Lionel Messi

[Pogue Mahone]

Also worth bearing in mind that GH supplementation is replacing a perfectly normal hormone in someone who is genetically deficient. Even during treatment, the GH levels in the blood remain lower than they would be for someone who wasn't deficient in the first place.

The whole point of cheating by taking steroids (or GH) is to increase the levels in your system well above what is normal. The two aren't comparable.

 

[B20]

I do admire Messi and the seemingly superhuman powers he has on the football field. BUT... he did take growth hormones in his youth. How this is different from doping, taking steriods etc... , the line is very hard to draw. He is special, but was he born special or made special.

 

[Zen]

David Villa wouldn't get 50-60 goals if Messi was out....and well you don't even have to do much digging to prove this....Messi is about 1gpa with them....and with them at Spain without Messi...Villa has been about 0.7gpa....which over the course of a 50 game season is 15 goals, and he'd have less assists, it's not exactly close.

Theres also more whipping boys in international qualis than there is in La Liga however you much you like to think it's the weakest league ever.

 

[kouroux]

David Villa wouldn't get 50-60 goals if Messi was out....and well you don't even have to do much digging to prove this....Messi is about 1gpa with them....and with them at Spain without Messi...Villa has been about 0.7gpa....which over the course of a 50 game season is 15 goals, and he'd have less assists, it's not exactly close.

Theres also more whipping boys in international qualis than there is in La Liga however you much you like to think it's the weakest league ever.

You must mean "35 goals"

 

[Zen]

Yes.....which is why the difference would be 15 goals.....you just passed your a-level maths, congrats.

 

[kouroux]

Sorry, i thought you weren't talking about the difference (well tbh you didn't mention it )

 

[Danny1982]

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I don't really agree, could you say the same for Ronaldo at Madrid, Rooney at United etc? All teams have one player they rely on more than others.

You couldn't. Because none of them play in team that uses the perfect footballing system ala Barca. Messi in comparison does. As I keep saying repeatedly, its not by coincidence that at international level he doesn't look as superior to every body in the game as he does at club level. Even when he and Argentina are playing well. Barca's system is something else. To compound it all they have players who have been in it since they were kids!

This idea that Messi is the whole cake at Barca is just pain wide of the mark IMO. Helps them greatly to get first place. But sans him they'd still get it because they are that darn good. Some one else would step into his shoes to score teams silly.

I hope we never have to experience any of these players being out for 8 months etc but it would be interesting to see just how it would effect them

I agree

Personally i think Messi plays to pivotal a role for Barca not to massively effect the team if he was absent. No doubt they would still represent a tremendous side but he could easily be the difference between winner and runner up.

I honestly doubt it. The funny thing about having great players is that when they are around, their teams almost always become heavily reliant on them no matter how deep and balanced the side is! But if they were ever to be absent for an extended period, you would be surprised how good their team mates actually are sans them.

For me I just think its wonderful a player like Messi has the chance to be in a team that gives him the optimum performance platform for an entire career span. Most other greats never had that. I mean, just think of what a fat Ronaldo for example, would have done in a Barca team of this ilk. For that reason alone I hope he never ever gets injured for long. I don't mind seeing a player milk his potential to the max when the chance presents itself. I'm only waiting and hoping his Argentina adventure falls in place to complete the picture.

 

[kouroux]

Messi is the piece that illuminates the Barca football style.They would still be a good and competitive team without him but with him they're something else.A much more potent attacking team

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Messi is the piece that illuminates the Barca football style.They would still be a good and competitive team without him but with him they're something else.A much more potent attacking team

Sans him they'd be a machine that batters opponents silly. (as in they'd just win by being superior). With him they dance you dizzy in elegant fashion.

 

[B20]

But sans him they'd still get it because they are that darn good. Some one else would step into his shoes to score teams silly.

But if they were ever to be absent for an extended period, you would be surprised how good their team mates actually are sans them.

Sans him they'd be a machine that batters opponents silly.

 

[Inspectah deck]

David Villa wouldn't get 50-60 goals if Messi was out....and well you don't even have to do much digging to prove this....Messi is about 1gpa with them....and with them at Spain without Messi...Villa has been about 0.7gpa....which over the course of a 50 game season is 15 goals, and he'd have less assists, it's not exactly close.

Theres also more whipping boys in international qualis than there is in La Liga however you much you like to think it's the weakest league ever.

This is all in theory but it certainly is closer to the truth than others saying he will score 50 in a season for them without any basis. I should add that that the 0.7 goals/game figure is Villa's record since 2008 (with pretty much the same midfield behind Messi).

It makes even more sense when you see that the 35 goal tally projected is exactly what Eto'o got in 08/09 (a striker of similar quality to Villa).

Considering the fact that Messi gets closer to 15 assists more than Villa in a season then you are looking at a 30 goal reduction (in a 50 game season) in their team. That is a hell of a lot of goals.

And that is with Villa,a striker that has been more prolific than Van persie and Rooney over their careers.
​

 

[Varun]

I'm sorry I broke your heart, but I really don't love you.. It wouldn't have worked out anyway.. Get over it, and move on...

Did you cry when Messi texted you that?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

For a Messi-less Barca, you only have to look at how Spain play, and they don't look anything as "special" as the current Barca do.

They'd still be a very good side, but somewhat lack the cutting edge that Messi provides.

Spain don't have the weapon that is Danny Alves, play Villa wide, play Xabi Alonso in center midfield rather than Iniesta, who plays for them out wide. Meaning Spain couldn't stretch sides the way Barca does.

I'm willing to bet a Barca with Sanchez and Pedro wide and Villa in the middle would score about as much as they do with Messi round. The difference is they'd share the goals more amongst the front 3 like Barca did when Henry, Eto'oo and Messi were a trio. Because they'd share all the responsibility that Messi takes on himself when he is around.

 

[Gio]

The best I've seen Spain play for a long time was when they switched to a Barca-esque 4-3-3. The seven Barcelona players adopting the same role as they do for their clubs, Silva in Messi's position. The only difference was the full-back threat came from the left in Jordi Alba rather than the right, but it had the same impact either way.

 

[Sewelly The Geordie]

The best I've seen Spain play for a long time was when they switched to a Barca-esque 4-3-3. The seven Barcelona players adopting the same role as they do for their clubs, Silva in Messi's position. The only difference was the full-back threat came from the left in Jordi Alba rather than the right, but it had the same impact either way.

To be fair though, that was against Scotland.

 

[Cal?]

Another man of the match performance by the greatest player in the world ever ever, leading his national side to an amazing home draw against the incredible Bolivia.

or not...

Does anyone still want to argue against the fact that he doesn't perform without the Barca clan?

 

[Gazza]

Another man of the match performance by the greatest player in the world ever ever, leading his national side to an amazing home draw against the incredible Bolivia.

or not...

Does anyone still want to argue against the fact that he doesn't perform without the Barca clan?

Did you watch Bosnia's match today? Was against Portugal.

 

[Godfather]

Good lord not again

 

[adexkola]

Did you watch Bosnia's match today? Was against Portugal.

You'll get canned by Hectic if you go down that road

 

[7even]

The whole point of cheating by taking steroids (or GH) is to increase the levels in your system well above what is normal.

The interesting point in this case is how do anybody know, except for his doctor and the one's who paid for the treatment, how much GH he took? And for how long?

We can argue all night long who's right or wrong but GH increase your strength and speed and that's the motive to overdose them, and that's the problem why there are people who are suspicious. But just like Lance Armstrong, everybody is innocent until they are proven guilty.

 

[Gazza]

You'll get canned by Hectic if you go down that road

What ronaldo is that then?

 

[Cal?]

Did you watch Bosnia's match today? Was against Portugal.

No. I watched most of Ukraine v Germany and the end of Argentina v Bolivia.

Portugal games tend to be extremely boring.

 

[Gazza]

No. I watched most of Ukraine v Germany and the end of Argentina v Bolivia.

Portugal games tend to be extremely boring.

You find Argentina games much more exciting, right?

 

[Cal?]

You find Argentina games much more exciting, right?

Not really, but after the Germany game finished, there wasn't anything else on.

Generally good international teams to watch: Germany, Spain, Japan (only if they play someone half decent)...

 

[Gazza]

Not really, but after the Germany game finished, there wasn't anything else on.

Generally good international teams to watch: Germany, Spain, Japan (only if they play someone half decent)...

Japan? Wouldn't know. Germany and Spain are definitely better than good, Spain in particularly have great players in every position. Either way I'm pretty sure it takes a good overall team to get the most out of its best players and vice versa, so the fact that Argentina or Portugal aren't pulling up trees isn't a definitive statement on the abilities of their individual best players.

 

[Cal?]

Japan? Wouldn't know. Germany and Spain are definitely better than good, Spain in particularly have great players in every position. Either way I'm pretty sure it takes a good overall team to get the most out of its best players and vice versa, so the fact that Argentina or Portugal aren't pulling up trees isn't a definitive statement on the abilities of their individual best players.

Not saying it's definitive at all (it would be ridiculous to argue against the fact that Messi is one of the best players in the world), just that I personally think that if Messi is to be seriously considered as one of the best ever, he needs to do something for his national side, QF exit after QF exit in not only the WC but also the Copa America is simply not good enough.

Getting held at home by the likes of Bolivia is certainly not you expect of him and the likes of Higuain.

As for Japan, well, they are on TV quite often here in Hong Kong, and they're the best to watch out of all the Asian sides.

 

[Gazza]

Not saying it's definitive at all (it would be ridiculous to argue against the fact that Messi is one of the best players in the world), just that I personally think that if Messi is to be seriously considered as one of the best ever, he needs to do something for his national side, QF exit after QF exit in not only the WC but also the Copa America is simply not good enough.

Getting held at home by the likes of Bolivia is certainly not you expect of him and the likes of Higuain.

As for Japan, well, they are on TV quite often here in Hong Kong, and they're the best to watch out of all the Asian sides.

But you have to apply your own logic consistently, in which case all the best teams+players in the world have had shit results against mediocre opposition

I disagree with the importance you place on international football in determining a player's ability, but the debate is too long and pointless to enter into.

I just think Messi is clearly one of the best to have played the game, and to argue on his exact standing in the game is a much of a muchness.

 

[Cal?]

But you have to apply your own logic consistently, in which case all the best teams+players in the world have had shit results against mediocre opposition

I disagree with the importance you place on international football in determining a player's ability, but the debate is too long and pointless to enter into.

I just think Messi is clearly one of the best to have played the game, and to argue on his exact standing in the game is a much of a muchness.

That would be true IF this was a shock result, but look through Argentina's result in the last few years? They've had one of the best squads outside Spain in the world for years and ALWAYS flattered to deceive, getting upstaged by minnow after minnow.

I'm not saying he should be winning all the games on his own for Argentina, but you certainly wouldn't expect such a poor record down the years.

It's all very well talking about a player's ability, and he's certainly proven that beyond doubt for Barca, but he has not done so, ever, for Argentina, despite some of the best attacking players in the world (outside Spain). Gives a lot of fuel to the argument that he can't perform without the Barca clan.

 

[Gazza]

That would be true IF this was a shock result, but look through Argentina's result in the last few years? They've had one of the best squads outside Spain in the world for years and ALWAYS flattered to deceive, getting upstaged by minnow after minnow.

I'm not saying he should be winning all the games on his own for Argentina, but you certainly wouldn't expect such a poor record down the years.

It's all very well talking about a player's ability, and he's certainly proven that beyond doubt for Barca, but he has not done so, ever, for Argentina, despite some of the best attacking players in the world (outside Spain). Gives a lot of fuel to the argument that he can't perform without the Barca clan.

I think Argentina have struggled for loads of reasons. Messi may be one of them. But I don't think it diminishes his abilities at all, it just means that's one team that doesn't make the most of his abilities. Their loss, since he's clearly an amazing player.

I prefer to assess players individually and not by a list of requirements that is set in stone; that is, I don't see why I need to have Messi prove his genius at a World cup game to know he's one of the best players in the world. I've seen him play. Same goes for Torres, Rooney, and even Ronaldo. I don't see internationals as the pinnacle of football, maybe that's why.

 

[Cal?]

I think Argentina have struggled for loads of reasons. Messi may be one of them. But I don't think it diminishes his abilities at all, it just means that's one team that doesn't make the most of his abilities. Their loss, since he's clearly an amazing player.

I prefer to assess players individually and not by a list of requirements that is set in stone; that is, I don't see why I need to have Messi prove his genius at a World cup game to know he's one of the best players in the world. I've seen him play. Same goes for Torres, Rooney, and even Ronaldo. I don't see internationals as the pinnacle of football, maybe that's why.

I don't either, but the point here is not that World Cups are the be all and end all, but Messi's inability to function outside Barca.

The best players in the world down the years have all been able to play in different teams and show their worth. Zidane did it for Juve, Real & France, Maradona led Napoli to unprecedented success as well as Argentina, Ronaldinho for Barca & Brazil, etc, etc... Even you-know-who, whilst not being great for his country, has done more than Messi for Argentina.

 

[Gazza]

I don't either, but the point here is not that World Cups are the be all and end all, but Messi's inability to function outside Barca.

The best players in the world down the years have all been able to play in different teams and show their worth. Zidane did it for Juve, Real & France, Maradona led Napoli to unprecedented success as well as Argentina, Ronaldinho for Barca & Brazil, etc, etc... Even you-know-who, whilst not being great for his country, has done more than Messi for Argentina.

You can not suggest Messi is unable to function outside of Barcelona, and you certainly can't if your only evidence is his performances with Argentina. For all the great players who did it for several clubs and for their country, there are plenty who only played or played notably for one club and a few who didn't do it on the international stage.

Your argument is arbitrary as well - you're basically saying Messi could win the next 10 CLs for Barca and he still wouldn't be able on par with Ronaldinho in your eyes, despite being far more consistent over a longer period.

 

[Cal?]

You can not suggest Messi is unable to function outside of Barcelona, and you certainly can't if your only evidence is his performances with Argentina. For all the great players who did it for several clubs and for their country, there are plenty who only played or played notably for one club and a few who didn't do it on the international stage.

Your argument is arbitrary as well - you're basically saying Messi could win the next 10 CLs for Barca and he still wouldn't be able on par with Ronaldinho in your eyes, despite being far more consistent over a longer period.

Who are these players then?

Don't say Giggs or Best, I think you'd agree there is a significant difference in quality between their national sides to Argentina.

 

[Chrisjn]

I think Messi will go down as the best of all time once his career is over.

What he does with the ball is unparalleled. He's 24 for Christ sake. He's scoring 40+ goals a season consistently. Battering teams, humiliating players, not because he's a narcissist, but because he's so good, it's what he does.

He manipulates the ball ridiculously. He has a good chance of winning a world cup before his career is over anyway.

The fact of the matter is, times have changed it's all about the CL these days, and this will be noted well when people look back, and it looks like he's going to notch up a few more of those too.

If he can continue doing what he's doing now for the next 6 years, there's no doubt he has to be up there with the greatest.

 

[Gazza]

Who are these players then?

Don't say Giggs or Best, I think you'd agree there is a significant difference in quality between their national sides to Argentina.

Eh? You want a list? Seeing as you started with two United players how about Cantona? He did well enough for France, but ultimately him and his team underperformed. The fact that he turned United around at the same time shows why your argument is flawed.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Eh? You want a list? Seeing as you started with two United players how about Cantona? He did well enough for France, but ultimately him and his team underperformed. The fact that he turned United around at the same time shows why your argument is flawed.

No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.

Spot on

 

[reddevilcanada]

No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.

Good post. It's one thing winning everything under the sun with probably the greatest team at the club level ever. unfortunately, with the monopoly that Barca has at the moment - being miles ahead of everyone else -, winning 50 trophies in such an already amazing side is not the true measurement of his credential as the greatest ever.

He has to lead Argentina to at least one world cup playing a pivotal role to be considered the greatest ever, which shouldn't be that tall an order given Argentina is always among the favorites at world-cups.

 

[jojojo]

So we're reframing the eternal question, "but could he do it on a wet night against Stoke?" as "but could he do it on a wet night for Stoke?"*




* Not that I think Argentina actually = Stoke

 

[Varun]

No its yours that's flawed. You keep mentioning how the world cup is not an indicator of ability. But the discussion of the greatest has never been about ability. It'd about performing on a variety of stages, inside and outside your comfort zone, one of which includes the world cup which remains the most prestigious prize in football despite a fall in quality. Thing is, when players prove themselves on different stages they prove that they aren't reliant on doing it while in their comfort zones. The fact that zidane was able to do it at club level (and two clubs) and then lift his national side, a bunch of players he's not used to playing week in week out with, to national glory and how, shows that the circumstances for him were irrelevant.

Messi is without doubt the best today. But in principle I can't accept him as the best ever because just doing it in a team that is basically the world champions plus him isn't enough. He's grown up at the club and is in a team that keeps the ball 70 percent of the time regardless of his involvement. International football is his test outside his comfort zone. He has to pass it.

Good post. Messi can never really be called the greatest ever unless he performs elsewhere. Argentina in a WC being elsewhere here.