At least give stats thatll prove anything.
Such as his goal/assist totals with and without say just Xavi in the game.
Such as his goal/assist totals with and without say just Xavi in the game.
Lionel Messi
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Those stats showed that the assists BOTH Xavi and Iniesta (combined) gave to Messi last season contributed to obviously (much) less than half of his goals, AND that Messi gave almost as many assists as BOTH of them (combined) last season..
If you think those stats don't mean anything then this thread has just got funnier!
If Cristiano Ronaldo can somehow win that World Cup in Brazil for Portugal, that may perhaps rank as the greatest sporting achievement ever ever.
Those stats showed that the assists BOTH Xavi and Iniesta (combined) gave to Messi last season contributed to obviously (much) less than half of his goals, AND that Messi gave almost as many assists as BOTH of them (combined) last season..
If you think those stats don't mean anything then this thread has just got funnier!
Somehow the fact Messi plays upfront as the main forward and Xavi & Iniesta are midfielders seems to have escaped you.
It was close to the greatest travesty known to man in the last 60-70 years, and I say that with all due respect to the
Holocaust
Cambodia & Pol Pot
Darfur
Greece were the underdog, no one but the Greeks liked or cheered for
EDIT: sorry for the OT, carry on...
You somehow left Liverpool 2005 out of this.
So at age 36 he's going to light up the next World Cup?
I think he meant the greatest achievement for a player collectively, considering what Messi won beside that..
Oh God..I'll rephrase it... Again..
Messi scored most of his goals without the need for Xavi's or Iniesta's help (assists) while he provided MUCH more help (assists) for the team than Xavi and Iniesta..
Innocent question: How old are you??
I'll rephrase it... Again..
Messi scored most of his goals without the need for Xavi's or Iniesta's help (assists) while he provided MUCH more help (assists) for the team than Xavi and Iniesta..
Innocent question: How old are you??
You're being foolish if you think that just because Xavi and Iniesta don't get the 'assist' that they haven't played a major part in the goal. Let's not forgot that with Xavi on the pitch, only one team is going to have the ball and that also helps a lot in the big games.
I don't think Messi needs Xavi or Iniesta but I think you are brushing the latter two off just because of stats.
I'll rephrase it... Again..
Messi scored most of his goals without the need for Xavi's or Iniesta's help (assists) while he provided MUCH more help (assists) for the team than Xavi and Iniesta..
Innocent question: How old are you??
Again, you seem to completely ignore the fact that playing further upfront means he's much more likely to score or play the final ball to someone who scores, surely that can't be very difficult to understand?
Exactly.
He's the best player in the world, but he'd only get such statistics as Barcelona, in front of Xavi, Iniesta znd/or Fabregas. Any other side, either his assists or goals would suffer. IMO, the compacted way Barcelona play makes it very easy for a 1 yard pass to be an assist.
He's the best player in the world, but he'd only get such statistics as Barcelona, in front of Xavi, Iniesta znd/or Fabregas. Any other side, either his assists or goals would suffer. IMO, the compacted way Barcelona play makes it very easy for a 1 yard pass to be an assist.
You are being foolish if you call that kind of contribution "the only reason why Messi performs" - which is the point of the discussion.. Might as well put Messi's performances down to Valdes distribution!
"Are Xavi and Iniesta playing their part at Barcelona?" and "Is Messi totally dependent on Xavi and Iniesta without whom he can't perform" are two different issues.. And Fabregas, for one, knows the difference.
Messi doesn't play upfront, and most of his assists came from through balls to players rushing into the area. The way you make it sound like Messi gets his assists in the penalty box tells how much you watch Barcelona play..
So Messi didn't have any assists for Argentina??
Messi is benefiting from Barcelona's STYLE of play, not particular players.. He needs players to give the ball to and get it from fast, whether that's Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, or anyone..
This Xavi and Iniesta myth started in 2009 when it was ture.. However since last season Xavi was not as effective as he was before.. Iniesta is getting better but Xavi at his prime was still better.. Messi started to take over the team since 2010, and the stats proves that, especially in the assist category..
If you just wanna sit and repeat the myths of 2009 ignorantly, fine, it's your call.. However in reality, in my opinion at least, Xavi and Iniesta are still VERY good players and important to Barcelona, But Messi is no more dependent on them, and he's started to take over, more than anytime before.
Guys, stats mean everything. You must realize this. If it can't be mathimafied, it doesn't matter.
Players perform better in a good team? What an incredibly novel idea.
If you put Wayne Rooney at Bolton, I doubt his stats would be as good as they are for United but one things for certain he'd still play well.
Fact is, Messi has two of the best midfielders in the world giving him the ball constantly, but when he does get the ball the guy has magic in his feet.
If you put Wayne Rooney at Bolton, I doubt his stats would be as good as they are for United but one things for certain he'd still play well.
Fact is, Messi has two of the best midfielders in the world giving him the ball constantly, but when he does get the ball the guy has magic in his feet.
That is an incredibly simplistic view.
I'm saying that with the way Barcelona play, and the caliber of players like Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas (each could make a case for best player in the world behind Messi and he who must not be named), Messi's job is made incredibly simple. No other player in the world has such a platform.The statistics are skewed. Notice I mentioned I believe he's the best right now. He's just not up there with the best to have ever done it (Maradona, Pele).
That's a fair assessment right?
Incredibly simple?
The way Barca play is very much down to Messi as well.
Have you watched the way he plays for them? He is a center forward who plays in midfield. There isn't a player out there who can play that role as good as him. He makes their formation work.
Messi's goal scoring and assists record is only the tip of the iceberg. His overall play is what sets him apart. Some of his best performances have been in games when he hasn't scored.
I'm not getting involved in the Pele/Maradona debate because I've never seen them live but Messi is the best player of the last 20 years for me though.
I agree with 50% of your post. I'm typing this from a phone so forgive my brevity
By overall play are you talking about his dribbling? His goals and assists are not the tip of the iceberg, they are most of it. He's integral to their play because he can set things up in that formation, and also get on the end of things. His dribbling isn't a level above that of Iniesta, and he's not as good of a playmaker as Xavi. His stats set him apart (and rightly so), but they are skewed.
His performance against Madrid was one of the best I've seen from any player, ever, and he didn't score, so I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and that he is just a by product of Barcelona's style of play. He adds the X-factor others can't. He's the best player today. Don't think he's the best player in 20 years though. Wanna hear something crazy? I think Ronaldinho at his best was better.
By overall play are you talking about his dribbling? His goals and assists are not the tip of the iceberg, they are most of it. He's integral to their play because he can set things up in that formation, and also get on the end of things. His dribbling isn't a level above that of Iniesta, and he's not as good of a playmaker as Xavi. His stats set him apart (and rightly so), but they are skewed.
His performance against Madrid was one of the best I've seen from any player, ever, and he didn't score, so I'm not saying he isn't a special player, and that he is just a by product of Barcelona's style of play. He adds the X-factor others can't. He's the best player today. Don't think he's the best player in 20 years though. Wanna hear something crazy? I think Ronaldinho at his best was better.
I love that a quoted joke from Goal.com got taken out of context like this. Nobody here actually said he's 100% reliable on them, or even close really.
Still it's pretty obvious that his juiced club stats are reliant on them being around him, they are the ones who dictate that style of play which has won dominated the international scene without him. It's the same deal for Ronaldo though, not a star studded international team and he looks more ordinary.
Still it's pretty obvious that his juiced club stats are reliant on them being around him, they are the ones who dictate that style of play which has won dominated the international scene without him. It's the same deal for Ronaldo though, not a star studded international team and he looks more ordinary.
Against villareal last season- One of the best possesion sides in europe that season-they played thiago, mascherano and keita in midfield and still had 70%of the ball, away from home at that.
So no it isn't just down to xavi (or iniesta) at all. They have a lot of posession because of the way the team is set up and because almost every one in that team, including their defenders can retain the ball extremely well under high pressure.
So no it isn't just down to xavi (or iniesta) at all. They have a lot of posession because of the way the team is set up and because almost every one in that team, including their defenders can retain the ball extremely well under high pressure.
Those traits have not been shown by this side because of 1) coaching, which is now solved and 2) not being inspired by their best players. Messi being the cheif culprit. Man for man this sides depth of quality in all departments is far superior to what Maradona played with. This idea that the collective is unbalanced is false. They've simply failed to gel as a team and to make it worse Messi is not inspiring them at all either. Messi has no excuse what soever. He won things with most of these guys at age group level in solid, comprehensive teams. If he doesn't win a world cup with this same Argentine generation, it will mean he simply isn't in the league of Pele and Maradona. No matter how badly his fans will wish he is.
Id say tier two has Best, Beckenbauer, Cruyff and Di Stefano. Tier for me 3 would have the Yashin, Platini, Zidane, Charlton, Ronaldo and Eusebio
You just don't get it. It has nda to do with time barrier or whatever. Just common sense. To be as good as Pele and Maradona you have to match their achievements. It shouldn't be hard to understand. They excelled both at club and international level. Messi will only be at their level by doing both. Not doing one and flopping at the other.
That is why a Di Stefano with all he achieved at club level is still not ranked with them. Thus, it wont matter whether Messi breaks all conceivable records at club level. If he doesn't do something significant at international level, yet he comes from a nation more than capable of doing something significant at that level. He wont ever be considered in Pele and Mardona's league by anyone who isn't just a Messi loving fanatic.
We like to think that he can. But for Argentina he hardly ever shows it. Which is concerning.
Yes he will.
I've said it before and will say again: The notion that players must imitate to overtake is ridiculous.
Same way the 'Messi must join a small club to compare with Maradona' arguments are retarded.
At the end of the day, you look at the total weight of their achievements and decide if they are better or not. They don't have to be the same achievements.
What Messi is achieving at club level these days is something I would say is unparalleled. And that is an achievement Pele and Maradona, for whatever reasons, won't have on their CV. They will have others though.
We're just not allowed to compare them 2, I was merely stating a fact that Portugal winning it will be a much bigger achievement than Argentina doing so.
What Messi is achieving at club level had been better many times before, plenty of players have inspired their clubs to multiple titles and EC/CLs. Messi hasn't even retained the CL or even made a 2nd final in a row.
His incredible scoring record in La Liga has everything to do with the general weakness of La Liga, unless you think you-know-who is also there for his all-time La Liga scoring record.
TBF Messi only scores tap-ins from brilliant passes by Iniesta and Xavi. Don't buy all this hype about him being best in the world, he's not even best in Spain. Small, can't hit the ball with the right foot, not attractive (doesn't sell enough shirts) and plays in the team full of great players in which all he has to do is let the ball hit him and bounce to the net. I do realise he has good technique but so does Adam, he's quick but not quick as Martins and he can dribble just not as good as Obertan. Not to mention his constant crying over fouls and waiting every chance possible to dive in the box. And top of that all he hasn't even won World Cup which is something Kleberson laughs him every day. Small player that will be forgotten the day he retires, I've seen better players playing in Croatian third division then this laughing stock.
He must truly be shit then
He's just saying it's not something that sets Messi apart from many talented players over the years
Why should it ? I think it's a ridiculous criterion
It's a criteria that the two de facto best players ever have never achieved, between them they haven't even won one Champions league. It's as simple as this in twenty years time Messi will, barring injuries, be held in as high esteem as Pele or Maradona. You can put the house on it.
. It's as simple as this in twenty years time Messi will, barring injuries, be held in as high esteem as Pele or Maradona. You can put the house on it.Finally added a goal to his good performances for the national side.
It could open the floodgates, I still think he'll score more if Riquelme returned to the fold.
It could open the floodgates, I still think he'll score more if Riquelme returned to the fold.
You're acting like he needs to run, it's Roman!
And yes, it's a big possibility he can at 36, the lad is a boss.
Just caught his first goal against Santander yesterday..the man is a genius, the level he is reaching is absolutely scary. He's got magic in his feet. I cant believe you cnuts are still deliberating over whether he needs to do it at a World Cup, absolute pigsniffle. The Champions League is a competition of a much higher standard compared to the World Cup at this moment in time, and the guy is ripping a new one in it every year. If Messi wins Barca the CL this year, this argument should be rendered useless. And Boss his name is Juan or Riquelme, not fecking Roman.
Roman!!! El capitan!!!
Roman for life!
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