Lionel Messi

[Marcosdeto]

Marcos, do River fans love Maradona in the same way as the rest of Argentina? I wonder if a Liverpool player would carry the same adulation amongst United fans, for example.

not at all, river fans regard maradona as one of the best players ever, and have gratitude towards him for what he did in the1986 and 1990 world cups

but they dislike him for what he represents for boca

 

[Spoony]

He's (now) 23 Alex

Put into context, Maradona hadn't signed for Napoli yet, and his first world cup was a promising disapointment

His first WC was pretty good actually. Was funny seeing perhaps the best Brazilian side ever resorting to kicking him from pillar to post, though. One expects that from the old Italian sides but Brazil? Odd. They were frightened of him. Great WC by the way, up there with Mexico for me.

 

[Boss]

I'm just helping you out Boss.

I don't see why all of you get so defensive about La Liga players. Respond with sense rather than getting wound up, it gives people the wrong impression. Just a piece of advice. Your choice to follow it of course.

Apologies if you feel targeted or something. Not intended.

you're trying to help me?

You're coming across as very creepy and slightly stalky.

again is this some weird epic fail, reservse psychology?

you're trying to me smart as usual but you constantly fail at that.

 

[Spoony]

not at all, river fans regard maradona as one of the best players ever, and have gratitude towards him for what he did in the1986 and 1990 world cups

but they dislike him for what he represents for boca

That doesn't surprise me. Club loyalties and all that.

 

[Marcosdeto]

He's (now) 23 Alex

Put into context, Maradona hadn't signed for Napoli yet, and his first world cup was a promising disapointment

indeed, plus maradona had Bilardo as a coach in 1986 and 1990 while messi had, well, Maradona, whose coaching skills are light years away from bilardos

 

[Boss]

indeed, plus maradona had Bilardo as a coach in 1986 and 1990 while messi had, well, Maradona, whose coaching skills are light years away from bilardos

As bad as a coach Maradona was.

I do give him credit for that final game vs Uruguay when Argentina won away from home.

I didn't see it coming.

 

[Marcosdeto]

That doesn't surprise me. Club loyalties and all that.

yes, well, imagine rooney doing for england what maradona did for argentina

how will liverpool fans take it? they'll be mighty glad england won the world cup, but they will hate him for being a manchester united player

another thing, maradona was a Independiente fan, only after signing with boca, he became a fan

in fact, it's a well knon fact that bochini, an independiente player, was appointed for argentina in 1986 because maradona wanted to play along him, he was maradona's idol

 

[amolbhatia50k]

you're trying to help me?

You're coming across as very creepy and slightly stalky.

again is this some weird epic fail, reservse psychology?

you're trying to me smart as usual but you constantly fail at that.

Trying to me smart?

You come across as a raging La Liga obsessed person who takes any criticism of that league or its players very very personally. I thought knowing that would prevent you from doing it again and again. But fair enough, you get even more defensive when it's pointed out!

Won't bother you about this.

 

[Arruda]

Has someone from this thread been ghosted? The pages look funny.

Same old pointless argument of Pele, Maradona, Messi. Pele and Maradona are up there because they were apart from their contemporaries. Messi also is, but if he only does it for 3 seasons it won't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If he keeps that way, he'll rightfully be up there with the others, and there will be no need to compare him to Maradona or Pele as football is different and it's pointless. He'll never have the chance to take Napoli to win the Serie A, nor in today's football is certain if any single player (even Maradona himself) could do that again.

It's like comparing Schumacher with Senna and Fangio, where is the sense in that? All different, all different eras, all great.

 

[Marcosdeto]

As bad as a coach Maradona was.

I do give him credit for that final game vs Uruguay when Argentina won away from home.

I didn't see it coming.

sorry boss, but that was bilardo

the thing is that bilardo was suposed to make the tactic adjustments, while maradona was suposde to lift the players spirits

but then they had a fight -primadonas- and that didnt worked out, so bilardo was set aside and maradona took charge during the world cup

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I can't believe Messi is just 23.

 

[Boss]

Trying to me smart?

You come across as a raging La Liga obsessed person who takes any criticism of that league or its players very very personally. I thought knowing that would prevent you from doing it again and again. But fair enough, you get even more defensive when it's pointed out!

Won't bother you about this.

You constantly call me Laliga obsessed yet your posts dominate the majority of Laliga threads in the most ironic dimwitted way.

like I don't want to start calling you an idiot but you're truly acting like one here.

and please, stop following me around?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

They had financial issues down the line. Needless to say though Chief, if they could afford to set a world record fee to sign him, and other very good players alongside, there's only so far you can push the minnows card

That is why I compared them to the current Everton. They weren't minnows to the extent he got like a Blackpool to win the league. But they honestly werent considered a threat, depsite the City they hailed from and their fan base.

I'm not knocking him for his fantastic achievement, I'm just not sure where this comes in as a stick to beat Messi with?

A stick is a rather strong way to put it but just look at the scenario I proposed concerning a Messi and the current Everton. If it seems laughably ridiculous its because of how incredible what Maradona actually achieved was.

Pele didn't play for a side up against regular top opposition in competitive ties... and we consider him the best or second best player ever

TBF It depends what you call top opposition. Pele was in Brazil when their league was arguably just as strong as their European counterparts and he was making Santos dominant. At a time when all the Brazil legends of that era were largely based there. He then also dominated the Europeans almost every time he came across them in international competition save for in 1966.

That is why for Maradona to even be considered almost unainimously in his league was an incredible achievement. I mean, even Best, Cruyff and Di Stefano didn't get such a deal. That is why some us feel too much jumping of the gun is being done with Messi. We should instead sit back and enjoy the fact that he seems on the way to matching those 2, sans the personal issue they both had.

 

[B Cantona]

Has someone from this thread been ghosted? The pages look funny.

Same old pointless argument of Pele, Maradona, Messi. Pele and Maradona are up there because they were apart from their contemporaries. Messi also is, but if he only does it for 3 seasons it won't mean much in the grand scheme of things. If he keeps that way, he'll rightfully be up there with the others, and there will be no need to compare him to Maradona or Pele as football is different and it's pointless. He'll never have the chance to take Napoli to win the Serie A, nor in today's football is certain if any single player (even Maradona himself) could do that again.

It's like comparing Schumacher with Senna and Fangio, where is the sense in that? All different, all different eras, all great.

Halfway through his career, would you deny Schumacher the right to be talked of in the same terms as the other two?

 

[Spoony]

yes, well, imagine rooney doing for england what maradona did for argentina

Well, I suspect he'd still be disliked/hated. However the majority of the country would probably canonise him. Difficult one to answer, because club loyalties are so strong, as a result of the game's tribal nature... and United aren't exactly the neutral's favourite club.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I can't believe Messi is just 23.

he'll be 24 in june

he was born 6/24/87

 

[Boss]

sorry boss, but that was bilardo

the thing is that bilardo was suposed to make the tactic adjustments, while maradona was suposde to lift the players spirits

but then they had a fight -primadonas- and that didnt worked out, so bilardo was set aside and maradona took charge during the world cup

DAMN, what did they fight over?

Maradona not wanting to select Cambiasso and Zanetti?!

 

[Marcosdeto]

Well, I suspect he'd still be disliked/hated. However the majority of the country would probably canonise him. Difficult one to answer, because club loyalties are so strong and tribal... and United aren't exactly the neutral's favourite club.

dont get me wrong, the rest of the country canonised maradona

the only ones that dislike him -and in a mildly way- are river fans

 

[Marcosdeto]

[/B]

DAMN, what did they fight over?

Maradona not wanting to select Cambiasso and Zanetti?!

i think it was only about who's name was going to be first and bigger in the credits

you know, primadonas stuff

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You constantly call me Laliga obsessed yet your posts dominate the majority of Laliga threads in the most ironic dimwitted way.

like I don't want to start calling you an idiot but you're truly acting like one here.

and please, stop following me around?

You come in raging madly into these threads hurling insults as if you've been personally insulted instead of proper discussion so it's sort of hard to ignore and not find it slightly odd.

But whatever, I'll happily manage to do just that!

(leaves this particular conversation)

 

[B Cantona]

Rubberman, you impression of Brazilian football in Pele's era is false. He rarely came up against the best of Brazil given the way football was set up, and he was in a stunning side himself

 

[Marcosdeto]

Halfway through his career, would you deny Schumacher the right to be talked of in the same terms as the other two?

well, yes, but halfway his career schumaher had won 3 or 4 F1 worl cups

of course, if messi manages to do something like that -not 4 but at least one- then the similarities and comparisons will be more apropriate

 

[Spoony]

dont get me wrong, the rest of the country canonised maradona

the only ones that dislike him -and in a mildly way- are river fans

But you don't seem to dislike him, even mildly. Anyway, I wonder if Boca fans love him more than Napolitans do.

 

[Boss]

But you don't seem to dislike him, even mildly. Anyway, I wonder if Boca fans love him more than Napolitans do.

well I think it's ancient history now, but I believe things wasn't the same for a while between Diego and the Napoli fans after Maradona has the audacity to knock Italy out of the world cup.

 

[B Cantona]

well, yes, but halfway his career schumaher had won 3 or 4 F1 worl cups

of course, if messi manages to do something like that -not 4 but at least one- then the similarities and comparisons will be more apropriate

Messi is ridiculously decorated with Barca already, and breaking records already

He should be considered amongst the best of all time already. If he was forced to retire tomorrow, are we really saying he's not up there?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

he'll be 24 in june

he was born 6/24/87

It's still madness. Much like Nadal.

Regarding the whole world cup debate, how do people see it in Argentina? Needs to win a WC to be regarded as the greatest or not?

Personally, I've changed my mind on this. Winning it is an unfair criteria because to win you need a great team and he alone can't do that. I think consistently, and I guess he'll have 2 or 3 more WC's, shining as one of the best players and doing all he can should be the necessity at International level. As long as he does that and he needs to be brilliant not just good it should be good enough because beyond that the teams performance will determine whether they win it or not.

 

[TheHorse'sMouth]

The press are going mad over Messi and are lauding him with all these stupendous accolades, because of his talent. He's certainly talented enough to surpass Maradona's heights, whether he does so is another matter entirely. We'll just have to wait and see..

 

[Spoony]

well I think it's ancient history now, but I believe things wasn't the same for a while between Diego and the Napoli fans after Maradona has the audacity to knock Italy out of the world cup.

The Napolitans supported Argentina, Boss. The Italians were pissed off with them and Maradona. I saw a travel programme called Global Trekker a couple of years ago, I think Justine Shapiro(?) travelled around Naples and Southern Italy... where she got to sample the local pizza and mingled with the locals. They pointed out to her that they virtually worship him as a diety and most even carry his photo in their wallets. He can do no wrong for them.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Messi is ridiculously decorated with Barca already, and breaking records already

He should be considered amongst the best of all time already. If he was forced to retire tomorrow, are we really saying he's not up there?

what can i say? gullit, van basten, del piero, they all did what messi is doing now

still they are not regarded as football gods, they are not in the same place as maradona and pele

IMO so far, messi is in that level, he can reach higher, but he still needs to play more

 

[Arruda]

Halfway through his career, would you deny Schumacher the right to be talked of in the same terms as the other two?

I think that doing it after him winning two F1 Championships it would be premature.

People can compare what they want, but if you want it to look the least rational, you need to compare things in the same setting, and football nowadays is not the same it was in the 80's nor like it was in the 60's and the same goes for F1. No one in their right mind would try to objectively explain us that Einstein is smarter than Aristotle or Isaac Newton, people can have their preferences, but to try and be objective about these issues is pointless. In the case of F1 the Fangio lovers will say that the cars were impossible to handle and that Schumacher would be fecked, the Senna ones will say that Senna raced against some of the best pilots ever and Schumacher never had reasonable opposition, etc...

And for the sake of it, I'm more with the crowd of the "let's wait and see" because Messi's career is still in progress. If he does a Ronaldinho no one will put him alongside the greatest ever, that's for sure, no matter how many goals and assists he does in one or two seasons. If he does continue to grace us with his skill and win titles for his teams, then with every reason he'll be up there. He doesn't have to emulate Maradona's feats, it's possible that not even Maradona could do it in today's conditions. He just needs to remain some notches above every else (like he's done for the past two seasons) for sometime more.

Even then, someone will be arguing that he's better than Pele, but second to Maradona, while some other fool will show out of the blue telling us the the order is Messi, Pele, Maradona, or whatever people want to construct in their heads.

 

[Spoony]

what can i say? gullit, van basten, del piero, they all did what messi is doing now

still they are not regarded as football gods, they are not in the same place as maradona and pele

IMO so far, messi is in that level, he can reach higher, but he still needs to play more

I agree. You can add so many to that list, Zico's another who comes to mind.

 

[Marcosdeto]

But you don't seem to dislike him, even mildly. Anyway, I wonder if Boca fans love him more than Napolitans do.

i think napolitans love maradona more, what he did for them wasn't only two scudettos and the UEFA cup, he made them fight with milan, juventus, roma, inter

and win

and theres a political reason too, napolitanos are regarded in italy as the low of the low, so when maradona's team beat the northern cities clubs, he was giving napolitans some pride

on the other hand, maradona won only one championship with boca, and in his story, boca won 21 argentinian leagues

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not denying anything, people can compare what they want, but if you want it to look the least rational, you need to compare things in the same setting, and football nowadays is not the same it was in the 80's nor like it was in the 60's and the same goes for F1. No one in their right mind would try to objectively explain us that Einstein is smarter than Aristotle or Isaac Newton, people can have their preferences, but to try and be objective about these issues is pointless. In the case of F1 the Fangio lovers will say that the cars were impossible to handle and that Schumacher would be fecked, the Senna ones will say that Senna raced against some of the best pilots ever and Schumacher never had reasonable opposition, etc...

And for the sake of it, I'm more with the crowd of the "let's wait and see" because Messi's career is still in progress. If he does a Ronaldinho no one will put him alongside the greatest ever, that's for sure, no matter how many goals and assists he does in one or two seasons. If he does continue to grace us with his skill and win titles for his teams, then with every reason he'll be up there. He doesn't have to emulate Maradona's feats, it's possible that not even Maradona could do it in today's conditions. He just needs to remain some notches above every else (like he's done for the past two seasons) for sometime more.

Even then, someone will be arguing that he's better than Pele, but second to Maradona, while some other fool will show out of the blue telling us the the order is Messi, Pele, Maradona, or whatever people want to construct in their heads.

Brilliant post mate.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I agree. You can add so many to that list, Zico's another who comes to mind.

of course, zico, platini, rikjaard, best ...

ronaldinho not only won a lot of medals with barcelona, he also won the world cup with brazil,

messi still needs to prove he can do that

 

[Spoony]

i think napolitans love maradona more, what he did for them wasn't only two scudettos and the UEFA cup, he made them fight with milan, juventus, roma, inter

and win

and theres a political reason too, napolitanos are regarded in italy as the low of the low, so when maradona's team beat the northern cities clubs, he was giving napolitans some pride

on the other hand, maradona won only one championship with boca, and in his story, boca won 21 argentinian leagues

Yes. I recall Italians saying the WC semi was like an away game for them, such was the support for Argentina.

 

[B Cantona]

what can i say? gullit, van basten, del piero, they all did what messi is doing now

still they are not regarded as football gods, they are not in the same place as maradona and pele

IMO so far, messi is in that level, he can reach higher, but he still needs to play more

They didn't do it the way Messi has though. He is a phenomenon

I don't see much more Messi could do to improve as a player, he's already ridiculous. Will he keep it up for another ten years? Can he capture international silverware? Time will tell

 

[Marcosdeto]

The Napolitans supported Argentina, Boss. The Italians were pissed off with them and Maradona. I saw a travel programme called Global Trekker a couple of years ago, I think Justine Shapiro(?) travelled around Naples and Southern Italy... where she got to sample the local pizza and mingled with the locals. They pointed out to her that they virtually worship him as a diety and most even carry his photo in their wallets. He can do no wrong for them.

i remember that, before that semifinal game the italians papers said "in the worst scenario against the worst team"

 

[amolbhatia50k]

of course, zico, platini, rikjaard, best ...

ronaldinho not only won a lot of medals with barcelona, he also won the world cup with brazil,

messi still needs to prove he can do that

I used to feel that way but is it totally in his control? I don't think so. Messi could match Maradona's performances in 86 and his team mates could let him down. I think it's unfair to judge one purely by the teams performance because there is only so much he can do. IMO regarding the international level he needs to be basically shine at the WC and do all he can do, possibly be the best player at the tournament once or twice.

 

[Marcosdeto]

They didn't do it the way Messi has though. He is a phenomenon

I don't see much more Messi could do to improve as a player, he's already ridiculous. Will he keep it up for another ten years? Can he capture international silverware? Time will tell

yes, time will tell, if he doesn't win more international silverware, he will be regarded as one of the football legends, but he wont be seated with maradona, pele, cruyf and distefano

 

[Spoony]

of course, zico, platini, rikjaard, best ...

ronaldinho not only won a lot of medals with barcelona, he also won the world cup with brazil,

messi still needs to prove he can do that

Messi's the best in the world, I don't think that can be disputed but he plays in arguably the best club side since Milan circa 89, in fact some would say they're even better. I don't think he's got the charisma to lift a mediocre side to glory. He also plays in a very good Argenitina side too, but he's always been flat for his national side. I actually think he's better than Ronaldinho ever was, though....but there's no shame in being amongst the likes of Zico, Platini et al. They were truly great players.