Pedantry is the name of this thread
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter cesc's_mullet
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Without Messi, they may just play like Spain do in midfield and attack with Iniesta on the wing/wide playing, replacing Alonso with Fabregas, or by moving Xavi but in midfield alongside Busquets and pushing Fabregas foward.
Simply not true...
1. Maradona played for Napoli and Argentina, nowhere near the best teams in that era,
2. Barca's players seem capable of winning everything (WC & Euro) without him anyway, so perhaps it's Xavi making him look better than he is.
Ronaldo will be considered better if he wins a WC for Portugal...
Still think Ronaldo will be considered better than Maradona if he wins a trophy with Portugal?
And no, Ronaldo won't be considered better if he wins it with Portugal. It's a team sport and you have some weird tendency to compare players by trophies.
Yes, the Barca players managed okay without him to win the WC & Euro.
If its the WC at the Maracana, yes!!
I'm sorry, actually I'm not, but only an idiot will call any footballer GOD.
Messi has only played for the best team in the world.
When were Santos the best team in the world?
All the players you mentioned played for more than one club. That's what people are referring too really.
I agree with that statement that he can't be considered the worlds greatest ever. Don't see why he needs that label anyway. Wait til he retires. Let's just be content with worlds best player at the moment shall we.
Ronaldo can get false tits and shave his legs and he'll still never be within farting distance of Messi.
yes, is the best team in the world because he plays there
when pele played with them
Best (us), Pele (Santos), Distefano (Real Madrid) Maradona (Napoli) excelled in one team and -only in cuyff case- in two (ajax and barca)
Actually, the national teams as well for Pele, Cruyff, Maradona and Di Stefano did excellently in South America with the teams there.
Maradona was good with every team he played for before Napoli. Best only played for United but his name was Best.
Maradona was good with every team he played for before Napoli. Best only played for United but his name was Best.
Who a player plays for shouldn't be the main factor in this sort of debate. Obviously, it has to be taken into account, but basically, some here are saying that as long as Messi plays for a dominant Barcelona side, he cannot be the greatest of all-time. That isn't the case. He still can be.
You're the biggest fanboy of a footballer that I've ever come across. It's a shame that Ronaldo love must be connected with hatred for the best talent of the last 20 years.
Indeed. There's so much between them it's unfunny when you consider that Ronaldo's comfortably second best footballer right now. Messi is just a different level.
Of course he could be, but the argument would have a lot more weight if he did it for a side who don't dominate every game they play.
Eloquently put.
There is just no comparing the two. Messi is one of the greatest of all time. Already.
Distefano? not quite, Maradona did very well in 1986 and in 1990, but in 1982 was a total dissapointment
and you can't compare argentinian football in the 80s and now, there's an enormous difference
Argentina's problem at the last World Cup was horrendous defence, poor manager with no tactical awareness and midfield that was unable to retain the ball - and it was visible in one game that they lost 4-0 to a well organized side. There was nothing Messi could've done to prevent this.
Would they be the same team without Lionel Messi though? Yes, they would still dominate games in the midfield, but they would be nowhere near as clinical in their attack. If that's the most people have against them, then it's almost a way of showing how good a footballer he is.
Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't it is impossible to say with authority unless he leaves. Worth bearing in mind that the core of that side won the World Cup without him though. I want to be clear about what people mean when they say he can't be the best player unless he leaves - being at Barcelona does not make him a worse player, but being at Barcelona gives him advantages that no other player has, which makes it more difficult to compare him with any other player fairly. Seeing him for a side, especially a club side, which is not so dominant would make a judgement much fairer.
The World Cup argument is a load of bollocks, one player can't win a single match on his own, let alone the World Cup, and even if he could, it is absurd to judge a player's whole career on maybe 3 or 4 months of it depending on how long that career is.
Exactly. When you look at recent WC and EC winners they were almost exclusively well organized, defensively solid sides. Brazil in 2002 played with two defensive midfielders, Greece in 2004 grinded out three 1-0s in knockouts, Italy in 2006 conceded 2 goals in the entire tournament, Spain conceded nothing in.k knockouts in either 2008 or 2010.
Argentina are completely incapable of being organized that well right now, noe do they have suitable personnel. Plenty of ofensive talent but no decence or midfield.
It's an outdated argument. Way different pedestal back in the day when the European competitions were much smaller. Champions league is a bigger venue than the World Cup. More organized, players that train with each other every week. Tougher competition to win in terms of challenge. For the big teams the WC shouldn't even be a competition before the last 16 or perhaps even the quarter finals. Spain just got ahead 1-0 and cruised on that with ball retention.
A simpler solution would be to call Messi the best player in the world and stop calling him the best player ever.
A simpler solution would be to call Messi the best player in the world and stop calling him the best player ever.
Barcelona before Guardiola wasn't as dominant and he still shone in that side. Remember the game against Real Madrid which happened under Rijkaard, the 3-3 draw at Camp Nou where Real battered them but Messi always responded with a goal and completed a hat trick.
Impossible to compare him with other all time greats because they play in different eras. God knows how good Pele or Maradona would be in current CL for example. Then again, is it even possible to perform better than Messi?
Then you have people like Cal who think Ronaldo is close to his level and will be two levels above if he wins one more trophy.
Impossible to compare him with other all time greats because they play in different eras. God knows how good Pele or Maradona would be in current CL for example. Then again, is it even possible to perform better than Messi?
Then you have people like Cal who think Ronaldo is close to his level and will be two levels above if he wins one more trophy.
I don't think you can perform better than Messi. Perhaps that could be said about about a Maradona and Pele as well. I'm not sure.
Ronaldo is obviously close to his level. If you imagine football abilities in steps than I'd say Ronaldo and Messi are about the same height if you catch my drift.
Ronaldo is obviously close to his level. If you imagine football abilities in steps than I'd say Ronaldo and Messi are about the same height if you catch my drift.
I don't think he's anywhere near. There's nothing apart from heading (which is mainly because of height) that Ronaldo's good at that Messi wouldn't be equally good at.
Ronaldo is better at shooting. And he's quicker sprinting. Not by much though.
Shooting ? Shooting ducks at the funfair perhaps, but not on the field of play ... take five shots and hope one goes in - that's Ronaldo's strategy.
Funny laughing at the man who probably scores more goals outside the box than any other person in Europe. 111 goals in 113 games for Real Madrid and you laugh at his shooting. Get real.
No. Messi's on a different level to him, with or without a WC win.
Ronaldo's technique of striking a football at goal (which those in the know call "shooting") is superior.
I'd say Messi's far superior at manipulating the ball on the turf, but Ronaldo can manipulate a ball to swerve and dip like no other.
The fact that most of his team mates seem just as capable at winning everything that matters for Spain seem to suggest they'd win everything with or without him.
Nope. Dont think barca would beat Real or win the la liga for instance without messi.
Xavi is the god and Messi is his prophet....
Agree with this. Messi is great but one does have judge the barcelona players in the context of being part of such an incredible team, which in itself is hard to do. I mean pique is a good defender and all, but is he such a giant of a defender that rarely looks troubled? Obviously not. He doesn't have anywhere near the defending to do that most do. The system and quality on the ball is such that whenever he has to defend he's in an extremely advantageous position to the attacker and you'd expect him to come up trumps against ronaldo, Rooney etc But you can't say he isn't good either because his performances have been. So its all very subjective but one must appreciate the context of the team.
Are you serious here. So it doesn't seem to matter that he may have taken 500 shots to score 100, and I bet your boots most of them were certainly not from outside the box.
If bloke A takes 10 shots with a rifle (at the funfair, say
) and hits the target 4 times whereas his competitor takes the same number of shots yet hits the target on 8 occasions I doubt anybody is going to agree with you that four-shot fanny is the better marksman.- Status