The ones living in denial are those who think Messi will ever be considered in the league of Pele and Maradona without doing anything of note at international level.
Lionel Messi
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Can't we all agree to disagree? Is the world less livable because some of us think Messi needs to improve his showings on the international level before he is kinged bestest ever? I don't think anyone thinks he isn't the best player of the last 3 years. Let's leave it at that for now.
And you based that opinion on what? The fact that Spain won everything or the fact that they might not even win La Liga with him in the team?
When they meet inferior national teams..
With the exception of Real Madrid, who I can't think of a direct comparison - Germany are probably better than Bayern.
Based on the fact that none of the national teams that spain face come even close to how good Real are.
Who cares if Barcelona would win it all without Messi or not? It's not his fault he's surrounded by excellent players, and this idea of judging a footballer by trophies won, the manner in which they're won etc. is frankly silly as it's a team sport.
You could say the same about Ronaldo and it'd probably be true - Real would be as good without him as they are with him in side. They'd still steamroll the weaker opposition, like they do whenever he's absent, and he contributes absolutely nothing in the big games anyway and they get hammered by Barcelona everytime they play.
You could say the same about Ronaldo and it'd probably be true - Real would be as good without him as they are with him in side. They'd still steamroll the weaker opposition, like they do whenever he's absent, and he contributes absolutely nothing in the big games anyway and they get hammered by Barcelona everytime they play.
Like the Copa del Rey final last season... oh wait...
Still living that game? Well, out of what, ten games against Barcelona he's played for Real and United against Barcelona he's scored a header in one game, wow, impressive.
Especially compared to Messi who pisses all over Real Madrid in almost every single game they play.
Then again knowing you you probably think that a good finishing header by Ronaldo was better than 12 or 15 goals that Messi has scored or contributed to against Real because Ronaldo won a trophy. Am I right?
Spain won EURO 2008 with only three players of his current team (one of them if Puyol)..
And in the world cup, four 1-0s is hardly the team that is Barcelona.. Add ONLY Messi to Spain, and I could very easily see them thrash the international teams like Barcelona is doing at a higher club level.
Good points. Spain played good football in 2008 but were generally boring and capitalised on efficiency more than style in the last World Cup. They play nothing like Barcelona who are a joy to watch and the best team in the world.
That would be the same Messi who did nothing in those 4 games in a row against Real except during the time where Alves managed to get his marker sent off?
Winning is winning, especially in a cup competition. Spain bettered everyone at the WC, similarly to Barca in the CL last season.
Now you're arguing that Barca are better to watch than Spain, that's a different argument.
That would be the same Messi who did nothing in those 4 games in a row against Real except during the time where Alves managed to get his marker sent off?
Do you really suggest he did nothing in that 5-0 win? 10-men or not he still created a goal.
Even if he played below his level in 4 games in a row it's still less than Ronaldo who hasn't even had a good game against Barcelona.
Surely a manner in which trophies are won and style have to be considered? Or else you can say Ronaldo was a nothing player for United because we won a trophy after he left.
A very good point indeed.
Amen.
And Messi also performs in almost all big games imo.
I just reported you for more CR7 spamming, Cal?
There is no one way to the top. His current club performance trajectory is at an unparalleled level. If he keeps it up, it will be hard to deny that no one else would have been able to duplicate that. For me, it would certainly trump 7 games in the summer every four years.
It really isn't. Think Di Stefano. A man who did far more than Messi at club level and still isn't considered an equal of Pele and Mardaona by most of the globe.
Bottom line no one serious will call Messi the greatest ever if he keeps on doing nothing at the world cup.
Different era. He, Pele and Maradona lived in a time where the world cup was the supremely biggest stage in terms of quality but especially so in terms of exposure. Di Stefano was overlooked because he simply didn't get the same exposure without a world cup.
That is no longer the case. The CL has massive exposure, the leagues have far more today as well and competitively, the CL is a match for the world cup now, thanks to the abolishment of the 3-foreigners rule and the introduction of more than league winners from the best leagues.
Football has changed and there is no golden rule that says the world cup shall forever be the benchmark. You have to look at the actual quality of competitions being contested. To ignore this is just being dogmatic for the sake of it.
Maybe a few select idiots will
What's your obsession with World Cup?
You're wrong.Just the fact that at his age and without having won the WC, you get to see Messi being touted as one of the best (if not the best) ever is a good indication that a WC win isn't necessarily what's required for him to be the best ever.
He's what 24,25 ? He's already up there with the best ever (as in the top 2, top 3) to play the beautiful game.
Its where the greatest legends in world football are made.
I don't think the World Cup is the be all and end all, but the fact that Messi hasn't been able to replicate his club form at international level has to count against him when comparing him with players like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff and the like who've dominated at both club and international level, I think. The argument that the opposition is supposedly weaker at international level should mean that it'd be easier for him to impose himself against teams at that level, and until he does then it's reasonable to argue that those who have managed to do so for both club and country rather than just club should be regarded more highly.
That said, he's only 23 (ish? not sure of his exact age), so in all likelihood the argument will be academic by the end of his career, which is really when we should be comparing him against the likes of Maradona. He's still younger than Maradona was in 86, so there's plenty of time for him to make his mark at international level.
No way. It's only his fan boys who tout him as the best ever. No one else who counts does.
Furthermore this notion that the world cup is no longer important only comes from a small portion of Europe. The rest of the world doesn't see it that way and that's the way it will stay.
In the sixties!
I don't have an obsession with it. I'm just sick and tired of this garbage that it doesn't count when considering who is the greatest ever player to grace the game. It will always count. No matter how desperately some wish it wouldn't.
If it didn't Di Stefano would be universally considered the greatest player ever.
Used to perhaps but as it's already been pointed out, CL is a much more difficult competition to play these days and Messi is already the best player ever to have graced this competition.
You are joking, right?
I've seen journos and ex pro footballers all mentioning him as a possible best ever Chief.I know you have a high esteem of your opinion but some serious people about football do not agree with you.
All I'm saying is that whoever considers him as one of the best ever isn't necessarily a fanboy.
Nope.
In the old days you couldn't really see much of the football outside your country. So the World Cup was pretty much the only real football event that draws international interest.
When people got to see more games nowadays, it became stupid to make your whole judgment on a player based on how he performs in 10-20 games in his whole career.
Having said that, old people who have memories of the "great days" are still reluctant to accept the fact that the World Cup is not the same it once was anymore..
The fact that Brazil won the 1962 World Cup mostly without Pele(he was injured) makes him a less good player?
Christ, I don't even know where to begin with this. You'd honestly disregard the World Cup since the 60s, and argue that Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Zidane, Zico, Rossi, Ronaldo, Baggio etc didn't create a large part of their legendary status at the World Cup?
Not to mention that no-one is actually stating that the World Cup is the sole benchmark by which to judge a player, otherwise we'd all be chucking Klose into the equation. People are arguing that to be regarded as the very greatest, you have to excel at club level and international level.
So you're saying Ronaldo and Zidane aren't known as legends more for their World Cup performances than from their Champions League performances?
1- Obviously I didn't mean the sixties literally.
2- Baggio is a very good example. Had Baggio done what he has done in 1990 in the sixties, he'd be much more popular now..
3- Maradona didn't do at the club level half what Messi did already. Why aren't we doubting Maradona's credentials to be compared to Messi, if we base our judgement on both levels?
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