Lionel Messi

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Eriku said:
Ridiculous, sure... But Spain's hardly a defensive bastion... we've recently been shitting on Valencia for having such a gulf between them and Real... And goals and assists-wise he's the most ridiculous thing I've seen, that much is true... but that's about his involvement in the final third... I'm talking about Maradona's ability to switch play, to set up attacks with a lofted through ball with back spin, the playmaking that doesn't show up in stats... I know this conveniently places me in the territory of the unverifiable, which makes me a bit uncomfortable, but having watched my share of Maradona matches, as well as Messi matches, I just don't see Messi being as important to the overall play of the team as Maradona was.

Is that at all fair enough, or am I still just talking out of my arse?
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It's a difficult one, this. Messi's productivity is so outrageous that I'm not even convinced it is possible for him to have the influence on build up that he did at times, say, a few years ago (there's also the fact that there is no need for this to be the case due to the brilliance of Xavi et al).

Saying that, prior to this post, I was looking over Maradona's goalscoring statistics and noticed that he also had a ratio of over 1 goal every 2 matches, though Messi's is better so far.

They're both just fecking amazing really, aren't they?
 
Theres probably not much difference between Messi and Maradona skill wise,assist wise and speed wise etc but the big difference is that Messi will go on to do it more consistently without constant drama and thats why he will more than likely be remembered as the greatest when he retires until Ravel Morrison overtakes him some years after of course!
 
Boss said:
It's not how you paint it, I don't think I've ever seen you mention another player on that Napoli team.

edit , i thought I was talking to Eriku there

why on earth do you keep bringing up Ronaldo? we're talking about the very greatest here, all respect to the portugese, put that fanboi stuff elsewhere.
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I don't recall you promoting any other Barca players either in our sparrings on Messi v Maradona... so I don't see what that means...
 
Boss said:
Out of interest, I'm not really an assist person but does anyone know where I can find Maradona's assist stats at Napoli?
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I was looking for those stats to try and see whether it was possible to be as productive as Messi whilst playing deeper, but to no avail.

I didn't look very hard, admittedly.
 
KingEric7 said:
I'm aware of their achievements, but it's all relative. What Messi is doing at this age and in this day of football is just astonishing. We will have to see come the end of their careers, but if Messi merely sustains what he is doing now, I see no reason why the comparison cannot be upheld.).
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That is because you refuse to acknowledge the significance of international football.

KingEric7 said:
On another note, what I find interesting is that people haven't considered the possibility (whilst making the comparison) that Messi may actually perform even better in a team that does not have that many superstars (something we haven't yet seen).
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I dont by that at all. I mean, when the Barca side went to shit and he was the only one shining pre Guardiola, he wasn't performing better than he is doing now.

KingEric7 said:
If anything, it is even more staggering that he stands out amongst other incredibly gifted individuals
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It really isn't. Great players shine even brighter amongst a collection of super stars. that's a given.

However it takes far more for a great player whilst surrounded by merely good and ok players, to outshine other greats surrounded by super stars, whilst competing on the same plane. Or to do it Pele style and shine brightest amongst super stars when you are just a wee teenager. Then continue to do so till you retire. Messi has loads to do before the can math them to fellas. I assure you.

If he makes it I'll be very happy. For the last persons who had a chance, namely Ronaldo Da Lima and Ronaldinho, were stopped by injury and lack of motivation respectively.

& in selfish sense, Id like us to stop having too look back to the 'great old days' to pick a player at the top end of the football legend pyramid. It would be nice to have one in this era.:D
 
KingEric7 said:
It's a difficult one, this. Messi's productivity is so outrageous that I'm not even convinced it is possible for him to have the influence on build up that he did at times, say, a few years ago.

Saying that, prior to this post, I was looking over Maradona's goalscoring statistics and noticed that he also had a ratio of over 1 goal every 2 matches, though Messi's looks a bit better so far.

They're both just fecking amazing really, aren't they?
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Absolutely... freaks, both of them.

Boss said:
Fair play, out of interest besides Maradona who do you reckon was Napoli's best players?
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Not having benefitted from a consecutive viewing of games from seasons, but rather a game here and a game there, I'd say that Careca was a stand-out partner in crime with Maradona going forward... Ciro Ferrara was starting to shine for Napoli when he got called up for Italy, and he looked solid in the matches I've seen... to be honest though, I'll admit to intensely studying Maradona in the matches I've seen, so I've not got a ready-to-go rolladex of memorable moments from other other players like I do with Diego, despite noticing that he of course wasn't hauling a no-hope team to league wins, which I would hope I didn't seem to imply.

Boss said:
Eriku...
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Mmh?
 
Eriku said:
Not having benefitted from a consecutive viewing of games from seasons, but rather a game here and a game there, I'd say that Careca was a stand-out partner in crime with Maradona going forward... Ciro Ferrara was starting to shine for Napoli when he got called up for Italy, and he looked solid in the matches I've seen... to be honest though, I'll admit to intensely studying Maradona in the matches I've seen, so I've not got a ready-to-go rolladex of memorable moments from other other players like I do with Diego, despite noticing that he of course wasn't hauling a no-hope team to league wins, which I would hope I didn't seem to imply.
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Very interesting.......


Cheers.
 
Boss said:
Lets put it this way, if Messi was signed back then, you don't reckon he wouldv'e lifted Napoli either?
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I'm sure he wouldn't.

Boss said:
Was Maradona surrounded by pure shit or was he the catalyst to success.
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He wasn't surrounded by shit. But he did the equivalent of the current Everton signing a Messi and wining more than once the league and then adding UEFA cup in his time there. Taking the piss whilst doing it. Then he leaves and they don't win a thing again for more than a decade and even get relegated down to below the championship.

In short Maradona brought success with him. He wasn't just a catalyst, for when he left, so did it.

Boss said:
but when it comes to individual ability my mind is firmly made up.
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Fair enough. So is mine. In this era I take only Ronaldinho and a 1998 Ronaldo as closest to Maradona in this era in terms of individual ability. I had not seen grace and dominance mixed together like that since Diego's hey day.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I'm sure he wouldn't.

He wasn't surrounded by shit. But he did the equivalent of the current Everton signing a Messi and wining more than once the league and then adding UEFA cup in his time there. Taking the piss whilst doing it. Then he leaves and they don't win a thing again for more than a decade and even get relegated down to below the championship.

In short Maradona brought success with him. He wasn't just a catalyst, for when he left, so did it.

Fair enough. So is mine. In this era I take only Ronaldinho as closest to Maradona in this era in terms of individual ability.
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A fair assessment, to me.

God how I would love for Messi's passing range and influence to increase so that he'd look like those two, though... even if it did mean a dry spill for United in the ECL.
 
Ringo 07 said:
Theres probably not much difference between Messi and Maradona skill wise,assist wise and speed wise etc but the big difference is that Messi will go on to do it more consistently without constant drama and thats why he will more than likely be remembered as the greatest when he retires until Ravel Morrison overtakes him some years after of course!
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Lord help us if an English man ever proves as good as Messi:lol:

I'd love your dream to happen for United's sake though regardless:D
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I'm sure he wouldn't.

He wasn't surrounded by shit. But he did the equivalent of the current Everton signing a Messi and wining more than once the league and then adding UEFA cup in his time there. Taking the piss whilst doing it. Then he leaves and they don't win a thing again for more than a decade and even get relegated down to below the championship.

In short Maradona brought success with him. He wasn't just a catalyst, for when he left, so did it.

Fair enough. So is mine. In this era I take only Ronaldinho as closest to Maradona in this era in terms of individual ability.
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Word?

What position was Napoli before 'Dona signed?

Besides they didn't just sign Maradona, wasn't it a sqaud rebuilt?!
 
We have Mads Møller Dæhli coming through... a Messi-Xavi hybrid, according to what must be muppety scouting reports.
 
Boss said:
Word?

What position was Napoli before 'Dona signed?

Besides they didn't just sign Maradona, wasn't it a sqaud rebuilt?!
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According to Wiki they were 8th... 10 from 1st place, 8 from the last safe spot before relegation.

And why did they go straight from 1st to 8th place once Maradona had left? Was it a squad sold away piece by piece over the summer?

He was clearly the one who got them to that height.
 
Eriku said:
According to Wiki they were 8th... 10 from 1st place, 8 from the last safe spot before relegation.

And why did they go straight from 1st to 8th place once Maradona had left? Was it a squad sold away piece by piece over the summer?

He was clearly the one who got them to that height.
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because they lost their best and most inspirational player in the most dramatic way?

The way you lads make it sound I'm surprised they didn't go from 1st to 20th, jeez!
 
marchi-91 said:
The premier league is overrated, but La Liga is drastically overrated.
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By who?

Eriku said:
According to Wiki they were 8th... 10 from 1st place, 8 from the last safe spot before relegation.

And why did they go straight from 1st to 8th place once Maradona had left? Was it a squad sold away piece by piece over the summer?

He was clearly the one who got them to that height.
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They signed him in 84 didn't they?

12th place in 83/84, one point above the relegation zone, and 10th in 82/83, 2 points above the relegation zone.
 
If Maradona was a one man team who single handedly took a crap side to the title, as some are seemingly claiming (lets ignore this is the 3rd largest Italian city, and they could afford a world record fee to sign him), why did they only win the league twice in 7 seasons he was there? Or take 3 seasons to capture the first?
 
Boss said:
Word?

What position was Napoli before 'Dona signed?
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Relegation battles. Yet within 2 years of Maradona's arrival they were wining the league.


Boss said:
Besides they didn't just sign Maradona, wasn't it a squad rebuilt?!
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Not by much. Think the current Everton adding 3 players and then Messi to their ranks over the next few seasons. Then they beat a super star studded Man United under Mourinho, Chelsea, Man city, Liverpool, and Arsenal to the title. Simply because they have Messi.
 
Boss said:
because they lost their best and most inspirational player in the most dramatic way?

The way you lads make it sound I'm surprised they didn't go from 1st to 20th, jeez!
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Them falling well short of winning the league happened before the big profiles aside from Maradona got shipped off en masse... and the way you read what we say it seems like that... all I ever said was that they weren't close to dominating Italian football or winning European honours outside the Maradona years... That's not the same as saying they're set for relegation and Serie C once Maradona fecks off, or however you want us to seem to portray it. Too much artistic licence on your part, chappy.

Brwned said:
They signed him in 84 didn't they?

12th place in 83/84, one point above the relegation zone, and 10th in 82/83, 2 points above the relegation zone.
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My bad, I took the stat from his first season. Cheers for correcting that.
 
A bit off-topic but why is it that people need to bang in 40 odd goals a season to be proclaimed the best in the world?

Are goals really the measuring stick for these comparisons? I personally prefer to watch Messi's ability and talent on the ball rather than his goalscoring prowess (which is a by-product of his ability). Scoring goals is the name of the game but I absolutely hate the need to use it as a way of tagging who the best players in the world are. Perhaps it's a measure of saying who the most productive players in the world are, but certainly not the best players in the world. I'd rather pay to see someone who captures the imagination with his talent time and time again on the biggest of stages, and use that as a barometer to rate his level in relation to other players compared to his ability just to stick the ball in the back of the net.
 
B Cantona said:
why did they only win the league once in 7 seasons he was there? Or take 3 seasons to capture the first?
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He was never a one man team. He was however a one man bringer of success.

After Napoli signed him:
85-85 finish third in Serie A
They won the double in 1986/87
87/88 League runners up
won the UEFA cup in 1988/89 finishing as league runner up
won the Serie A again in 1989/90

the year of his suspension and departure they finished 8th.

After he left after brief respite of a few years they almost collapsed into oblivion.

We don't even have to mention what Argentina has suffered since he stopped playing for them.
 
TheHorse'sMouth said:
A bit off-topic but why is it that people need to bang in 40 odd goals a season to be proclaimed the best in the world?

Are goals really the measuring stick for these comparisons? I personally prefer to watch Messi's ability and talent on the ball rather than his goalscoring prowess (which is a by-product of his ability). Scoring goals is the name of the game but I absolutely hate the need to use it as a way of tagging who the best players in the world are. Perhaps it's a measure of saying who the most productive players in the world are, but certainly not the best players in the world. I'd rather pay to someone who captures the imagination with his talent time and time again on the biggest of stages, and use that as a barometer to rate his level in relation to other players compared to his ability just to stick the ball in the back of the net.
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I agree, for me Messi's goal scoring is just the icing on the cake.

He doeesn't even half to score half of what he does for me to rate him as the best in the world, because taht's just how superior his all round game is.

Some of his best performances came back in the day when he didn't use to score all these goals.
 
I thought Messi failed somewhat at the World Cup, Maradona gave him the chance to be the next Maradona and Messi was average for Messi in the group stages(yeah he was good, but come on nothing compared to what he shows on the reg for Barca. Sure they came up against a strong German side but to look that far out ideas, and get annihilated showed to me that Messi isnt Maradona, not yet. For that matter, when did he pass all the others. His stats are ridiculous, and yes he certainly could go down as the greatest ever, but at this point he needs to lift Argentina to the world cup and its not like they dont have a good team either
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
He was never a one man team. He was however a one man bringer of success.

After Napoli signed him:
85-85 finish third in Serie A
They won the double in 1986/87
87/88 League runners up
won the UEFA cup in 1988/89 finishing as league runner up
won the Serie A again in 1989/90

the year of his suspension and departure they finished 8th.

After he left after brief respite of a few years they almost collapsed into oblivion.

We don't even have to mention what Argentina has suffered since he stopped playing for them.
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They had financial issues down the line. Needless to say though Chief, if they could afford to set a world record fee to sign him, and other very good players alongside, there's only so far you can push the minnows card

I'm not knocking him for his fantastic achievement, I'm just not sure where this comes in as a stick to beat Messi with? Pele didn't play for a side up against regular top opposition in competitive ties... and we consider him the best or second best player ever
 
Boss said:
I agree, for me Messi's goal scoring is just the icing on the cake.

He doeesn't even half to score half of what he does for me to rate him as the best in the world, because taht's just how superior his all round game is.

Some of his best performances came back in the day when he didn't use to score all these goals.
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We don't about the likes of Best, Zidane, Maradona and Cruijff being exceptional goalscorers, but because they captured the imagination of millions of football fans around the world. It just seems in the last 10 years or so, goalscoring has taken on unprecedented importance because of the financial opportunities at stake for clubs..
 
i think is way too early to compare messi with maradona

it doesnt have to do with the world cup maradona won or the way he lead napoli to win two scudettos and one uefa cup

it has to do with comparing a player that ended his career with someone that just started it

maradona, is the best player i ever saw, i think messi can get there, but still he has a long distance to travel

it doesn¡t matter if he wins the world cup or not, is more about consistency, is about playing the way he is doing now for 15 years or so
 
marcosdeto said:
i think is way too early to compare messi with maradona

it doesnt have to do with the world cup maradona won or the way he lead napoli to win two scudettos and one uefa cup

it has to do with comparing a player that ended his career with someone that just started it

maradona, is the best player i ever saw, i think messi can get there, but still he has a long distance to travel

it doesn¡t matter if he wins the world cup or not, is more about consistency, is about playing the way he is doing now for 15 years or so
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I endorse this post.
 
marcosdeto said:
i think is way too early to compare messi with maradona

it doesnt have to do with the world cup maradona won or the way he lead napoli to win two scudettos and one uefa cup

it has to do with comparing a player that ended his career with someone that just started it

maradona, is the best player i ever saw, i think messi can get there, but still he has a long distance to travel

it doesn¡t matter if he wins the world cup or not, is more about consistency, is about playing the way he is doing now for 15 years or so
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Marcos, do River fans love Maradona in the same way as the rest of Argentina? I wonder if a Liverpool player would carry the same adulation amongst United fans, for example.
 
Boss said:
is this some strange type of reverse psychology?, plus don't you reckon you're starting to follow me around a bit much these days?
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I'm just helping you out Boss.

I don't see why all of you get so defensive about La Liga players. Respond with sense rather than getting wound up, it gives people the wrong impression. Just a piece of advice. Your choice to follow it of course.

Apologies if you feel targeted or something. Not intended.
 
Alex said:
I thought Messi failed somewhat at the World Cup, Maradona gave him the chance to be the next Maradona and Messi was average for Messi in the group stages(yeah he was good, but come on nothing compared to what he shows on the reg for Barca. Sure they came up against a strong German side but to look that far out ideas, and get annihilated showed to me that Messi isnt Maradona, not yet. For that matter, when did he pass all the others. His stats are ridiculous, and yes he certainly could go down as the greatest ever, but at this point he needs to lift Argentina to the world cup and its not like they dont have a good team either
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He's (now) 23 Alex

Put into context, Maradona hadn't signed for Napoli yet, and his first world cup was a promising disapointment
 
Alex said:
I thought Messi failed somewhat at the World Cup, Maradona gave him the chance to be the next Maradona and Messi was average for Messi in the group stages(yeah he was good, but come on nothing compared to what he shows on the reg for Barca. Sure they came up against a strong German side but to look that far out ideas, and get annihilated showed to me that Messi isnt Maradona, not yet. For that matter, when did he pass all the others. His stats are ridiculous, and yes he certainly could go down as the greatest ever, but at this point he needs to lift Argentina to the world cup and its not like they dont have a good team either
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I honestly don't think Maradona got the best out of him, even from the qualifiers he had no clue how to use him.

In the world cup I thought he played him way too deep. Now he's being utilised in his more natural Barca position, being afforded the time to do most damage in the final third and it's why his form for Argentina has been it's best since 2007.

With this current coach (or any half decent manager) I'm sure you would see the best out of Messi in his Argentina colors from now on.
 
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