mins more in each half.

So while I agree with your overall sentiment, I disagree with the bit in bold. Just because they dominate possession does not mean it's a comfort zone. Arsenal of the past 5 years being the prime example of this.​
 
Who the hell is still ghosted in this thread?
 
Gazza said:
This is an opinion, not fact. Right? Because we both agree you can't conclusively make such a statement just based on his performances for Argentina, right?
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Of course it's an opinion, it's all about opinions, but his performances for Argentina makes it a very easy conclusion to draw.

Inspectah deck said:


The system enables them to keep possession at all times yes, as proven by the fact that; with both xavi AND iniesta out, Barcelona still record 65- 70% possesion a number of times, without their involvement.

Possession isn't an automatic advantage though, so i'm not sure it's a comfort zone as such. For all their midfield possession I have never seen Spain dismantle any big side before, I have lost count the amount of times Barca do it though. An off form David villa at the world cup and Spain most likely would have won feck all.

Argentina always dominate possession anyway, they had the second or third highest possession after spain at the world cup for example (they had more possession against Germany than Spain did)

So there isn't THAT of much of a shift from a possession perspective, an additional 10% possession translates to roughly 5 mins more in each half.

So while I agree with your overall sentiment, I disagree with the bit in bold. Just because they dominate possession does not mean it's a comfort zone. Arsenal of the past 5 years being the prime example of this.​
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A slightly better referee at Stamford Bridge and a less convincing dive and roll routine by Alves and Barca wouldn't have any CL in the last 3 seasons.
 
Cal? said:
Of course it's an opinion, it's all about opinions, but his performances for Argentina makes it a very easy conclusion to draw.
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But even then it's not, it is fraught with complications:

Messi has only played for 2 teams. So because one team does well and the other doesn't you say he can only play well for 1 team. Please tell me you can see why that's a specious argument.
 
Gazza said:
But even then it's not, it is fraught with complications:

Messi has only played for 2 teams. So because one team does well and the other doesn't you say he can only play well for 1 team. Please tell me you can see why that's a specious argument.
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That's all very well, but he has played for Argentina under quite a few managers, so either those handful of manager are all grossly incompetent, or Messi is extremely inflexible to any alternative to Tika Taka.
 
Cal? said:
That's all very well, but he has played for Argentina under quite a few managers, so either those handful of manager are all grossly incompetent, or Messi is extremely inflexible to any alternative to Tika Taka.
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Same players though

If Messi played for United, do you think we would win the league? And if yes, would that be enough to change your mind? Excuse the hypothetical.
 
Gazza said:
Same players though

If Messi played for United, do you think we would win the league? And if yes, would that be enough to change your mind? Excuse the hypothetical.
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Considering I think we'd win the league with or without him, that doesn't really prove anything.

However, if he played for United and won the CL for us, I might change my mind.

* Note, I never used you-know-who tearing up 2 different league as a reason to rate him higher.
 

Didn't make it. Got no claim to it. But its a well done video I think we'll all agree?
 
The greatest player of all times, and alot of people are afraid to say it. Magical footballer, they'll be talking about him forever. And there's no sign of him stopping anytime soon. We're lucky to be in the generation that has him
 
Don16 said:
The greatest player of all times, and alot of people are afraid to say it. Magical footballer, they'll be talking about him forever. And there's no sign of him stopping anytime soon. We're lucky to be in the generation that has him
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Saying something as fact, doesn't make it true. People aren't afraid to say it, they don't agree with it. For most, it takes more than playing for the best team in the world by a margin to prove you are the greatest ever. Until he can take Argentina to a world cup, he won't even be considered the best by fans in Argentina let alone the rest of the world.
 
marchi-91 said:
Saying something as fact, doesn't make it true. People aren't afraid to say it, they don't agree with it. For most, it takes more than playing for the best team in the world by a margin to prove you are the greatest ever. Until he can take Argentina to a world cup, he won't even be considered the best by fans in Argentina let alone the rest of the world.
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True, but demanding him to win a world cup is a bit much I think. Football had changed massively since 86, and the best football in the world (in my
opinion anyway) is being played in the champions league, where messi has been churning out performance after performance for the past 6 years consistently. I personally hold that in higher regards than a 3 month tournament every four years. But obviously that's just my opinion.
 
Don16 said:
True, but demanding him to win a world cup is a bit much I think. Football had changed massively since 86, and the best football in the world (in my
opinion anyway) is being played in the champions league, where messi has been churning out performance after performance for the past 6 years consistently. I personally hold that in higher regards than a 3 month tournament every four years. But obviously that's just my opinion.
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3 week you mean.

Fully agree.
 
Don16 said:
True, but demanding him to win a world cup is a bit much I think. Football had changed massively since 86, and the best football in the world (in my
opinion anyway) is being played in the champions league, where messi has been churning out performance after performance for the past 6 years consistently. I personally hold that in higher regards than a 3 month tournament every four years. But obviously that's just my opinion.
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Look at the team he's on. Best team in the world by far. That's why ppl want to see him do it with a team that isn't the best team in the world.
 
ecantona7 said:
Look at the team he's on. Best team in the world by far. That's why ppl want to see him do it with a team that isn't the best team in the world.
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I see what you mean, but I just think if you look at the individual player, I think it's unfair to retort back to the players around him, wether positively or negatively.
 
marchi-91 said:
Saying something as fact, doesn't make it true. People aren't afraid to say it, they don't agree with it. For most, it takes more than playing for the best team in the world by a margin to prove you are the greatest ever. Until he can take Argentina to a world cup, he won't even be considered the best by fans in Argentina let alone the rest of the world.
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Agreed. Surely among the best ever but to be THE best ever, he has to do it with argentina. They arent a shite footballing nation so its not an impossible ask anyways.
 
The question with Messi is that would of he been able to do it with another team. People are rightly sceptical because he's playing in a Barca side, with players he's been with since a young boy, a team that heavily caters for his talents and a team that's best in the world by far.

You just need to look at his performances for Argentina, and the huge amount of criticism he gets from his home country, by both public and media to know why a lot of people are not ready to call him the best ever.
 
marcosdeto said:
Pele played in the best team in the world, Cruyff too, maradona too, best too, distefano too

but messi has to make it in rayo vallecano

right
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The idea that Messi must imitate in order to surpass or achieve par with Maradona is just absurd.

The best of the best players have generally always played in the best teams and then lifted them further. Messi is lifting a phenomenal team to what is considered one of the best teams ever.

Maradona going to Napoli was a one off. It was a special venture that adds to his legend no doubt, but it doesn't mean that all who wish to compare to him must do something similar.

At the end of the day, you look at the football he played and decide if he was better or worse. Simples.
 
B19 said:
The idea that Messi must imitate in order to surpass or achieve par with Maradona is just absurd.

The best of the best players have generally always played in the best teams and then lifted them further. Messi is lifting a phenomenal team to what is considered one of the best teams ever.

Maradona going to Napoli was a one off. It was a special venture that adds to his legend no doubt, but it doesn't mean that all who wish to compare to him must do something similar.

At the end of the day, you look at the football he played and decide if he was better or worse. Simples.
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exactly
 
Maradona didn't win the champions league (or its equivalent) during his whole career. Messi won it 3 times (or 2 if you like). Does that make Maradona less than Messi for that reason only?

Another question: If we take Messi (and only Messi) away from Barcelona in the last 3 years, do you think they would have still won what they won?
 
Danny1982 said:
Maradona didn't win the champions league (or its equivalent) during his whole career. Messi won it 3 times (or 2 if you like). Does that make Maradona less than Messi for that reason only?

Another question: If we take Messi (and only Messi) away from Barcelona in the last 3 years, do you think they would have still won what they won?
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I think theyd still have beaten us in last years final. They'd probably still be better than real. But its impossible to say what they would have won exactly.

But in the end every top player takes their teams up a level. Henry did it at arsenal, ronaldo with us, ronaldhinio at barca etc etc.

In the end these things are very subjective and its impossible to forge a criteria as much.
 
B19 said:
At the end of the day, you look at the football he played and decide if he was better or worse. Simples.
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I dont think you do tbh and I dont think most think in that way either

There's criteria and there's circumstances and that is what helps to give a player a particular status and to ignore that is ridiculous.

Honestly if I look at only one aspect of the game different from now to then it's enough for me to judge Messi as inferior to Maradona and that's in the application of the tackling laws of the game. Maradona's era in respect of defensive play was imo on a completely different level to what we have now and what confronts Messi on a weekly basis.

Wether Messi could have withstood the purely physical barrage from defenders that Maradona had to contend with is debateable. He may well have been able to but imo I doubt it as physically Maradona was a very animal from Messi

Love Messi tho, great great player
 
Barcelona would have still been up there even if they didn't have Messi, but whether they would've won all they've won or not is very subjective. It could be argued that without him, Real Madrid may have a better side. There's no questioning the strength of their midfield, however I'm not sure how their attack would cope without him. An attack of Pedro, Villa and Sanchez would certainly be strong, but it wouldn't really be formiddable.

It's all very subjective and pedantic, though. At the end of the day, they do have Messi, so why ask the question?
 
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