Lionel Messi

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Cristiano Ronaldo has showed his quality in big games for his national team. At Euro 2004 his performance against Spain was fantastic, he put Joaquin and Vicente in the shade that night, making everyone on a worldwide scale sit up and really take notice of his abilities. He scored in the Semi final against Holland that tournament as well. At the age of just 19 don't forget.

Ronaldo scored 2 goals vs Russia in a crucial World Cup qualifier. Also, in the World Cup 06 Semi Final vs France, he wasn't hindered in showing his talent. In a match with Zidane, Deco, Henry and Figo on the pitch, Ronaldo was the one who was always demanding the ball and attacking the opposition defence not scared by the magnitude of the occasion.

SAF has said recently there is a growing improvement in Ronaldo's game in terms of his maturity when in possession of the ball, experience brings this maturity, this will benefit him in big pressure games. He will be able to use all of the good and bad experiences that he has built up at a younger age to help him when he gets to his mid to late 20s where hopefully the conditions will be perfect for him to combine his athleticism and then vast experience.
 
Xavi was not no where near the same player as today. Neither were Overmars, Petit, Kluivert in the same legaue as Etoo, or Deco.
Ronaldo was dead to Barca fans when he signed for Real. I am talking about Rivaldo. Though I am not sure about this one myself. Ronaldinhio, if I had to choose one but I won't shout down someone saying Rivaldo was better than him.

Sorry i ment Rivaldo not Ronaldo! But yeah really hard argument!
 
He had Figo, Luis Enrique, Guardiola, Kluivert, Xavi, Overmars, Petit to name a few. He had good players around him and was given all the credit he deserves, it was the fact the Ronaldinho was so good he made them forget about Ronaldo! Whether he had season that was better than Ronaldinho's best season for Barca, i guess it's just a preference of opinions.

Some good players yes, but that Barca team was hamstrung by a quite awful defence. Past-it types like De Boer and Abelardo combined with converted midfielders like Gabri and Cocu meant the defence conceded a shed load of goals. Some of the miracles performed by Rivaldo to get that team competitive are often under-recognised.
 
Some good players yes, but that Barca team was hamstrung by a quite awful defence. Past-it types like De Boer and Abelardo combined with converted midfielders like Gabri and Cocu meant the defence conceded a shed load of goals. Some of the miracles performed by Rivaldo to get that team competitive are often under-recognised.

Yes i agree, but Rivaldo went into a team that had quality, then was surrounded by an attempt to bring through youth quality like Madrid tried, which they both failed in (I.e. players like Geremi for Madrid, and player like Giovanni at hull, Simao, Motta etc). He had the best of both a once good squad which was spoilt by unnsuccesful transfers. Ronaldinho do remeber came into a squad that was on the decline and they brought him to bring them back glory. When he came their was still players lik Gabri and Motta around, which bemused me to why he picked them over us...
 
Xavi was not no where near the same player as today. Neither were Overmars, Petit, Kluivert in the same legaue as Etoo, or Deco.
Ronaldo was dead to Barca fans when he signed for Real. I am talking about Rivaldo. Though I am not sure about this one myself. Ronaldinhio, if I had to choose one but I won't shout down someone saying Rivaldo was better than him.

Rivaldo's barca were largely considered favourites for the european cup two years straight. They had a very strong side. Cocu, Luis Enrique and Guardiola was as good a central midfield you could want and the understanding up front between Figo, Kluivert and Rivaldo was sublime. Kluivert might not have been all that but under Van Gaal, he brought out the best in both Rivaldo and Figo.

I don't think Rivaldo can complain about the quality of the team around him at the time (defence notwithstanding).
 
Barring injury or a catastrophic dip in form there is only one player that will be regarded as this generations greatest player and he wears the 7 for Manchester United.

Messi is a world class player but Ronaldo is in an all together different league. How can a midfield player (his position for most of his games) score 42 goals, it is unprecedented. He has already won everything you can win in England and my money is on Manchester United retaining the European Cup, when that happens he will become a true legend in the same way as Best, Charlton, Law and Cantona, amongst many others.

The thing about legends is that we only really appreciate them when they are gone and trust me, when he does go, we will look back at his tenure at Manchester United as the greatest we have seen from a United player in most of our lifetimes.

Comparing Messi and Ronaldo is a moot point IMO as Ronaldo is not just a better player, he is in a league of his own, we are just spoilt because we see him every week. He is without doubt the player of his generation and if he stays with us and performs equal or better than he has done, then I believe he has the potential to be regarded as our greatest ever player.

I hope that is the case (especially the retaining the European Cup part). :devil:
 
Barring injury or a catastrophic dip in form there is only one player that will be regarded as this generations greatest player and he wears the 7 for Manchester United.

Messi is a world class player but Ronaldo is in an all together different league. How can a midfield player (his position for most of his games) score 42 goals, it is unprecedented. He has already won everything you can win in England and my money is on Manchester United retaining the European Cup, when that happens he will become a true legend in the same way as Best, Charlton, Law and Cantona, amongst many others.

The thing about legends is that we only really appreciate them when they are gone and trust me, when he does go, we will look back at his tenure at Manchester United as the greatest we have seen from a United player in most of our lifetimes.

Comparing Messi and Ronaldo is a moot point IMO as Ronaldo is not just a better player, he is in a league of his own, we are just spoilt because we see him every week. He is without doubt the player of his generation and if he stays with us and performs equal or better than he has done, then I believe he has the potential to be regarded as our greatest ever player.

I hope that is the case (especially the retaining the European Cup part). :devil:
That can only be an opinion of someone who does not watches Messi regularly.
 
Rivaldo's barca were largely considered favourites for the european cup two years straight. They had a very strong side. Cocu, Luis Enrique and Guardiola was as good a central midfield you could want and the understanding up front between Figo, Kluivert and Rivaldo was sublime. Kluivert might not have been all that but under Van Gaal, he brought out the best in both Rivaldo and Figo.

I don't think Rivaldo can complain about the quality of the team around him at the time (defence notwithstanding).
That still does not mean anything. Ronaldo has never won the European cup despite playing alongside loads of quality players. Infact he has only won the league once!
 
SAF has said recently there is a growing improvement in Ronaldo's game in terms of his maturity when in possession of the ball, experience brings this maturity, this will benefit him in big pressure games. He will be able to use all of the good and bad experiences that he has built up at a younger age to help him when he gets to his mid to late 20s where hopefully the conditions will be perfect for him to combine his athleticism and then vast experience.

True, and that's the good news. The bad news is that it may not be for United.
 
That still does not mean anything. Ronaldo has never won the European cup despite playing alongside loads of quality players. Infact he has only won the league once!

My argument was simply that I don't think the 'with better players he would have shone more' argument holds up when it comes to Rivaldo.
 
My argument was simply that I don't think the 'with better players he would have shone more' argument holds up when it comes to Rivaldo.
Actually it was about if Rivaldo could have won more with better players. I was wrong on that one anyway, he just did not win the European cup with Barca. I remember him more for his last years at Barca when he was pulling them through just to make the top 4.
 
As for Ronaldo's comparison with Messi, its similar to the likes of Rummenigge, Zico, Platini and Matthaus being compared with Maradona. They were all competing with Deigo at one point of their career or another but could not sustain it for long.

As bottler pointed out few days back, Ronaldo is a great player but Messi is in a league of his own.
 
Actually it was about if Rivaldo could have won more with better players. I was wrong on that one anyway, he just did not win the European cup with Barca. I remember him more for his last years at Barca when he was pulling them through just to make the top 4.

That final matchday hattrick against Valencia to secure CL qualification at Valencia's expence was as good a performance as you'll ever see.
 
Rubbish...

sums up how much you've watched him.
Tee hee, I have watched him enough. I know he had a shot off the post in that match, something Ronaldo did a lot during the first three seasons with us. Other than that only couple of runs which did not produce anything. His class was there for everyone to see but he did not run Chelsea ragged as some people here would put it.
 
you're talking about Maradona at his peak though. He was good in spain, but not quite the unstoppable force he became later on. And he struggled when he first came to Italy.

Messi doesn't have those qualities at this point, but Maradona didn't always have them either.

I don't think he will ever match diego's passing and vision, but dribblingwise I think he's comparable. And he certainly has that tenacity and drive to do great things as Maradona did.
I have tapes of Maradona from his YWC days through to Boca and then Spain before he went to Italy and his skill level was always there, but he had a very bad reaction to persistant fouling at a younger age and would lash out. His skills didn't improve as he aged - his maturity did.

The 'Butcher of Bilbao' almost ended his career as well, which you've got to throw into this reasoning about Spain.

Messi, by no means whatsoever, has Maradona's drive, charisma or courage. At a fundamental level, before considering his all round game, this is a huge problem for him, I think.

If a game isn't going well for his sides and no one else is lifting it, Messi isn't going to grab the bull by the horns and simply take over the match and become the conduit for everything positive his team does. He'll play his part, definitely, but he doesn't have it about him to become the man on the pitch like a Maradona, Cruyff or even Baggio did.

Del Piero had this quality in spades at Juventus pre-injury and as United fans, we should know better than anybody how devestating he was before he got shafted.
Robben and giggs are just not in the same league as the midget argentinians when it comes to dribbling.

Neither was del piero as a player. Phenomenal player and certainly one of the most wellrounded and complete attacking players you would find, but he simply never had that extra x-factor to take him from being one of the best in the world to one of the alltime. Messi does, as did Ronaldo, Romario, Zidane and Ronaldinho in recent years.

Placcy, Figo, Rivaldo, Shevchenko, Nedved, Henry might have been the best players in the world at one point or another but they also didn't have that extra bit of magic to be remembered with the same reverence.
Del Piero, without question had the 'x-factor' at club level, the question at the time was why he couldn't do it for the Azzurri and that's where questions arose on his ability to become an all-time, world great. I have no idea why you've bracketed Rivaldo who was easily on par with Zidane, in a second bracket.

Zidane's myth has been cemented by the teams he played in which allowed him to coast for half seasons at a time. Even his world cup legend is bogus - he barely played in the tournament and had only one good game - the final. His only tournament of true note is the EC 2000, where he was what you expect of a true great - except in the final.


I don't think it's that controversial to be honest. I think Brazilian Ronaldo was slightly better at his best but the Portuguese one is an amazing footballer as well. The only reason why some people think they cannot be compared is that Brazilian Ronaldo belongs to the past, and people believe that the past is always better than present.
There is no 'slightly' about it.

You've clearly not seen Fat Ron in his pomp outside of some clips and the odd highlight.

He was being bracketed with the likes of Maradona pre-injury. Cristiano isn't close to having the same accolades put upon him.

If there's one thing i have to say about our ronnie, its that he's not the best player by any means, not now, not ever.

however, he is by far the most complete attacker ever. There are no weaknesses in his game. Well, almost none anyway. He may not have the dribbling of messi, may not have the flair of ronaldinho,not the ball control of zidane, not the rocket shots of scholes, not the speed of henry (at his prime), not the predatory instincts of ruud, not the finishing clinicality of ole, not the strength of drogba, not the heading of cahill, not the speed/explosiveness of fat ronaldo, not the playmaking of bergkamp, not the twofootedness of zola, not the free kicks of beckham, not the audacity of cantona, and not the big game ability of fletcher.

But get this....he is just one notch below all of the above in every aspect of his/their game, and he's getting better. The fact that I have had to use so many different players to demonstrate his "not as good" ability, says something in itself. He is not the best in anything, he is the most rounded and complete. Perhaps, that's what makes him better than, yes....messi.
For a player with 'no weaknesses in his game' he sure is quiet when up against the big teams...

Absurd statement, he has lots to work on.

I don't think many people do talk about Messi as a big game player though.

Ronaldo, Zidane, Giggs etc. were all big game players which is why they are mentioned, but I don't think many regard Messi as a big game player yet.

He was great against us as well though, which would make the claim a bit more credible. I can't think of many others that stick out in memory, besides the ones against Chelsea and one against Celtic. Against Sevilla he scored both goals to give them the 2-1 win and he was masterful in that game, although I'm not sure Sevilla are of the quality of the top four here.

Messi's a bigger big game player than Ronaldo, but I don't think either of them has been anything special in crunch ties to date.

Lots of unwarranted hyperbole about them both, unfortunately.
 
Tee hee, I have watched him enough. I know he had a shot off the post in that match, something Ronaldo did a lot during the first three seasons with us. Other than that only couple of runs which did not produce anything. His class was there for everyone to see but he did not run Chelsea ragged as some people here would put it.

Nah...He was the only player who took apart Chelsea's defence and midfield under Maureen a bit of objectivity can tell you that. In Ronaldo's first three seasons, his good matches were few and far between with his decision making taking the beating more often than not. Messi's class got underlined ever since he made his debut at Barca. Its hard to find a 18 or 19 year footballer tearing teams apart playing his natural game.
 
Messi, by no means whatsoever, has Maradona's drive, charisma or courage. At a fundamental level, before considering his all round game, this is a huge problem for him, I think.

If a game isn't going well for his sides and no one else is lifting it, Messi isn't going to grab the bull by the horns and simply take over the match and become the conduit for everything positive his team does. He'll play his part, definitely, but he doesn't have it about him to become the man on the pitch like a Maradona, Cruyff or even Baggio did.

I think you are wrong about Messi. He may lack charisma in that he is a bit of an introvert and doesn't seek the limelight. Basically he doesn't like much outside of football and that is what he does best. Also i wouldn't say he lacks drive, he has changed things in his normal life and training schedule to over come the injuries that have set him back so far. Anyone who seen how devistated he was when he got the same injury for the 3rd time would see he has drive.

Messi has over taken matches plenty of times, he hasn't played in a final yet apart from the copa america where his argies team were crushed by brazil.

Regardless i don't know for sure not having been in a position to watch every game played by Maradona, Cruyff etc (but then in those days only fans of those exact clubs would be able to watch all the games anyway, it was pre big TV and live coverage like you get now) but when they burst onto the scene i reckon they were looked at has great players at a young age but not until they got to a certain age, maturity that they started to dominate games as you so speak.
 
Nah...He was the only player who took apart Chelsea's defence and midfield under Maureen a bit of objectivity can tell you that. In Ronaldo's first three seasons, his good matches were few and far between with his decision making taking the beating more often than not. Messi's class got underlined ever since he made his debut at Barca. Its hard to find a 18 or 19 year footballer tearing teams apart playing his natural game.

This was the best defense in the world and Messi had them all over the place. Got a man sent off and was a constant thorn. For a 18/19 year old coming up against the best defense in world football at the time and give that sort of performance at stamford bridge too was showing something a bit special.
 
Barring injury or a catastrophic dip in form there is only one player that will be regarded as this generations greatest player and he wears the 7 for Manchester United.

Messi is a world class player but Ronaldo is in an all together different league. How can a midfield player (his position for most of his games) score 42 goals, it is unprecedented. He has already won everything you can win in England and my money is on Manchester United retaining the European Cup, when that happens he will become a true legend in the same way as Best, Charlton, Law and Cantona, amongst many others.

The thing about legends is that we only really appreciate them when they are gone and trust me, when he does go, we will look back at his tenure at Manchester United as the greatest we have seen from a United player in most of our lifetimes.

Comparing Messi and Ronaldo is a moot point IMO as Ronaldo is not just a better player, he is in a league of his own, we are just spoilt because we see him every week. He is without doubt the player of his generation and if he stays with us and performs equal or better than he has done, then I believe he has the potential to be regarded as our greatest ever player.

I hope that is the case (especially the retaining the European Cup part). :devil:

What a pile of biased bollocks.
 
I think you are wrong about Messi. He may lack charisma in that he is a bit of an introvert and doesn't seek the limelight. Basically he doesn't like much outside of football and that is what he does best. Also i wouldn't say he lacks drive, he has changed things in his normal life and training schedule to over come the injuries that have set him back so far. Anyone who seen how devistated he was when he got the same injury for the 3rd time would see he has drive.

Messi has over taken matches plenty of times, he hasn't played in a final yet apart from the copa america where his argies team were crushed by brazil.

Regardless i don't know for sure not having been in a position to watch every game played by Maradona, Cruyff etc (but then in those days only fans of those exact clubs would be able to watch all the games anyway, it was pre big TV and live coverage like you get now) but when they burst onto the scene i reckon they were looked at has great players at a young age but not until they got to a certain age, maturity that they started to dominate games as you so speak.

You need that drive to decide things.

There isn't a great that can be named that didn't have it in some capacity. If there's one thing I'll agree with about our Ron is that he has that drive you see in the greatest players to make the absolute best of himself and his ability. I've seen Messi's head drop a number of times when he should be going the other way and elevating those around him, not going down with the ship.

Of course, again, this is relative to the comparisons being made. When you talk about the likes of Maradona and Cruyff, these things enter any equation.


Messi, like Ronaldo, does the majority of his damage when his team is on top. Can you name some great games from him when his team were on the brink of losing a big match and his impact or presence alone turned the tables and could be said to have decisively altered the game?

Say, ala Keane in Turin, for one example. It's things like those that remove any questions about a players' greatness, in my opinion. You either dominate from the front and take over a game from the first minute to the last, or you are the one that turns games in your teams favour, and the truest greats of them all did both.
 
I have tapes of Maradona from his YWC days through to Boca and then Spain before he went to Italy and his skill level was always there, but he had a very bad reaction to persistant fouling at a younger age and would lash out. His skills didn't improve as he aged - his maturity did.

The 'Butcher of Bilbao' almost ended his career as well, which you've got to throw into this reasoning about Spain.

Messi, by no means whatsoever, has Maradona's drive, charisma or courage. At a fundamental level, before considering his all round game, this is a huge problem for him, I think.

Maradona was treated more shabbily in Spain than in his early Napoli days. I have watched many Maradona's matches at Barca, it was like he played in a free role behind the strikers. Their tactic was like Schuster hoofing the ball from behind with Maradona holding the ball up and setting up goals for the strikers and many a time had to deal with five or six players hacking him down constantly.

Everytime he glided more than 10 yards his shins and ankles got kicked out, defenders getting away without booked even for nasty tackles from behind and tiring him with constant fouls yet maintained his composure, never a drama queen before the ref. Nevertheless even in those nine months he played at Barca he scored 38 goals and set up 41 from according to his official videography.

In contrast Fat Ronaldo in his Barca days was made to run with the ball and cleaned every other team apart, a Maradona kind of treatment would've floored him to retirement with in a season.
 
Maradona was treated more shabbily in Spain than in his early Napoli days. I have watched many Maradona's matches at Barca, it was like he played in a free role behind the strikers. Their tactic was like Schuster hoofing the ball from behind with Maradona holding the ball up and setting up goals for the strikers and many a time had to deal with five or six players hacking him down constantly.

Everytime he glided more than 10 yards his shins and ankles got kicked out, defenders getting away without booked even for nasty tackles from behind and tiring him with constant fouls yet maintained his composure, never a drama queen before the ref. Nevertheless even in those nine months he played at Barca he scored 38 goals and set up 41 from according to his official videography.

In contrast Fat Ronaldo in his Barca days was made to run with the ball and cleaned every other team apart, a Maradona kind of treatment would've floored him to retirement with in a season.

It could be fairly argued that Maradona could have been even better than he proved to be after the ankle reconstruction.

He was faster before the op' than after it. He got shit kicked out of him in Spain.
 
Messi, like Ronaldo, does the majority of his damage when his team is on top. Can you name some great games from him when his team were on the brink of losing a big match and his impact or presence alone turned the tables and could be said to have decisively altered the game?

His hatrick against Real Madrid that saved Barca and also in the Bernabeu easily the best player on the pitch even with Ronaldinho, Eto and beefed up Galaticos playing around him before he got subbed and many more matches this season. In the 06/07 season he almost carried Barca to the league win even with both Ronaldinho and Eto crocked up.

An 18 ro 19 year old Messi tearing apart the likes of Juventus, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Werder Brehmen, Villareal, Valencia etc..effortlessly not any one barring Fat Ronaldo and Giggs in their early days were as electrifying as him.

As for this Messi versus Ronaldo comparision, Ronaldo is completely rendered ineffective against organized defending, In the last couple of seasons he has improved on his composure to score goals even if he is pedestrain through out a match, but not a kind of player who can dominate against opposition and every time he comes across a reputed fullback he lands in their back pocket reduced more to an impact player.

When the stakes gets high on either sides, attacking players constantly hacked down by organized defending only few can raise their game to the next level that splits up the great ones from the rest - the real big match players. A stark contrast that differentiates between Henry and the likes Zidane or Fat Ronaldo. Of the current lot only Messi if he remains injury free can apparently surpass the levels of Laudrup, Zidane and Ronaldo.
 
You need that drive to decide things.

There isn't a great that can be named that didn't have it in some capacity. If there's one thing I'll agree with about our Ron is that he has that drive you see in the greatest players to make the absolute best of himself and his ability. I've seen Messi's head drop a number of times when he should be going the other way and elevating those around him, not going down with the ship.

Of course, again, this is relative to the comparisons being made. When you talk about the likes of Maradona and Cruyff, these things enter any equation.


Messi, like Ronaldo, does the majority of his damage when his team is on top. Can you name some great games from him when his team were on the brink of losing a big match and his impact or presence alone turned the tables and could be said to have decisively altered the game?

Say, ala Keane in Turin, for one example. It's things like those that remove any questions about a players' greatness, in my opinion. You either dominate from the front and take over a game from the first minute to the last, or you are the one that turns games in your teams favour, and the truest greats of them all did both.

You are talking about prime players, Keane in his prime, Cruyff in his prime and Maradona in his prime. If Messi is in his prime at 20/21 and Ronaldo at 23/24 then I worry about the future of the game.

Messi has had games where he has blown opposition away. The most obvious one being the game he scored a hat-trick against Madrid when his team was always down in the game.

Messis last two performances in the league have been him either dominating the entire game (Valladolid) or changing a game in your teams favour (Recreativo). Or what about his champions league performances, he comes off the bench when they are down 1-0 to Shakhtar and scores two to win the game for his team.

His performances have been match winning, dominating and table turning so far this seasons. He has inherited the number 10 shirt from Ronaldinho and is carrying it well.

Even his maturity has improved. He never goes to ground and he rides tackles very well. If someone is pulling his shirt he wriggles free and continues his bombardment. It takes very cynical fouls to stop him and while I’m not comparing him to Maradona etc in his ability to take a kick/ride a challenge but I am saying for a modern day footballer where players go to ground at the slightest contact he is a breath of fresh air. He stays on his feet and even when he is constantly fouled he just gets on with it. He should be respected for that at least.
 
This was the best defense in the world and Messi had them all over the place. Got a man sent off and was a constant thorn. For a 18/19 year old coming up against the best defense in world football at the time and give that sort of performance at stamford bridge too was showing something a bit special.

Eerm, those games had certain Ronaldinho and Eto'o Fils in fine form running the show. Ronald "I just got fat" inho in particular was next to unplayable
 
Eerm, those games had certain Ronaldinho and Eto'o Fils in fine form running the show. Ronald "I just got fat" inho in particular was next to unplayable

"Messi had been Barcelona's outstanding performer, and he almost put them in front with a stunning curling drive after 72 minutes that rebounded to safety off the bar."

Taken from the BBC sport website.
 
His hatrick against Real Madrid that saved Barca and also in the Bernabeu easily the he was the best player on the pitch even with Ronaldinho, Eto and beefed up Galaticos playing around him before he got subbed and many more matches this season. In the 05/06 season he almost carried Barca to the league win even with both Ronaldinho and Eto crocked up.

An 18 ro 19 year old Messi tearing apart the likes of Juventus, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Werder Brehmen, Villareal, Valencia etc..effortlessly not any one barring Fat Ronaldo and Giggs in their early days were as electrifying than him.

As for this Messi versus Ronaldo comparision, Ronaldo is completely rendered ineffective against organized defending, In the last couple of seasons he has improved on his composure to score goals even if he is pedestrain through out a match, but not a kind of player who can dominate against opposition and every time he comes a reputed fullback he lands in their back pocket reduced more to an impact player.

When the stakes gets high on either sides, attacking players constantly hacked down by organized defending only few can raise their game to the next level that splits up the great ones from the rest - the real big match players. A starking contrast that differentiates between Henry and Zidane or Fat Ronaldo. Of the current lot only Messi if he remains injury free can apparently surpass the levels of Laudrup, Zidane and Ronaldo.
I wouldn;t agree with the listed teams. RM have been shite for a long while now and their defence is atrocious

But I agree with most of your post except the surpassing Ronaldo bit. He won't do that, imo.

You are talking about prime players, Keane in his prime, Cruyff in his prime and Maradona in his prime. If Messi is in his prime at 20/21 and Ronaldo at 23/24 then I worry about the future of the game.

Messi has had games where he has blown opposition away. The most obvious one being the game he scored a hat-trick against Madrid when his team was always down in the game.

Messis last two performances in the league have been him either dominating the entire game (Valladolid) or changing a game in your teams favour (Recreativo). Or what about his champions league performances, he comes off the bench when they are down 1-0 to Shakhtar and scores two to win the game for his team.

His performances have been match winning, dominating and table turning so far this seasons. He has inherited the number 10 shirt from Ronaldinho and is carrying it well.

Even his maturity has improved. He never goes to ground and he rides tackles very well. If someone is pulling his shirt he wriggles free and continues his bombardment. It takes very cynical fouls to stop him and while I’m not comparing him to Maradona etc in his ability to take a kick/ride a challenge but I am saying for a modern day footballer where players go to ground at the slightest contact he is a breath of fresh air. He stays on his feet and even when he is constantly fouled he just gets on with it. He should be respected for that at least.

Hmm.. looky:

Born with incredible talent, he had joined the junior club Cebollitas by the age of 10, and had amazed the soccer-crazy nation with his spectacular play while leading his junior team to an unbeaten record of 136 matches and an unprecedented hype for a team at that level. As a child prodigy, Maradona was often a feature as halftime entertainment during first division matches, electrifying the crowds with his many ball tricks, putting on a show which was compared favorably, by both fans and the media, to the matches themselves.

So, it didn't surprise anybody when young Maradona first entered the field in the second half of a match against Talleres, and proceeded to nutmeg an opponent with one of his first touches of the ball. After that first match, he became an undisputed starter and team leader, leading what was a mediocre bottom-of-the-table and often relegated club to not only remain in the top division but contend for the title. He played 166 matches and scored 116 goals for the humble team of La Paternal, with a best finish of second place in the league. In spite of his many later successes, fans of Argentinos Juniors will argue vehemently that they are the ones who got the best play from Diego Maradona.

In February of 1977, national team coach Cesar Menotti called the 16 year old Maradona for his first international match, a friendly against Hungary at Boca Juniors stadium. Sitting on the bench, Diego watched as Argentina built a 5-1 lead. But the crowd could only think of him, constantly chanting his name, pleading for his inclusion into the game. Twenty five minutes from the end Menotti gave in, and he amazingly took control of the match, coolly maneuvering through the Hungarian defense like a veteran and setting up several scoring chances. However, from the reaction of the crowd Menotti realized the pressure he'd be under to play Maradona, and since he'd already chosen his conductor in Mario Kempes, he decided to leave Maradona out of the squad which went on to win the World Cup in 1978. It is said that when Maradona found out that he was left out of the team, he cried uncontrollably for hours. It was small consolation for him that Menotti called him for the junior squad, and he went on to play brilliantly and win the youth cup for Argentina in 1979.

In 1981, Maradona was transfered for a record fee to Boca Juniors, one of the two historic 'big' clubs of Buenos Aires. At the time Boca was struggling and had not won a title in over four years. Although Boca had finished the previous season near the bottom, the expectation was that with Maradona's addition, along with a new coach in former Boca star Silvio Marzolini, the team was preordained to win the title. Maradona didn't dissapoint. Not only he led Boca to the Argentine championship, his first at the first division level, but he saved his best effort for the most important match, the 'superclasico' against archrival River Plate.

Boca vs River, April 10, 1981. That was the night which defined Diego Maradona forever as an idol and symbol of Boca Juniors. River had built an impressive team, led by several members of the 1978 world champions. But on that night, Maradona established himself as the superior player in Argentina. Boca trashed River 3-0, with Maradona scoring all three goals. One of them was perhaps the most brilliant goal of his career. Maradona took the ball from inside his own half and kept it close to his feet while effortlessly leaving his opponents, including WC stars Gallego, Pasarella and Tarantini, in his wake. He came face to face with legendary goalkeeper Fillol and dribbled around him. He needed one last faint, as Tarantini had managed to sneak behind the goalkeeper in a last defensive effort. And he left the hapless Tarantini spread-eagled at the goal line as he side-stepped one last time to walk the ball into the net. The crowd was sent into a frenzy, and the sheer emotion of the moment caused coach Silvio Marzolini to have a heart attack.

Marzolini survived and Boca won the title after a brilliant campaign. From midfield, Maradona continued to amaze. He led the team not only as a playmaker but as the top goalscorer. However, not all was good news. In the midst of an economic crisis, Boca was unable to keep the financial commitments it had made for Maradona, and the team was embroiled in lawsuits and financial troubles. Maradona was also beggining to show some strain and signs of physical and mental fatigue. And how could it have been otherwise? By the age of 20 he had already played over 200 first division matches, in addition to internationals and friendlies. He had scored nearly 140 goals. Of course, the scoring figure underestimates his contributions to the game, as a midfield general, creative force and generator of scoring chances for his teammates, as anybody who has watched him play can testify.

That was at a time when like Brazil, most great Argentines were in their home league.

Maradona was a born leader of men. It didn't just happen to be when he got to Europe.
 
I know all about Maradona, i've read his biography.

The same stuff can honestly be said of Messi, like when he played pre season against Juve aged 16 i think and Capello etc was going on about how he would take football by storm. He was 17 playing in the youth world cup where he had the same impact as maradona had at his youth world cup.

He didn't ever have the opertunity to play in argentina at a mid level club to stand out the way maradona did. He has been at barca since a young age and been competing with some of the best players in the world at one of the biggest clubs in the world sinse he was old enough to play.

I wouldn't write off Messi quite yet.
 
I wouldn;t agree with the listed teams. RM have been shite for a long while now and their defence is atrocious

But I agree with most of your post except the surpassing Ronaldo bit. He won't do that, imo.

Both RM and Juventus were managed by Capello when Messi took them apart and Villareal were strong that season reaching the CL semis and second spot in the La Liga when Messi played a blinder against them. Werder were the Bundesliga champions and Barca thrashed Bayern by four goals in their own back yard in a preseason match with Messi running the show. Not all were run on the mill teams either and its the impact made by a 18-20 year footballer who was used few and far between.

Talent wise he was up there with Fat Ronaldo...the only difference being Barca broke the world record to grab him from PSV and unleashed him in full flow, not bothered to protect or groom him. As for Messi although he was electrifying yet played only cameos for the reason Barca had the luxury to wrap him under wool from 04/06 even when he had already made the grade.

Fat Ronaldo was all about frightening pace and finishing, Messi had the pace but not a natural goal scorer to occupy a place in news reels or highlights but his temparament was brilliant apart from the obvious skill - the manner he was gliding with the ball and passing in tight spaces.
Fat Ronaldo pre injuries, almost made in to to Pele, Maradona’s bracket. Messi cannot be bracketed at the same age as for the start Barca never game him 40 plus starts per season for all apparent reasons.
 
Exactly, the point everyone made when Messi started in the first team was his temprement. For such a young player he would do the right things more often than not, little passes and one twos. Just brilliantly simple stuff to unlock defenses.

There was more hype around Bojan when he started due to his record in the youths etc but his impact has been minimal compared to Messis.

Even when Ronaldinho was winning world player of the year awards for fun he said he wasn't even the best player in his team...
 
The thing that separates them is the ability to perform in the big games, I'm sorry but that really should be something Ronaldo can do, and I think he will be able to do some day, but he hasn't yet.

He scored our only goal in the Champions League final and was instrumental in beating Roma as well as Lyon. I think those were pretty big games. European Championship and World Cup are big tournaments too and Ronaldo usually puts in brilliant performances in these, except for the last tournament when all of Portugal squad looked quite average for their standards.
 
Really great players have a certain indefinable aura which Ronaldo hasn't got and Messi has.
 
He scored our only goal in the Champions League final and was instrumental in beating Roma as well as Lyon. I think those were pretty big games. European Championship and World Cup are big tournaments too and Ronaldo usually puts in brilliant performances in these, except for the last tournament when all of Portugal squad looked quite average for their standards.

Perform is the operative word.

Which is what gets lost by those championing Ronaldo all the time. He doesn't perform and display the same brilliance against bigger teams as he does when we're battering the little ones.

Scoring goals is not the be all and end all of such conversations or Gerd Muller would be hailed the greatest ever.
 
Really great players have a certain indefinable aura which Ronaldo hasn't got and Messi has.

It's definiable, though, isn't it?

Presence, charisma, that feeling something special is always about to happen.

It's not intangible. It's very much the thing that earns them the status they have.
 
Exactly, the point everyone made when Messi started in the first team was his temprement. For such a young player he would do the right things more often than not, little passes and one twos. Just brilliantly simple stuff to unlock defenses.

There was more hype around Bojan when he started due to his record in the youths etc but his impact has been minimal compared to Messis.

Even when Ronaldinho was winning world player of the year awards for fun he said he wasn't even the best player in his team...

Your acting like our players never raved about Ronaldo. When Ronaldo 1st came to England at 18 Figo said he'd be too much for English defences. But your right i wont ignore it Ronaldinho was saying that, but i think he was talking about potentiall. Lets not get carried away with the game against Chelsea, it's you so called Messi fan boys that should be ashamed of yourself for bringing it up. Those who had watched him knew he would have been a damager right before quick off, it was so much that the hype was around other players that his performance brought a shock element. But so what you could compare his performance to Walcott against Milan last year, young players with talent do this all the time!!
 
Perform is the operative word.

Which is what gets lost by those championing Ronaldo all the time. He doesn't perform and display the same brilliance against bigger teams as he does when we're battering the little ones.

Scoring goals is not the be all and end all of such conversations or Gerd Muller would be hailed the greatest ever.

Neither is dribbling or Ryan Giggs would have probably got some world awards!!
 
Your acting like our players never raved about Ronaldo. When Ronaldo 1st came to England at 18 Figo said he'd be too much for English defences. But your right i wont ignore it Ronaldinho was saying that, but i think he was talking about potentiall. Lets not get carried away with the game against Chelsea, it's you so called Messi fan boys that should be ashamed of yourself for bringing it up. Those who had watched him knew he would have been a damager right before quick off, it was so much that the hype was around other players that his performance brought a shock element. But so what you could compare his performance to Walcott against Milan last year, young players with talent do this all the time!!

How can you compare a 20min cameo against an aging Milan side to 90mins of unrelented attacking against Mourinhos chelsea side?
 
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