Lionel Messi

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Ronaldo got the golden ball, Suker the silver and Thuram the bronze...Zidane only won the golden ball in 06'.
 
Lionel Messi under Pep Guardiola: 168 (official) games, 150 goals. Overall for Barça: 278 games, 192 goals.
 
Crustanoid said:
Doh! You're right. My memory confused Ballon D'or with the tournament trophy
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The Ballon d'Or and FIFA awards were a sham. Ronaldo was hands down the best player on the planet in 1998. This was about the time the award winners started being the player that has the best performance in the WC or Euro final. Ridiculous.
 
MrMarcello said:
The Ballon d'Or and FIFA awards were a sham. Ronaldo was hands down the best player on the planet in 1998. This was about the time the award winners started being the player that has the best performance in the WC or Euro final. Ridiculous.
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It's always been like this.
 
crappycraperson said:
For one thing Zidane was never as consistently good in almost every club match as Messi has been. Fat Ronaldo, was in his prime.

I would put it this way:

Going by their absolute best, be in it a single match, Fat ,Ronaldo is still the best.

Going by impact on international stage and in big matches, Zidane wins.

Going by consistent top performances over the course of 2-3 years, Messi wins.
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Domestic wise, you'll be hard pressed to find a player more consistent than Messi in big matches.

With 2 goals in two CL finals, around 13/14 goals in el clasico, I think he's been top scorer in Europe 3 seasons in a row, I may be wrong.

He also outshone Zidane comprehensively in 05/06 el clasico when he was 18.

It was actually on the back of his four goals against Arsenal where the whole 'is he the best ever' question started being taken more seriously, rightly or wrong.
 
TheHorse'sMouth said:
Zidane did absolutely feck all in that tournament apart from scoring 2 in the final. Perhaps the greatest myth perpetuated in football today is that he had an outstanding tournament in 98..he didn't. He got sent off in the group stages and was having a lousy tournament until the final. The watertight defence and physically dominant and athletic midfield was the reason France won that particular tournament.

Zidane was magnificent for France in Euro 2000, but his contribution at the 98 World Cup was indifferent and hardly merits the myth that surrounds it.
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Zidane put in some good performances in 98, got his ban, but was sensational in the final. Not just his two goals but overall play, he truly was on fire.

He was brilliant in Euro 2000, especially against Spain and Portugal, he had a very quiet final but had done enough anyway.

World cup 2006 he turned back the clock although Brazil might aswell have thrown in the towel with the suspect way they played. Young Cristiano doesn't get credit for being the best player on the pitch in the semis though. His performance was marred by diving.
 
TheHorse'sMouth said:
Zidane did absolutely feck all in that tournament apart from scoring 2 in the final. Perhaps the greatest myth perpetuated in football today is that he had an outstanding tournament in 98..he didn't. He got sent off in the group stages and was having a lousy tournament until the final. The watertight defence and physically dominant and athletic midfield was the reason France won that particular tournament.

Zidane was magnificent for France in Euro 2000, but his contribution at the 98 World Cup was indifferent and hardly merits the myth that surrounds it.
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Spot on.
 
NJ1979 said:
There's no great difference in strength between the current Argentina squad and the 1986 squad. Man for man, the current squad may even be stronger, so I'm not buying this argument.
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Spot on. The difference between the 2 sides is the 1986 side had Maradona. Till Messi learns to inspire his team mates he wont do squat with the Argentine senor side.
 
Boss said:
Domestic wise, you'll be hard pressed to find a player more consistent than Messi in big matches.

With 2 goals in two CL finals, around 13/14 goals in el clasico, I think he's been top scorer in Europe 3 seasons in a row, I may be wrong.

He also outshone Zidane comprehensively in 05/06 el clasico when he was 18.

It was actually on the back of his four goals against Arsenal where the whole 'is he the best ever' question started being taken more seriously, rightly or wrong.
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Domestic wise only big matches Barca have are against Real (atleast in Messi's era) He has shone in them but generally Zidane made a habit of taking his game a notch or three above in consequential matches. Messi has added goals to his game in big matches but I don't think he performs better in big matches persay.

My point was more oriented towards international scene anyway. France was Zidane, post 98. Likes of Henry even at their best did not matter for France, only Zidane did. He more or less proved that in 2006. That French team was much worse than current Argentine one, less said about the manager the better.

FWIW I do think Messi is better than Zidane or can be claimed to be so now. Int'football can not be the litmus test all the time.

One point worth noting is that La Liga was also much more competitive in Zidane's time rather than the joke it is now ala SPL. That adds perspective to Messi's ridiculous stats. He is good enough to pull those in Premiership I think but since he does not and instead is playing against teams who are losing as easily to Real as well, that should be put as disclaimer against those numbers.
 
crappycraperson said:
Domestic wise only big matches Barca have are against Real (atleast in Messi's era) He has shone in them but generally Zidane made a habit of taking his game a notch or three above in consequential matches. Messi has added goals to his game in big matches but I don't think he performs better in big matches persay.

My point was more oriented towards international scene anyway. France was Zidane, post 98. Likes of Henry even at their best did not matter for France, only Zidane did. He more or less proved that in 2006. That French team was much worse than current Argentine one, less said about the manager the better.

FWIW I do think Messi is better than Zidane or can be claimed to be so now. Int'football can not be the litmus test all the time.

One point worth noting is that La Liga was also much more competitive in Zidane's time rather than the joke it is now ala SPL. That adds perspective to Messi's ridiculous stats. He is good enough to pull those in Premiership I think but since he does not and instead is playing against teams who are losing as easily to Real as well, that should be put as disclaimer against those numbers.
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For such a reason, whether right or wrong I'm only mentioning Messi's 13/14 goals against the other perceived 'big team' in laliga: Real.

Zidane wasn't at his best for Real, they signed him past his peak in my opinion. He also took quite a few months to settle in his first season which prompted some people to think Kaka would follow suit. Still world class mind you and had moments of brilliance.

In constant el clasico's Ronaldinho looked the better player than Zidane. The french man got his revenge in the world cup 2006 though.
 
i never thought bob lee (anyone) from espn (US) would use "messi like" in describing a jinking move by an american footballer. maybe he is the most famous (after pele) in the world ever. i saw super diego at his peak in a couple of WC matches and pele at cosmos , but this guy is the best i've ever seen.
 
Boss said:
Nobody will ever match it, let's be honest here.
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We shall see. Maradona and Pele stand above everyone. For anyone to be put in their league, that person has to at the very least win a world cup. Doing so by inspiring a team to victory. One day it will be done.

But right now I don't believe like so many do that Messi will do so.
 
Boss said:
For such a reason, whether right or wrong I'm only mentioning Messi's 13/14 goals against the other perceived 'big team' in laliga: Real.

Zidane wasn't at his best for Real, they signed him past his peak in my opinion. He also took quite a few months to settle in his first season which prompted some people to think Kaka would follow suit. Still world class mind you and had moments of brilliance.

In constant el clasico's Ronaldinho looked the better player than Zidane. The french man got his revenge in the world cup 2006 though.
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Zidane mostly turned up for Real in CL... would have won more CL with them if not for their brain freeze to sell midfielders like Makelele and Cambiasso and play Beckham as a DM...

I have said before on these forums, going by consistency in league, Zidane should never even a contender for such debates. It is just that it is impossible to look past his dominance when he did show up.
 
crappycraperson said:
Zidane mostly turned up for Real in CL... would have won more CL with them if not for their brain freeze to sell midfielders like Makelele and Cambiasso and play Beckham as a DM...

I have said before on these forums, going by consistency in league, Zidane should never even a contender for such debates. It is just that it is impossible to look past his dominance when he did show up.
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It's true Zidane put in some brilliant performances for Real in the CL. Against the likes of us, Barcelona Nou camp, Bayern Munich, Leverkusen. It hasn't topped what Messi has done in the CL though imo.

Regards to Beckham, Real never really needed him at all imo. They could have got Ronaldinho instead who showed the Madistras who was comprehensively the better player in the Bernabeu in 2003/04 when the two were on the same pitch...and then he did it again and again....

As much as I love Becks I couldn't stand that whole galactico policy and Becks epitomized it to the fullest.
 
Real did not need Beckham, neither did they need Ronaldinhio.. they had enough attacking talent .. just needed to buy or not sell proper DMs they had and buy a couple of solid defenders.
 
I also do not think Messi has surpassed Zidane's CL performances yet, goals do not tell you everything.. I also do not rate Arsenal of recent years, so him raping them any number of times does not necessarily elevate him for me.
 
Indeed they don't, it's not for his goals I say this but his all round play.

From the day the entire world knew who the number 30 was when he stole the show at Stamford bridge uptill now, I doubt you'l find a more consistent performer in the tournament but it's subjective.
 
Thing is, Diego had achieved extraordinary greatness throughout his career. His achievements in particular with Napoli, will be impossible to repeat in today's game. Messi is certainly not at his level, not yet anyway but I also feel that people who grew up watching Maradona are quick to preserve his status as untouchable. Leo is still young in footballer's terms and has already done things at his age which brings up this old debate. Messi will need to get Argentina jumping through enough hoops at the next WC, but I don't think it's compulsory to reinforce his status at all. Say he wins Barcelona the next two CL's, that should be enough to really consolidate his position in the pantheon. People will be talking about Leo twenty years after he's retired, the way others revere Maradona now.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
To enforce his status as anything close to Maradona and Pele you bet its a must TheHorse'sMouth. An absolute must. If he doesn't win a world cup he will only be ranked with Di Stefano.
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Does the fact that the team he's playing in is as unbalanced as it gets, is as poorly coached as it gets(whoever the latest manager is), and defend like school boys not hinder his chances of doing that though? Any great player, no matter how talented, needs a strong team around him to perform to his full potential and to amass the achievements people measure him by, fact is that Messi has that platform at club level but not at international level.
 
Boss said:
Indeed they don't, it's not for his goals I say this but his all round play.

From the day the entire world knew who the number 30 was when he stole the show at Stamford bridge uptill now, I doubt you'l find a more consistent performer in the tournament but it's subjective.
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He wasn't a star in that side (Champions League) until 08-09.

04-05: Knocked out by Chelsea
05-06: Ronaldinho the star of that team that won
06-07: Knocked out by Liverpool in last 16
07-08: Injured, rushed back to meet us, skins Evra a few times at Old Trafford yet can't do much

I wouldn't call him consistent over that period, he's been on a steady incline in terms of performance from then till now.
 
Boss said:
Indeed they don't, it's not for his goals I say this but his all round play.

From the day the entire world knew who the number 30 was when he stole the show at Stamford bridge uptill now, I doubt you'l find a more consistent performer in the tournament but it's subjective.
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This is what I was talking about in a way. As much as I think Messi is the BPITW and worthy for a comparison to any all time great in the game, his fan bois have perpetuated many a myth about him. The Chelsea game being one, IMO anyway.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
The current Argentine side is every bit as strong as Maradona's 1986-1990 side. Probably even stronger. That excuse is pretty lame.
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I don't think they are to be honest. They might have more talented individuals but Maradona's generation could at least defend and played as a team, neither of those traits have been shown by the current Argentina side that Messi has played in from 2006-2011. You can have a list of world-class players as long as your arm but if they are unbalanced and can't play as a unit then they aren't going to get far.
 
For clarification in this discussion, what are the tiers in terms of talent, and where do past and current stars rank? Pele and Maradona are put in that top tier, what's the next and the third?
 
crappycraperson said:
This is what I was talking about in a way. As much as I think Messi is the BPITW and worthy for a comparison to any all time great in the game, his fan bois have perpetuated many a myth about him. The Chelsea game being one, IMO anyway.
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I really don't think there's a myth about it. He was clearly the best player on the pitch.

Jose's indestructable Chelsea had no idea how to deal with him, best part of the match is when he hit the bar with a crazy curling shot that had Cech beaten all ends up.

Everyone was talking him about it after the game, he was then in the mood to do it again at the Nou Camp then picked up a hamstring and was out for the rest of the season. Ronaldinho then took matters into his own hands.
 
Boss said:
I really don't think there's a myth about it. He was clearly the best player on the pitch.

Jose's indestructable Chelsea had no idea how to deal with him, best part of the match is when he hit the bar with a crazy curling shot that had Cech beaten all ends up.

Everyone was talking him about it after the game, he was then in the mood to do it again at the Nou Camp then picked up a hamstring and was out for the rest of the season. Ronaldinho then took matters into his own hands.
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Messi had a good game as winger in that game like many a winger do against any good or great sides. He did not however play a crucial role in winning that game for Barca. He individually showed his talent and skill as any good young player given the chance would have done.

His fan bois would have you think he dominated the game like no other player and single handedly destroyed Chelsea.
 
crappycraperson said:
Messi had a good game as winger in that game like many a winger do against any good or great sides. He did not however play a crucial role in winning that game for Barca. He individually showed his talent and skill as any good young player given the chance would have done.

His fan bois would have you think he dominated the game like no other player and single handedly destroyed Chelsea.
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In your opinion, he was very cruicial in Barca winning the game. He was brilliant for 90 mins and was rightly lauded by the media. If you didn't know who Messi was before the game you certainly did after.

He was playing way beyond his tender years.

The way you keep spraying 'fanbois' around suggests to me it's you who has the agenda.

The bolded part is incredibly dismissive aswell. Especially when you remember how great Chelsea was at the time.
 
Messi to miss last-eight date
Published: Wednesday 8 March 2006, 18.53CET
Lionel Messi will sit out FC Barcelona's UEFA Champions League quarter-final tie after injuring his right thigh against Chelsea FC at Camp Nou last night.

FC Barcelona forward Lionel Messi will miss the club's UEFA Champions League quarter-final tie after injuring his right thigh against Chelsea FC last night.

Muscle injury
The 18-year-old was a major factor in Barça's 2-1 first knockout round first-leg victory at Chelsea two weeks ago, but lasted only 25 minutes of the home return, which finished 1-1, having pulled up with a muscle problem. Barcelona's medical staff have decided against an operation but have said the Argentinian international needs four weeks to rest the injury.

Friday draw
The Spanish champions will find out their last-eight opponents on Friday, when UEFA stages the draw for the remaining rounds in Paris, the host city for this year's final at the Stade de France on 17 May. No teams will be seeded and sides from the same country can be drawn together. The quarter-finals will be played on 28/29 March and 4/5 April.
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From UEFA's website.
 
WireRed said:
Does the fact that the team he's playing in is as unbalanced as it gets, is as poorly coached as it gets(whoever the latest manager is), and defend like school boys not hinder his chances of doing that though? Any great player, no matter how talented, needs a strong team around him to perform to his full potential and to amass the achievements people measure him by, fact is that Messi has that platform at club level but not at international level.
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Fact seems to be that his club team mates are well capable of winning everything (WC, Euro) without him.
 
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